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[PsionBolt]

Oh, hey, on the topic of FE6 - remember how that game made its gaiden chapters and endgame hard? A huge chunk of their difficulty came from the Berserk staff, Sleep staff, Silence staff, and Bolting tome. Now imagine those chapters with no durability! Though, I suppose you could just not imagine them instead after you found a Warp staff that would never break. Oh well.

...Of course, if you're like most people and consider FE6's long-range spam unfun / poor design, this might not be a very convincing point, but hey. When I think FE6, I think Berserk, and it seemed relevant.

 

[theprodigy]

yeah, after reading the replies in here...

no wonder why AAA games are designed the way they are now

 

[Yoshi]

I think this is great news. Durability is annoying and it's not really possible to properly plan around durability, because you'd need to know in advance what's coming up. I don't like ressource management, it's way less interesting than map-planning and experience distribution. However, never again should Fire Emblem offer the option to grind, this is completely anti-strategic and dumb.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

I'm fine with this change.

1) It will allow me to use some of those stronger weapons instead of having everyone stick to replaceable silver weapons with the odd brave weapon or unit weakness weapon.

2) Perhaps they will use this as an opportunity to make special weapons more limited. I'm not just talking about ultimate weapons either. Tactics would change quite a bit if you could only get 1-2 brave axes or armor slayers in the game.

Now here's someone using their noggin. That would be a welcome change to me. Making weapons fewer and more specialized could be interesting.

Phoenix mode is fine if they really are making the route that much harder.

 

[-Horizon-]

I agree with the posts about hoarding, that happens to me.

 

[Aexact]

Oh, hey, on the topic of FE6 - remember how that game made its gaiden chapters and endgame hard? A huge chunk of their difficulty came from the Berserk staff, Sleep staff, Silence staff, and Bolting tome. Now imagine those chapters with no durability! Though, I suppose you could just not imagine them instead after you found a Warp staff that would never break. Oh well.

...Of course, if you're like most people and consider FE6's long-range spam unfun / poor design, this might not be a very convincing point, but hey. When I think FE6, I think Berserk, and it seemed relevant.

OH MAN, what if they brought back status ailment staffs?! Enemies will Berserk and Sleep and Bolt you all day long, it'll be amazing!

 

[Blackquill]

I'm just bummed about how IS does everything to gather more newcomers to the series and doesn't give you a option to turn on or off weapon durability.

That's incredibly respectful for their loyal fans who liked this...

 

[Instro]

Durability systems mostly suck. They're either a cheap form of draining cash on upkeep to "balance" a weak economy in a game, or they end up just discouraging players from experimenting with a range of good equipment.

If removing durability means and increase in actual combat challenge and encouraging players to freely try new weapons out when they get them without worrying about "wasting" them, then it's a good change.

Definitely agree here. I have that "better save this for when I really need it" problem a lot.

 

[Esque7]

I'm just bummed about how IS does everything to gather more newcomers to the series and doesn't give you a option to turn on or off weapon durability.

That's incredibly respectful for their loyal fans who liked this...

If they somehow balance the game around weapons not having durability, it would seem like a strange and potentially game breaking option to include.

 

[CoconutTank]

Yes, that game is called Fire Emblem Gaiden and weapons were indeed limited. There weren't any shops in the game.

I like that idea. Particularly if there are no shops in the game and weapon counts are limited, then class diversity would be better encouraged as well.

Hopefully pairing units up won't make them become invincible in this game, though I'm glad to hear that CPU units can pair up as well.

Phoenix mode sounds super dumb though imo.

Edit: If we wanted a compromise on this idea, then how about the following

1) No shops in the game.

2) Weapons still have a durability metric, but are usable at 0 durability. At 0 durability, weapons will have 50% effectiveness and no special abilities.

3) Armories will be available so that players can go and repair their weapons back to full durability.

 

[NeonZ]

I'm just bummed about how IS does everything to gather more newcomers to the series and doesn't give you a option to turn on or off weapon durability.

That's incredibly respectful for their loyal fans who liked this...

Eh, that really wouldn't be good though. Either they're balancing the game around limited use weapons or they aren't. There's really no middle ground to allow a turn on/turn off option.

They're making the Noir campaign to appeal to FE fans who want the linear map progression and variable objectives, but changing something like that would require the entire weapon system to be rebalanced.

 

[stoff]

I feel the durability system was in need of an overhaul once they allowed purchases outside of chapters. Removing it is the lazy way out though, and i wonder whether or not we'll even see stuff like ranged magic, brave weapons, status ailments or consumables now.
In fact Radiant Dawn's Endgame kinda removed durability as well, and suffered a lot from it in my eyes.

