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[FStop7]

There's a public safety issue that overrides whether or not someone paid the fee. What if the fire spreads beyond just that one particular home? What about gas lines, power lines, and other hazards?

Put the fire out, send them a bill for the fee. Or 10 times the fee. Whatever.

Stupid.

 

[Gaborn]

And your house isn't reduced to a pile of ashes when the electricity goes out, is it?

Examples like this are pretty damning towards the idea that anyone should be able to "opt out" of paying into the protections we have against major threats to person or property.

You can't opt out of threats to human life. The fire fighters were willing to save people, not property. Don't change the subject.

FStop - It's already been noted the fire department showed up in case the fire spread to a paying member's home.

 

[JGS]

And then the fire department has to spend a bunch of money to get a lien enforced on a shitty property that's not even worth much to begin with. There will be zero incentive for people to pay the fees. I live in a well off HOA and we have people come in here signing contracts that state they have to pay HOA dues and abide by the rules. There are people who just don't give a shit and have $8000 liens on their house because they won't take in their trashcans or pay fines.

It does not take a lot of money to get a lien filing. On top of that, you add it to the costs. It beats suing them for it and no matter how crappy the trailer is, it's worth a couple of hundred. If they never pay, then it's a collection item and you have a noted loss on the fore dept ledgers rather than a bunch of free stuff.

The lien isn't about being paid as much as it is about a public record to prevent others attachhing liens to the property. Plus, it saves the house and prevents the fire dept from looking like scum when they likely want to put the fire out.

So again. People in this thread have wrong-headedly blamed the fire department. Blame the politicians.

Blame the citizens too who would balk at the tax and would still have a lien placed if they didn't pay that.

 

[Evil Benius]

So basically one centralized office is far less efficient than who-the-fuck-knows-how-many-thousand local offices all with their individual boondoggles and blank forms with different watermarks.

Gotcha.

Yes it would be since that one central office would still have to manage local offices who actually know what the hell the local area needs. Unless you are advocating someone 3,000 miles away knowing what a small town of 500 actually needs.

Check this:



http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/10/05/122535/after-firefighters-obion-expands/


So again. People in this thread have wrong-headedly blamed the fire department. Blame the politicians.

Of course it would be a small increase since most of the fire protection needed was already being funded by people in their individual towns. This is just spreading that $75 fee across everyone in the county. Why should I pay higher taxes, no matter how small, just to spread my protection to you. That entire cost should be on the people in those areas.

 

[Puddles]

You can't opt out of threats to human life. The fire fighters were willing to save people, not property. Don't change the subject.

FStop - It's already been noted the fire department showed up in case the fire spread to a paying member's home.

In a few years you won't be able to. IIRC, you currently can. Of course, we still give you medical treatment anyway, then bill you some ridiculous amount for it.

It's basically the same idea, except we've built something of an emergency failsafe switch into the medical side of it.

Examples like this show that the system doesn't really work on any level, except perhaps for auto insurance.

Yes it would be since that one central office would still have to manage local offices who actually know what the hell the local area needs. Unless you are advocating someone 3,000 miles away knowing what a small town of 500 actually needs.

I think we're talking about how the system would be paid for, in which case yes, someone 3,000 miles away knows what those 500 rednecks need. They need to pay their taxes and in turn receive funding for their department.

 

[Gaborn]

In a few years you won't be able to. IIRC, you currently can. Of course, we still give you medical treatment anyway, then bill you some ridiculous amount for it.

It's basically the same idea, except we've built something of an emergency failsafe switch into the medical side of it.

Examples like this show that the system doesn't really work on any level, except perhaps for auto insurance.

Changing the subject. Although, I'm sure people will eventually like the individual mandate. I mean, PPACA is still unpopular solely because of it, but EVENTUALLY. I mean, at some point they have to like it, Obama passed it single handed afterall!

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Reminds me of:

Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department.

Fuck, you made me go to the onion. For more lawls:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/dad-keeps-dropping-hints-about-moms-sexual-procliv,1401/

PHOENIX, AZ—Rodney Granger, 46, a Phoenix-area father of three, drops frequent hints about his wife Sandy's sexual proclivities, his creeped-out children announced Monday.

