They would do their best to destroy the development of humanity in their children to ensure that their kids are the robots that serve the white masters best.
Yo dude. I just set of a truth nuke. Can ya dig it?!
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Finland's education success = equity not competitiveness. Can US Learn?
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They would do their best to destroy the development of humanity in their children to ensure that their kids are the robots that serve the white masters best.
Trent Strong
Banned
Maybe you're right. I've just always heard the pussification argument brought up when people are talking about extracurricular stuff like sports, where everyone gets a trophy and no one wins. Maybe it's the same idea here with academics though. I don't think many people in the US, even big time bootstrappers, or pussification proponents would argue against the idea that every "child should have exactly the same opportunity to learn, regardless of family background, income, or geographic location." They would agree that everyone should have an equal opportunity to achieve, but just that achievers and non-achievers shouldn't be equally rewarded.
ChiTownBuffalo
Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
As long as they make more money. That's all that matters. Oh, and marrying within the race.
Once you go black, other Asians don't want anything to do with you. Still dealing with the reprecussions of that one.
Trent Strong
Banned
The hell? Unless I'm reading that article wrong, high school in Finland is voluntary? A: that sounds insane, and B: wouldn't that help explain why Finland's high school kids have higher test scores, since smarter kids would stay in school and the not-so-smart kids would leave?
SabinFigaro
Member
I quite like this requirement. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends and peers from undergrad drifted into teacher's college as their fallback, or if they were unsure what to do next. Having a Master's requirement would certainly separate them from others who are passionate about teaching.
Then again, what is the cost and time commitment of an advanced degree in this case? The educators I know with such a degree are in administration, as it is generally a prerequisite. Also, yes, unions blah blah blah.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
I did not know this. It might make Finland the only country whose school system I would actually support.
ThisWreckage
Banned
The U.S. houses a lot of scientists, engineers, inventors, etc. yet our economy still rests firmly in the shitter on top of our health care being terrible.
Up until secondary level I'd agree, but university education isn't a right.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Wikipedia isn't conclusive either, but I just asked a Finnish friend about it.
Edit: The quote is wikipedia, my friend hasn't replied.
Edit 2: The world rankings are based on 15 year olds, so even if it is voluntary after your 16th/17th year, it wouldn't affect test scores at age 15.
Edit 3: After your 16th/17th you are free to not go to school or do one of the above mentioned schools. Source: Finnish person.
Edit 4: I didn't even think of this but it's the exact same in Holland. After your 16th you're not obligated to go to school anymore.
Why?
Finland's education system consists of these things:
- Primary education; classes 1-9, ages 7-15.
- Secondary education; kids can choose whether they go to upper secondary school (aka high scool) or vocational school (aka trade school/career school), ages 16-19
- University level; Here options are either university or university of applied sciences
Only primary education is mandatory but almost everyone get a secondary degree since you don't get a job with just primary education. That's why test results with other countries are comparable. All the schools are free so that's not a barrier to enter a school either.
Rocket Scientist
Member
I see real Finnish people answered the question better =) 15 is young...
Because we have to have enough people who are willing/forced to clean our toilets. The education is a right/is not a right discussion is meaningless anyway. The only thing that matters is what is best for a nation/the world. Unfortunately for the is not a right people, the real world clearly shows it should be a right.
What about the east asians?, their students are still near genius level thanks to memorization.
Wat?, why you disagree?.
Wat?, why you disagree?.
Trent Strong
Banned
Interesting. So it's not affecting test scores, and Finland's high school doesn't correspond with American high school exactly. Welp, America needs to do something about it's educational system, because it ain't working.
Something Wicked
Member
Massachusetts requires teachers to eventually obtain a Master's degree. However, a Master's in Education does very little to prove one's ability to teach calculus, biology, chemistry, or physics. People having degrees in "General Education" and teaching the more robust, technical classes, as listed above, is one of the main problems for overall US high school test scores.
That said, Mass public schools are the top rated in the country- but that has a lot to do with the sheer quantity of college graduates in the state from the high number of colleges and universities in Mass as well.
That said, Mass public schools are the top rated in the country- but that has a lot to do with the sheer quantity of college graduates in the state from the high number of colleges and universities in Mass as well.
ThisWreckage
Banned
The primary problem with American education is standardized testing. Students are taught to remember material for a test and that so-called knowledge is totally forgotten right after the test is taken.