Pheonix Mode is hilarious. Why just not add AlwaysDodge&AlwaysCrit Mode?

 

[chaosblade]

I think it can work without weapon durability if weapons are handled well. They should be less common and more expensive/difficult to obtain, so you have to carefully decide who should have what weapon due to the limited quantities.

 

[Aexact]

Pheonix Mode is hilarious. Why just not add AlwaysDodge&AlwaysCrit Mode?

Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the reasoning there. If it's for people who just want to experience the story, why not remove the battles altogether and add a few lines of text for any incidental battle banter. Even if you have that mode, without the minimum basics used in Easy mode, I imagine they'd eventually have to resort to zerg rushing the enemy if they didn't understand what units are good vs. what.

I mean, people are like "more choices is good" but feels like a redundant choice.

 

[zashga]

Could be cool, we'll see. I liked the old durability system because it added a layer of resource management that otherwise wasn't there. Fire Emblem doesn't have MP like a lot of other strategy RPGs, and it was an elegant way to balance super powerful weapons/spells. Will be interested to see how they rebalance the game without it.

Phoenix mode sounds like it will be completely unlosable.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the reasoning there. If it's for people who just want to experience the story, why not remove the battles altogether and add a few lines of text for any incidental battle banter. Even if you have that mode, without the minimum basics used in Easy mode, I imagine they'd eventually have to resort to zerg rushing the enemy if they didn't understand what units are good vs. what.

I mean, people are like "more choices is good" but feels like a redundant choice.

Persona 4 still made us slog through boring dungeons and battles. Removing parts of the game will make it anemic.

 

[QuixoticNeutral]

Not fond of this change at all, especially if it leaks over into the Nohr mode. The appeal of no-grinding, linear Fire Emblem in the older style was always in its added layer of complexity as a resource management game. The addition of the world map in Sacred Stones and Awakening didn't just introduce grinding as a fallback, but also unlimited shopping, which in some respects completely breaks the game (Awakening is hilarious to play through if you load up all your casters with Rescue staves and zip around the map). Even in Awakening, some of the tensest moments for me involved tanking a ton of incoming damage with a single pair of characters, fending off twenty enemies in a single turn while taking next to no damage, and ensuring they would have the weapon durability to fight back.

I wouldn't mind a compromise where standard weapons are unbreakable (but are balanced by other factors) while staves, high-crits, and rare weapons are still finite, but it's hard to see removing durability on the whole as something that opens up options to both the designer and the player instead of shutting them down. The weapon system in Awakening was already very streamlined, and while I was glad to be rid of weapon weights (always very fussy to calculate around), the lack of a magic triangle or any meaningful distinction between tomes was already a problem, mitigated only by the fact that you couldn't just use the most powerful ones all the time.

Infinite shopping makes the durability mechanic somewhat obsolete, it's true, as you just stock up on weapons again between maps. But that breaks a lot of the game as it is, and in the absence of unlimited shopping—as may be the case in the Nohr path—finitude is where the magic happens.

 

[HK-47]

This. As long as they increase the level of challenge to compensate for these changes, I'll be happy. If not... sigh.

I dont know why you'd expect this coming off of Awakening.

 

[Aexact]

Persona 4 still made us slog through boring dungeons and battles. Removing parts of the game will make it anemic.

I liked the Persona 4 battles!

And if people don't like those parts anyway, maybe the game should try out adding the no-battle game mode. It'll be optional, other people can get their battles if them want em.

 

[Higgins113]

Another degree of strategy gone

"This is good"
???

 

[Adaren]

To those worried about difficulty, Phoenix Mode should be a welcome sign. Adding easier options has historically been an indicator that the developers are upping the difficulty of the base game and are worried that some players won't be able to complete it.

 

[autoduelist]

Durability is, as many have said, a mechanic that needs to be carefully implemented. If strictly limited usage with no way to repair, it makes many gamers simply hoard all good weapons and never use them for fear of breakage. I know I do that myself.

I'm perfectly fine with durability that can be repaired, though that makes more sense in a game with dungeoneering or exploration where you eventually need to turn around to go get healed/repaired, and less sense on a srpg battlefield where you just repair everything in between missions [turning it into busy work rather than risk/reward].