"Yesterday, we passed a sign on this supermarket loading dock that said 'Deliveries In The Rear.' Dad jabbed Mom, and they both started to laugh," said Andrew, the couple's 13-year-old son. "I acted like I didn't get it, but I got it all right. Apparently, Mom does, too."

Just classic.

On topic, why not just tax them and force them to pay? I don't understand.

 

[Evil Benius]

I think we're talking about how the system would be paid for, in which case yes, someone 3,000 miles away knows what those 500 rednecks need. They need to pay their taxes and in turn receive funding for their department.

I like how someone in a small town immediately has to be a redneck. A ton of bureaucracy would need to exist to make sure the towns need the amount of money they are requesting and most likely mandating a minimum amount of equipment. Not to mention all of the little strings the federal government likes to impose on lower governments in exchange for money. Say hello to the reason the alcohol purchase age is 21 everywhere.

On topic, why not just tax them and force them to pay? I don't understand.

The town with the fire department has no jurisdiction under which to tax people outside of the town.

 

[Segnit]

On topic, why not just tax them and force them to pay? I don't understand.

Because tax is evil.

 

[Dude Abides]

Check this:



http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/10/05/122535/after-firefighters-obion-expands/


So again. People in this thread have wrong-headedly blamed the fire department. Blame the politicians.

Damn. I guess people in Obion county think they are Taxed Enough Already.

 

[entremet]

This is so dumb.

 

[Segnit]

People in this thread have wrong-headedly blamed the fire department. Blame the politicians.

"Blame the politicians" is valid but also a cop-out. Blame the source: Lack of education, extremism, and conservatism.

 

[Puddles]

I like how someone in a small town immediately has to be a redneck. A ton of bureaucracy would need to exist to make sure the towns need the amount of money they are requesting and most likely mandating a minimum amount of equipment. Not to mention all of the little strings the federal government likes to impose on lower governments in exchange for money. Say hello to the reason the alcohol purchase age is 21 everywhere.

WTF? No it wouldn't; they'd could just start with previous 10 year averages, set aside some extra money in a slush fund for emergencies, and approve new spending on a case by case basis. Jesus, I could run that entire operation with a 5 man crew.

Anyway, state run would be better, just so long as a system is set up under which there is no possibility of this kind of thing happening.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

As has been said, blame the County Commissioner.

And if they people demanded this system to preserve "their freedumb and libertiez", then I suppose they can enjoy the first fruits.

 

[Evil Benius]

WTF? No it wouldn't; they'd could just start with previous 10 year averages, set aside some extra money in a slush fund for emergencies, and approve new spending on a case by case basis. Jesus, I could run that entire operation with a 5 man crew.

And this is where I am just going to check out of this argument because you are falling into the realm of pure fantasy. There is not a single federal department that is run that smoothly and compact. Also you might like giving the federal government power over every small thing, but I do not.

 

[fastford58]

When it comes to money...fuck ethics. This is the truth of the current world in which we live and this certainly is not the most egregious example of this truth.

Baa baa black sheep have you any wool? Yessir, yessir....

 

[Puddles]

And this is where I am just going to check out of this argument because you are falling into the realm of pure fantasy.

But you're a conservative...

 

[midonnay]

Meanwhile in nearby Blount County

http://www.thedailytimes.com/Local_...ty-home-burns-as-firefighters-watch-id-018459

While the Blount County Fire Department also employs a subscription service, Fire Chief Doug McClanahan said this situation would never happen in Blount County.

He said the department’s first priority is saving lives and property, whether a resident is a subscriber or not. The difference is that a subscriber, in the event of a fire, would be saving thousands of dollars.

Homeowners can purchase a $110 subscription annually to cover structure fires, car fires or other emergency situations firefighters would normally respond to throughout the year. For nonsubscribers, the fire department charges $2,200 for the first two hours firefighters are on scene and $1,100 for each additional hour.

its just common sense for goodness sake :/

 

[fastford58]

Meanwhile in nearby Blount County

http://www.thedailytimes.com/Local_...ty-home-burns-as-firefighters-watch-id-018459




its just common sense for goodness sake :/

A better way of handling things, but not without ethical pitfalls. Maybe a family can't afford the fee because they are paying for treatment for a cancer sufferer in their family...and then to be saddled with a bill reaching thousands of dollars...