Story time?
cartoon_soldier
Member
In some Schools and teachers...maybe. From what I see, the focus is generally on the standardized test scores as that determines everything for the School.
It is also ridiculous the amount of homework my friend's kids in 1st grade and Pre-K have in SC. Being from India, I never did that kind of homework everyday.
It's not just the master's degree but selective teacher training classes as well. And that is coupled with high teacher pay.
Just read this on Andrew Sullivan few days back:
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/12/paying-teachers-more-really-works.html
A: it's not insane, it's just how it is. However most continue to secondary education. 8.9% didn't continue to secondary level, almost all applied but didn't get the place they wanted. Less than two precent don't show up. ( http://www.stat.fi/til/khak/2010/khak_2010_2011-12-13_tie_001_en.html )
The secondary school is divided into two: one is vocotional school and the other academic.
In vocotional school you train for a job. Electricians, hair dressers, cooks... go through vocotional school - these are usually the sought after places many fail to get, but they usually try again next year.
There is a possibility to take one more year in primary school to get your grades up for the next secondary school selection round.
In the international test both academic and vocotional schools are tested.
B: No. edit: ok, this was reactionary no, need to dig up some statistics. However vast majority goes through secondary education in some part of their life, and all the institutions are counted in these tests (even special education schools)
ChiTownBuffalo
Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
I dated a black girl in college. Wasn't real popular with alot of both of our friends. we both ended up losing friends over it. She took me home to.Atlanta for Thanksgiving one year. Most interesting/awkward/soul affirming Thanksgiving ever.
We split amicably, but fucking Koreans in my town could let that shit go. One evening, I wad at a Korean bar, and this asshat I knew from college was giving me shit about it. Super racist shit. I eventually broke a bottle on the side of his head, permanently disfigured him. Cops weren't called, on account of over half the patrons being underaged or holding drugs. So I got lucky.
That really sucks man.
I think one important factor in Finnish education is that teacher's profession is still generally seen as an important and desired profession. I don't know what kind of genius brainwashing technique Finnish government has invented but I know many people who want to be teachers. Having motivation for the job ensures the quality of the education more than any master's degree could.
chaostrophy
Member
Good article. I'm American born and raised, so I grew up thinking the hyper-competitiveness of our culture was normal and good. But the more I read about how the rest of the world works, the more I realize it's a national neurosis holding us back, sort of like North Korea's Dear Leader personality cult.
Something Wicked
Member
Yeah... that graph barely leads to that conclusion. The variance is massive- in which teachers in Finland and the US are paid roughly the same. If anything that graph demonstrates that teacher's pay is not a major factor in student performance. Andrew Sullivan clearly did not receive his Master's in mathematics.
Though I'll say average pay for teachers is not all too useful of a stat either, as there are guaranteed pay raises, medical benefits, and eventual pension benefits for teachers. I'm not sure what the average of those are throughout many different countries.
Also, there's no way Israeli students test that low. Those stats must include the West Bank and maybe Gaza.
ThisWreckage
Banned
All students chase here in America is a perfect GPA. You can't give someone a bad grade anymore because parents will get involved and lecture you on how you've ruined their child's life.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Yeah that's what I was thinking. That graph doesn't exactly have the tightest fit.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This was a major theme of the good ol' political discussions around the Christmas dinner this year: how America has a problem (the subject was healthcare in this case) where we can't admit that anyone else might have done something better then us, and we think that we need a uniquely American, built from the ground up system.
cartoon_soldier
Member
The problem with that study too is that it using standardized test scores accross multiple countries and comparing salaries in US Dollars. Better to read the article though.
In some Schools and teachers...maybe. From what I see, the focus is generally on the standardized test scores as that determines everything for the School.
It is also ridiculous the amount of homework my friend's kids in 1st grade and Pre-K have in SC. Being from India, I never did that kind of homework everyday.
It's not just the master's degree but selective teacher training classes as well. And that is coupled with high teacher pay.