'Charges' might be an acceptable middle ground. Some games have powerful weapons with unique abilities [say, fire sword] that you can only use so many times... perhaps for an SRPG, that would make sense. Your fire sword needs to be activated [flame on!] and lasts X turns, but can only be turned on Y times per battle. It's still a decent sword while 'off'. A powerful ice staff might only be usable once per battle. This would allow a sort of durability that didn't make many not use it at all, and also make it feel like you could judge when best to use it since limitations are within the scope of a single battle, not the entire battle.

I think weapon charges might be a really nice middleground, actually. You get durability, but still feel like you can safely use them w/o losing them.

 

[Overside]

I'm always baffled how many people never use the good weapons. They are right there!

NOOOO.

They are good, and they only have a limited number of uses!

That means you must ALWAYS have them taking up an inventory slot, in case you need to use them.

But you NEVER use them, unless its absolutely necessary -

Wait, if i do this and this... I dont have to use it.

Chapters later:

Oh hes tough, wait, i can do this and.....

'Congratulations. You beat Game'

Oh. Well, guess ill use this lengendary sword for landscaping.

 

[Enduin]

I don't get the hate for Phoenix Mode. It doesn't affect the normal gameplay at all for those of us who play on Hard or Lunatic with Perma Death on. Especially when they mention it as a reaction to the difficulty of the Nohr campaign, which is a hopeful sign to the challenge that will provide.

Some people just aren't good at these types of games and Casual mode, while great for removing perma death and forced chapter restarts because who is actually going to accept a character death, doesn't help if you just aren't good at the game and don't fully grasp the mechanics. Having a character get beat but not die so they can participate in the next chapter doesn't do too much good if you are having trouble beating the current chapter and don't have enough units to win the battle.

Phoenix Mode now offers an additional aid for new players and those unfortunates who just really suck at this game but want to get better and enjoy the setting and story. It's a learning tool as much as it is a crutch. You try things out, win or lose, your character revives on the next turn and you go from there.

It gives those players a means to play the game and learn at their leisure while not requiring IS to alter the encounters anymore than they would have normally. Easy mode doesn't need to be completely dumbed down to complete trash mobs, it can still retain some degree of challenge for those who aren't ready for Normal but still might want to play the game without PM or Casual Mode.

 

[shadow2810]

Another degree of strategy gone

"This is good"
???

Has durability ever been part of strategy? All I see is hoarding, hoarding and hoarding.

 

[McNum]

Nine save slots. Three more per DLC campaign. So 9+3+3... Fifteen save slots. Hell yeah.

Phoenix Mode seems, eh, I won't use it. Except maybe for a for laughs "We're superheroes!" game where I just throw caution to the wind and charge. Because, well, I'll have save slots to spare for a humorously reckless game. Still, I won't hate on an optional easier difficulty. I'll likely go Normal/Classic as usual.

As for Durability, well. I won't miss it as such. Maybe this means you get fewer weapons, but they last the full game. It opens up for characters being built around weapons, getting a signature style and such. I'm neutral on that. It reduces some mental overhead, but at the cost of some resource management. So... I'll have to see this in the full context of the game to judge it.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I don't get the hate for Phoenix Mode. It doesn't affect the normal gameplay at all for those of us who play on Hard or Lunatic with Perma Death on. Especially when they mention it as a reaction to the difficulty of the Nohr campaign, which is a hopeful sign to the challenge that will provide.

Some people just aren't good at these types of games and Casual mode, while great for removing perma death and forced chapter restarts because who is actually going to accept a character death, doesn't help if you just aren't good at the game and don't fully grasp the mechanics. Having a character get beat but not die so they can participate in the next chapter doesn't do too much good if you are having trouble beating the current chapter and don't have enough units to win the battle.

Phoenix Mode now offers an additional aid for new players and those unfortunates who just really suck at this game but want to get better and enjoy the setting and story. It's a learning tool as much as it is a crutch. You try things out, win or lose, your character revives on the next turn and you go from there.

It gives those players a means to play the game and learn at their leisure while not requiring IS to alter the encounters anymore than they would have normally. Easy mode doesn't need to be completely dumbed down to complete trash mobs, it can still retain some degree of challenge for those who aren't ready for Normal but still might want to play the game without PM or Casual Mode.

Phoenix mode still doesn't ensure absolute victory as defeat conditions may not be exclusive to the Lord/units dying. Plus, we don't know if the Lord dying forces a loss or not.

 

[Kirie]

The only time I can see myself using Phoenix Mode, is to potentially help fill out my support log on the Nohr side if we actually can't end up grinding them.

I have a couple of friends who are interested in the mode though, so I don't really mind it being included.