 

[Segnit]

When it comes to money...fuck ethics. This is the truth of the current world in which we live and this certainly is not the most egregious example of this truth.

Baa baa black sheep have you any wool? Yessir, yessir....

That's certainly true and it makes sense too. For example remove humans from the equation and all of a sudden ethics don't matter no more. The fact that human exist means that other conditions have to be met before ethics. Those other conditions include the need for survival and sustainability. Money helps with both those things.

 

[midonnay]

A better way of handling things, but not without ethical pitfalls. Maybe a family can't afford the fee because they are paying for treatment for a cancer sufferer in their family...and then to be saddled with a bill reaching thousands of dollars...

yeah, I know..... in most other countries, its either covered through taxes or a volunteer system.....

but when ideology gets in the way, this is the lesser of two evils

Watching a home burn is just stupid.

 

[fastford58]

That's certainly true and it makes sense too. For example remove humans from the equation and all of a sudden ethics don't matter no more. The fact that human exist means that other conditions have to be met before ethics. Those other conditions include the need for survival and sustainability. Money helps with both those things.

So to be clear, you are saying people with no resources are sub-human? An interesting way of looking at things, and in this climate, as terrible as it sounds, not far from reality.

 

[Segnit]

Its just common sense for goodness sake :/

It's easy to take this out of context and let's not forget that Obion County would beg to differ.

So to be clear, you are saying people with no resources are sub-human? An interesting way of looking at things, and in this climate, as terrible as it sounds, not far from reality.

People with no resources are not alive.

 

[Quixzlizx]

These people should be mad at:

1. Their local/county government for not funding a fire department
2. Themselves (for not paying the fee)

What do you think the chances are that they were gung-ho "no taxes/government is evil" people until they needed what most people would consider a basic service?

For the mad people in this thread: the family did not live under the tax jurisdiction of the fire department. People who live within the city limits are taxed to fund that fire department, and the fire department automatically responds to those people's homes. The fee is a generous offer to service non-taxpayers, because the outlying areas are too cheap to provide people with basic services. Would you be just as mad if a fire department in Oregon refused to show up to a burning home in New York, or a fire department in the UK refused to show up to a home in France? (in a theoretical situation where that was plausible). It's the same concept, only on a more local scale.

 

[fastford58]

yeah, I know..... in most other countries, its either covered through taxes or a volunteer system.....

but when ideology gets in the way, this is the lesser of two evils

Watching a home burn is just stupid.

Absolutely. No perfect system can exist at this juncture, at least not as far as I can see with my limited scope of social understanding.

 

[WedgeX]

These people should be mad at:

1. Their local/county government for not funding a fire department
2. Themselves (for not paying the fee)

What do you think the chances are that they were gung-ho "no taxes/government is evil" people until they needed what most people would consider a basic service?

For the mad people in this thread: the family did not live under the tax jurisdiction of the fire department. People who live within the city limits are taxed to fund that fire department, and the fire department automatically responds to those people's homes. The fee is a generous offer to service non-taxpayers, because the outlying areas are too cheap to provide people with basic services. Would you be just as mad if a fire department in Oregon refused to show up to a burning home in New York, or a fire department in the UK refused to show up to a home in France? (in a theoretical situation where that was plausible). It's the same concept, only on a more local scale.

Assuming, of course, that the people could pay the fee.

 

[Evil Benius]

These people should be mad at:

1. Their local/county government for not funding a fire department
2. Themselves (for not paying the fee)

What do you think the chances are that they were gung-ho "no taxes/government is evil" people until they needed what most people would consider a basic service?

For the mad people in this thread: the family did not live under the tax jurisdiction of the fire department. People who live within the city limits are taxed to fund that fire department, and the fire department automatically responds to those people's homes. The fee is a generous offer to service non-taxpayers, because the outlying areas are too cheap to provide people with basic services.