Just read this on Andrew Sullivan few days back:
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/12/paying-teachers-more-really-works.html
for the testing stuff, what's noteworthy about america in many respects is how little standardized tests matter, particularly when it comes to getting higher education. not unique, but there are many other countries that place a greater emphasis.
richer countries will tend to have more money to spend on teacher's salaries. the basic claim here isn't outlandish, but there needs to be a good control for that. also, teacher tenure has the effect of reducing teacher salaries. tradeoffs, etc;
Student teacher studies is a part of the 5-ish years it'll take to get a Bachelor's & Master's degree (for teachers who teach children ages 13 and up, or languages). The thing is, say a person is studying to become a biology/geography teacher (those are always teached by the same teacher in Finland), he doesn't have to take quite as many courses of biology & geography as a biology & geography major, some of it is replaced by courses of Education Sciences as well as plain teaching training. We actually get to practice teaching in a real school with the "real" teacher guiding/mentoring us for about 6 months (at first it's just a few single classes that you might teach with a friend, but further along a two-person student teacher team can plan and teach a whole course, though all classes are taught alone). The thing is, that's our practical training and we don't get paid for it, whereas (continuing with biology students as an example) a biology major who isn't studying to become a biology/geography teacher has a mandatory practical training period within their own profession (2-3 months) and they get paid for it. That's one way they save money a little bit.SabinFigaro said:
All-in-all the cost to educate new teachers in Finland is higher than in many other countries, but the results are so good that it's really worth it. Though, the teacher's profession IS starting to get so hard/demanding for the teachers that there are quite a lot of people who teach for maybe 2-3 years and then leave for something else (more & more is asked of us while parents at home do less, leading to us having some impossible tasks required of us in addition to just teaching).
It's part "you have slightly better chance of getting a job than in some other professions" and part a calling/wanting to spread knowledge around. I'm interested in many sciences, but I have no desire to actually be a scientist, the everyday work of one just doesn't seem too attractive to me. But spreading around all the awesome knowledge scientists find out? I'm up for that. There are some other professions I'd be interested in, but I'm quite realistic of my skills so they just don't seem like wise choices. For example, I'd be interested in doing some woodwork, but I'm too clumsy from my hands to do it as a profession. I'd also love to be a musician or a writer, but those aren't that attractive from a pure "how likely it is to be successful in such professions in Finland" POV. Then there are those "behind-the-desk" jobs, but I hate the idea of doing the same thing every day with little to no change. As a teacher, I can actually do something that can matter at least to some childrens' lives and I'm not tied to doing the same routine everyday, plus everyday can be a bit different (you can teach a lot of subjets in different ways so you can mix things up if they start to get boring to you during the years and all classes are a bit different, so teaching some subject to one class can be a completely different experience from teaching it to some other one).
Ela Hadrun
Probably plays more games than you
Teachers' unions would be THRILLED to participate in a system that allowed for more creative play, less homework, and a focus on reducing social inequality. We entered this profession to make a difference in the lives of children who needed us by helping them to creatively synthesize knowledge. Not to grade worksheets.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Why don't you read the report and try to find out. I'm appalled and disgusted by your comment.
http://www.jnews.org.uk/commentary/the-oecd-has-lost-4-million-palestinians
If you look at the statistics on OECD's own website you will see that everything pertains to Israel and not the Palestinian territories. It's not counting Gaza or the West Bank.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/country-statistical-profile-israel_20752288-table-isr
Not to mention, that Teachers' Union in Finland is as big and powerful as any union anywhere. I don't know any teachers here who are not members. There must be something else than those darn unions meddling with education.
Just read this on Andrew Sullivan few days back:
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/12/paying-teachers-more-really-works.html
It's pretty obvious why other countries suck in the PISA studies. In my country, most young people who are teachers don't want to work as a teacher longer than 5, 6 years. Too much work for the salary, too much stress for the joy of teaching. And too many forces which work against the teachers. It's a wonder we still got not so bad results in these studies.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Are you kidding me? A system that requires less homework, meaning less grading? They'd go for it. Let's stop with the classic republican "LULZ teachers unions are the devil" crap.
There is WAY too much emphasis on standardized testing in the U.S.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Adam Carolla did not drop out of high school. He graduated.
May as well have. He was illiterate into his 20s.
Too many people are herded into university (at least here in the UK) into shit degrees that are worth fuck all just because the government want a certain percentage of kids heading to uni (something like 50% iirc), an awful lot of people will make uni seem like the be all and end all when vocational training is a perfectly good way to make your way in the world.
Plus (at least here) uni is free at the point of entry so no one is being stopped from going if they want to providing they have the academic ability.
Adam Carolla is literate now?
2 and 1/2 months. Keep your facts straight
It's really not even 2 and a half months. You can't just be on your vacation for that time and then go back to school the same day as all the students do, you have to plan the Fall ahead of school actually starting.
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