 

[Aexact]

Some people just aren't good at these types of games and Casual mode, while great for removing perma death and forced chapter restarts because who is actually going to accept a character death, doesn't help if you just aren't good at the game and don't fully grasp the mechanics. Having a character get beat but not die so they can participate in the next chapter doesn't do too much good if you are having trouble beating the current chapter and don't have enough units to win the battle.

I guess that makes sense. I did think Casual mode and Easy mode were sufficient in terms of lowest difficulty setting but I suppose Phoenix Mode will prevent all the EXP funneling into the Jeigan, since they'll be the last surviving unit if the player don't get the mechanics.

Wonder if the royal blood mechanics are part of the reason. Needing specific units alive to activate their special abilities so Phoenix Mode prevents the loss of the map in lieu of Casual Mode.

I mean, doesn't feel like it properly portrays the weight of consequence in the spirit of Fire Emblem, but that's been a mutable measure anyway.

 

[QuixoticNeutral]

Has durability ever been part of strategy? All I see is hoarding, hoarding and hoarding.

It is so, so obvious in this thread who plays Fire Emblem at a high level and who doesn't.

Hoarding, or rather, saving a low-durability item on your character for a rainy day, can really get you out of a pinch. There are good reasons why you might want to keep Physic on your healers as an emergency button, but it would spoil a great deal of the positional game (of moving your healers up while keeping them protected) if they could just spam Physic every turn.

No complaints about Phoenix Mode from me, just like I had no complaints about Casual Mode; so long as the game is adequately balanced to play Fire Emblem the proper way, I'm as free to ignore them as I am free to ignore the special blocks in Mario games that show up if you die too many times. I don't mind new players getting a crutch. What I do mind is when design decisions that reduce the versatility of the game take away the granularity that allows for the emergence of expert play. That casual players don't use advanced options, or don't use them well, isn't a reason to take those options away.

 

[Enduin]

Phoenix mode still doesn't ensure absolute victory as defeat conditions may not be exclusive to the Lord/units dying. Plus, we don't know if the Lord dying forces a loss or not.

Good points, if those are still in place that would be even further evidence it's a tool for learning more than it's just some gameplay skipping mode for those who can't be bothered.

I guess that makes sense. I did think Casual mode and Easy mode were sufficient in terms of lowest difficulty setting but I suppose Phoenix Mode will prevent all the EXP funneling into the Jeigan, since they'll be the last surviving unit if the player don't get the mechanics.

Wonder if the royal blood mechanics are part of the reason. Needing specific units alive to activate their special abilities so Phoenix Mode prevents the loss of the map in lieu of Casual Mode.

I mean, doesn't feel like it properly portrays the weight of consequence in the spirit of Fire Emblem, but that's been a mutable measure anyway.

It might not be in spirit, but I don't really care how other people play the game. That's on them. All I care about is whether it will affect my experience with the game and as far as I can tell this is the kind of system that helps preserve the core of the game, while still providing relief and assistance for those who need it. Win win really.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not a fan of them taking out weapon durability. Or the Phoenix mode. They are really streamlining this series. I can already see people hiding the main lords that cause a game over in a safe area and just go rambo with the other units because they will just pop up the next turn.

You don't have to play Phoenix mode of course but the fact it exists is disconcerting to me.

But no the lack of weapon durability is upsetting. Weapons better be double the usual cost to supplement this.

 

[The12thGripper]

I hated durability but that's because I'm a casual. Gonna like this change.

 

[patapuf]

It is so, so obvious in this thread who plays Fire Emblem at a high level and who doesn't.

Hoarding, or rather, saving a low-durability item on your character for a rainy day, can really get you out of a pinch. There are good reasons why you might want to keep Physic on your healers as an emergency button, but it would spoil a great deal of the positional game (of moving your healers up while keeping them protected) if they could just spam Physic every turn.

Jep, recognising at which spots using a good item is worthwhile and when it isn't does add strategy. It can make the difference between needing to repeat the map a few times or just breezing through it.

A player that never uses high level items wastes his resources just as much as a player that uses up the high level item in one map.

These tactical mistakes aren't as punishing as character death - but they do add a tactical layer to the game. And while i love fire emblem, it needs more tactical layers beyond "avoid character death" not less. At least it does if FE aspires to be a good strategy game.

 

[Boney]

Another thing they could do is make character specific weapons outside of iron weapons.
For example, only warrior A is proficient with throwing axes, while warrior b knows how to use hammers better.

 

[PoweredByHentai]

Welp buying 1/3 of the game and throwing money again to get the 2 others parts is just disgusting.