It is not even that their local government is too cheap, they have no local government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area#United_States

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Reminds me of a thread awhile back where a woman died while two EMT people stood by and did nothing because they were off the clock or something. People shit all over them for that, how is this any different? To sit and watch someones house and belongings burn to the ground over $75 is just fucking cruel. Why even wait around if you aren't going to do shit?

 

[Quixzlizx]

Assuming, of course, that the people could pay the fee.

If you can't afford $75/year in fire insurance, then it's possible you don't have the financial stability to be a homeowner. Especially considering most areas just have that fee built into your property taxes.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Of course it would be a small increase since most of the fire protection needed was already being funded by people in their individual towns. This is just spreading that $75 fee across everyone in the county. Why should I pay higher taxes, no matter how small, just to spread my protection to you. That entire cost should be on the people in those areas.

You're entitled to that opinion, that's why you put it up for a vote in a county election.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Well then the fee shouldn't be optional. But they're outside the district, so apparently there's no way to mandate it.

the district they ARE a part of should be mandating the fee be paid. SOMEONE has to have the jurisdiction for this.

The township may be too small to have its own fire service, but there's no reason they hsouldn't be able to mandate the members of the township pay the firefighter fee to the fire dept in the next district over.

 

[Evil Benius]

You're entitled to that opinion, that's why you put it up for a vote in a county election.

Well I am assuming the decision was made by elected officials.

the district they ARE a part of should be mandating the fee be paid. SOMEONE has to have the jurisdiction for this.

The township may be too small to have its own fire service, but there's no reason they hsouldn't be able to mandate the members of the township pay the firefighter fee to the fire dept in the next district over.

There is no township that they live in. The first level above them is the county which voted to not impose a tax on all citizens to spread coverage into unincorporated areas.

 

[VelvetMouth]

It does not take a lot of money to get a lien filing. On top of that, you add it to the costs. It beats suing them for it and no matter how crappy the trailer is, it's worth a couple of hundred. If they never pay, then it's a collection item and you have a noted loss on the fore dept ledgers rather than a bunch of free stuff.

The lien isn't about being paid as much as it is about a public record to prevent others attachhing liens to the property. Plus, it saves the house and prevents the fire dept from looking like scum when they likely want to put the fire out.
Blame the citizens too who would balk at the tax and would still have a lien placed if they didn't pay that.

And you enforce my point, liens mean nothing to people so how is that an incentive to get people to pay? It costs a lot more to get a lien placed on a house than the $75 fee. The fire department might as well consider it a wash and just put the fire out, but if they do that with one homeowner, why would other homeowners be willing to pay? And why should the tax payers from the county foot the bill for the people in the unincorporated areas? What's going to happen if one of their homes is on fire but the fire department is out taking care of non paying customers?

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Incorrect.

The FD is not paid to protect that area. Hence, the charge to take care of it. If they put out the fire and then took 75 from the individual nobody would ever pay the charge. This could impact the FD's ability to have the funds to take care of that area to begin with.

Letting the house burn is some free market stuff. $75 a year too much? Find a different vendor.

The fire department is not a vendor. It´s a public service. Who else would put fires? What´s wrong with you?

 

[fastford58]

And suddenly I have the urge to watch Gangs of New York.

 

[JGS]

Meanwhile in nearby Blount County

http://www.thedailytimes.com/Local_...ty-home-burns-as-firefighters-watch-id-018459




its just common sense for goodness sake :/

I don't know why overcharging is a common sense approach.

If the normal charge is 110/year I would be countersuing that the several thousand dollar fee is immoral.

 

[VelvetMouth]

You're entitled to that opinion, that's why you put it up for a vote in a county election.

And it wouldn't come as a surprise if the people voted againts having the added tax and instead opted for a $75 fee.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Still has to be paid for. I'm certan that wildfires have a general fund to pull from if not a general fund overall. Rural counties don't have that kind of money and the bulk of it would go to more urban areas anyway. In KY, much of the fire dept in rural areas are volunteer which means that there is no fire dept to put out the fire anyway- fee or not.

Attaching liens to the property until the fee is paid would be a possible solution.

why? The rural areas have more area, harder to get to... there's no reason they'll be getting less out of the system than they put in.