And yes, the content is as big as Awakening but Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn had a much longer story line and wasn't overpriced for what it was

This.

The fact that the digital version even does a software lock on the story made the whole thing extremely odious to me.

 

[KarmaCow]

I'd have to see how they plan on balancing it but at first glance, considering how Awakening turned out, I don't have much faith in it.

 

[Aexact]

It might not be in spirit, but I don't really care how other people play the game. That's on them. All I care about is whether it will affect my experience with the game and as far as I can tell this is the kind of system that helps preserve the core of the game, while still providing relief and assistance for those who need it. Win win really.

Heh. That's a zen way to look at it.

I'm still acclimating to stuff like swimsuit DLC. I know Fire Emblem has probably had like, I dunno, drama CDs or whatever in the past, I'm just not used to actually seeing it available. Might've made an unfair gut assumption that people playing Phoenix Mode are more in it for that stuff.

Eh, people can enjoy what they want!

 

[Higgins113]

Another thing they could do is make character specific weapons outside of iron weapons.
For example, only warrior A is proficient with throwing axes, while warrior b knows how to use hammers better.

They are never going to add a layer of complexity, only remove them.

 

[Lunar15]

Has durability ever been part of strategy? All I see is hoarding, hoarding and hoarding.

I never hoarded, for what it's worth.

But hey, who knows. We could play it and realize it's not that big of a deal to not have it in there. I'm not going to freak out yet.

If Nohr really does have no world map and limited exp progression, then I'll deal with not having item durability. It's not ideal, but I'll take the other two over that.

 

[galvenize]

As a casual, Hard mode is as far as I've played awakening and I'm glad durability is gone. Didn't feel like weapons to me.

 

[ArcaneFreeze]

This.

The fact that the digital version even does a software lock on the story made the whole thing extremely odious to me.

Remember though we still don't know how they're going to package the game in the West. Japan usually does its own thing, I mean they got P&D Super Mario bros as a standalone title while over here we get a dual pack with P&DZ. They could just as easily give us both games as a dual pack and the third as dlc or even all three. I feel more than anything Japan is just a test to see if the model works.

 

[Frozenprince]

Bold change if true, I'm optimistic about it, the limit made me underuse the good stuff - I'm too conservative player.

This. I get that it instills challenge, but I never use anything above Iron gear until the last level which makes the latter half of the game such a grind. This makes it more accessible and gives you incentive to both make the weapons more unique (thus giving them more effects) and to kit out your members the best you can.

 

[perorist]

This.

The fact that the digital version even does a software lock on the story made the whole thing extremely odious to me.

What do you mean by "software lock"

 

[kamineko]

Confession: I'm a weapon hoarder, too.

The mechanic in previous games is a constraint. There are other ways to constrain the player, naturally. The game can be balanced without it, we will just have to see if they accomplish this.

 

[PoweredByHentai]

Remember though we still don't know how they're going to package the game in the West. Japan usually does its own thing, I mean they got P&D Super Mario bros as a standalone title while over here we get a dual pack with P&DZ. They could just as easily give us both games as a dual pack and the third as dlc or even all three. I feel more than anything Japan is just a test to see if the model works.

True. I had considered importing the game but the news about the forcibly split story squashed that idea.

 

[Draxal]

I guess they can make steel and higher weapons really rare, and make forging weapons more important in the game.

 

[PoweredByHentai]

What do you mean by "software lock"

Read the OP post in this thread:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1021888

Pay attention to the images that are quoted.

Especially this one:

There is only one digital version. After you reach a certain point in chapter 6, you will be forced to choose between the two paths. Once you have selected, you will not be able to choose the other path permanently. The option for the other path is only available via paid DLC.

 

[Frozenprince]

I don't understand why people keep getting unhappy about every change.

Awakening was different, different isn't BAD. You can't just make the same game as FE 4-10 over and over and over. New iterations adding new things and becoming more accessible (given that Awakening is the best selling by far and saved the franchise) isn't a bad thing.

 

[patapuf]

I don't understand why people keep getting unhappy about every change.

Awakening was different, different isn't BAD. You can't just make the same game as FE 4-10 over and over and over. New iterations adding new things and becoming more accessible (given that Awakening is the best selling by far and saved the franchise) isn't a bad thing.

I promise i won't complain when they add things to the strategic layer of FE.

and unless i'm mistaken, apart from "we'll bring map objectives back up to pre awakening standards in one of three campaigns" and new classes they haven't announced anything yet.