Where do people get this idea that rural areas subsidize urban areas? It is ALWAYS the more densely populated areas that subsidize the less populated areas.

 

[travisbickle]

Good job there's a fee, or everyone would be setting their houses on fire!!

 

[Ninja Scooter]

It does not take a lot of money to get a lien filing. On top of that, you add it to the costs. It beats suing them for it and no matter how crappy the trailer is, it's worth a couple of hundred. If they never pay, then it's a collection item and you have a noted loss on the fore dept ledgers rather than a bunch of free stuff.

The lien isn't about being paid as much as it is about a public record to prevent others attachhing liens to the property. Plus, it saves the house and prevents the fire dept from looking like scum when they likely want to put the fire out.
Blame the citizens too who would balk at the tax and would still have a lien placed if they didn't pay that.

Maybe someone with more legal expertise can chime in here, but can you enforce a lien on people after the fact or do they have to agree to this ahead of time. And if so, do people who refuse the lien agreement now have to watch their homes burn? Aren't we back at square one?

 

[Puddles]

It is not even that their local government is too cheap, they have no local government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area#United_States

So it's almost as though running the funding at a local level doesn't really make sense. But we don't want a federal agency either... if only there were some intermediate body of government that could administer tax collection and allocate funding.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Well I am assuming the decision was made by elected officials.

Citizens could create a referendum that is put up to be voted on. Of course, that would take effort and time (and a little money).

And it wouldn't come as a surprise if the people voted againts having the added tax and instead opted for a $75 fee.

Unfortunately it wouldn't surprise me. I've seen people reject 1/4 cent sales tax increases that help fund essential public services before.

There is such an aversion to the word 'tax', that people don't even think anymore.

 

[GaimeGuy]

And it wouldn't come as a surprise if the people voted againts having the added tax and instead opted for a $75 fee.

a nd then they complain when they choose not to pay the fee and their house burns down while the firefighter watches. But if they wanted to have fire protection at all costs it would make sens just to make it mandatory. Is there anyone who wouldn't want to be protected from a fire?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Put the fire out and then charge them for the fire department if that's the way their system is set up. I'd rather a 1000$ bill than all my shit destroyed.

Christ.

 

[Quixzlizx]

So it's almost as though running the funding at a local level doesn't really make sense. But we don't want a federal agency either... if only there were some intermediate body of government that could administer tax collection and allocate funding.

Yes, it would be the county, which has so far not funded a county-wide fire department. It's a political problem.

 

[Operations]

I fail to see where's the FD omission.

So again. People in this thread have wrong-headedly blamed the fire department. Blame the politicians.

Agreed, there's little else to discuss here.

 

[WedgeX]

If you can't afford $75/year in fire insurance, then it's possible you don't have the financial stability to be a homeowner. Especially considering most areas just have that fee built into your property taxes.

They have a mobile home. There is a damn good chance they were living in poverty. There is no reason a system like this should exist where if people simply can't afford to pay for government services that those services shouldn't serve them completely. And yes, taxes would cover this. But then they might not have to pay if their income did not qualify.

 

[Evlar]

Put the fire out and then charge them for the fire department if that's the way their system is set up. I'd rather a 1000$ bill than all my shit destroyed.

Christ.

I think the issue is they don't have the capacity to try to collect those fines after the fact. One or two $1000 fines per year wouldn't cover the costs to collect them, and the bad incentives created by making it appear optional may hurt their revenue even more.

 

[VelvetMouth]

Citizens could create a referendum that is put up to be voted on. Of course, that would take effort and time (and a little money).




Unfortunately it wouldn't surprise me. I've seen people reject 1/4 cent sales tax increases that help fund essential public services before.

There is such an aversion to the word 'tax', that people don't even think anymore.

Taxes turn people crazy. Our old neighbors sold their home and lost money on it for the sole reason that they wanted to move to the next county because they had less taxes. Lost money on their home, increased their commute, but hey we're not paying for all that Boulder County open space anymore!

 

[PumpkinPie]

You have to pay for the Fire Brigade? FFS...