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[sprsk]

Okay so i am sitting here thinkin about games cause i have nothing else to do and i really want to know exactly why melee in first person games is so wonky.


Is it because youre essentially controlling a camera? In a fps where you shoot, i assume youre not shooting bullets from the gun but youre activating different animations around the cursor, is this true for most fps games? On that note, is the reason melee is so crappy because you cant just use a cursor? Is it because of hte flatness of the perspective?

what is it exactly? in technical terms? Will the over the shoulder perspective fix this? Oblivion is a game that relies on melee most of the time and even in 3rd person its really wonky, so could part of it just be wonky combat in general? Is there a way to fix melee in FP games so it comes close to 3d action games like DMC or NG?

Whats the deal? CliffyB, You may or may ont be reading this but as an fps dev what do YOU think about melee in fps games? Do you think what weve seen so far is acceptable?

 

[Kittonwy]

Okay so i am sitting here thinkin about games cause i have nothing else to do and i really want to know exactly why melee in first person games is so wonky.


Is it because youre essentially controlling a camera? In a fps where you shoot, i assume youre not shooting bullets from the gun but youre activating different animations around the cursor, is this true for most fps games? On that note, is the reason melee is so crappy because you cant just use a cursor? Is it because of hte flatness of the perspective?

what is it exactly? in technical terms? Will the over the shoulder perspective fix this? Oblivion is a game that relies on melee most of the time and even in 3rd person its really wonky, so could part of it just be wonky combat in general? Is there a way to fix melee in FP games so it comes close to 3d action games like DMC or NG?

Whats the deal? CliffyB, You may or may ont be reading this but as an fps dev what do YOU think about melee in fps games? Do you think what weve seen so far is acceptable?

Melee relies much on judging what you can hit and what you can't, as well as whether you can be hit or not, something that the first person camera doesn't really do well.

Maybe it's the way the character is controlled that makes Oblivion melee not good? Compare the controls with that of DMC3 and Ninja Gaiden, those two games have much better controls.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

the Riddick game did it well.

 

[CB3]

the Riddick game did it well.

Yeah, thats the only game i can think that did the First Person Melee Well. I didnt play breakdown, so i cant vouch for that.

 

[Wafflecopter]

Fear, Riddick, COD 2


Oh......







Breakdown. Hey, whatever. Only console FPS I've ever enjoyed

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Riddick did it well. Condemned wasnt' too bad.

 

[Jiggy]

Is it because of hte flatness of the perspective?

That's it. Too much trouble gauging distance.

 

[Suikoguy]

Condemend?

 

[sprsk]

this isnt a "list stupid games you thought had good melee" thread. (because to be honest i dont believe you guys)


youre gonna have to say something more than a games name to convince me fps melee is without hope.

and ive seen videos of condemed, it looks like it has the same problems oblivion and any other melee based fps game have.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

Riddick did melee so well that I sometimes didn't want to use guns in the game, I'd rather shiv people.

 

[MarkRyan]

What was wrong with melee in Halo 1?

 

[browds11]

Is it because of hte flatness of the perspective?

Yeah, I'd have to assume that it has to do with the fact that you have no depth perception or any way of relating the distance between you and the target like you would in 3rd person.

 

[Fusebox]

Sorry, can't agree with the thread-title coz I've played Riddick and Condemned and the melee combat in those games doen't suck in the slightest.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

I would say rotation speed, and speed overall has something to do with it in fps. It would be absurd to think that in a fight somebody would just step right behind but that happens all the time in games because for the most part characters move too fast. Also as the attacks usuall can occur only directly in front of you whereas in real life you would be able to much more. Staggers as well would be beneficial but they would hurt an fps no end. So to answer your question I would wager that first person melee is difficult, if not impossiple in an fps setting. Also someone will say "Wii ftw" but I am skeptical at best to see if that is possible.

 

[Wafflecopter]

this isnt a "list stupid games you thought had good melee" thread. (because to be honest i dont believe you guys)


youre gonna have to say something more than a games name to convince me fps melee is without hope.

and ive seen videos of condemed, it looks like it has the same problems oblivion and any other melee based fps game have.

Fear's melee was useful. You didn't have to waste a shell if one shot from my shotty didn't do the trick.

 

[sprsk]

you guys are providing really good arguments.

im not talking about it being useful either, im talking about the mechanics themselves.

 

[Core407]

Okay so i am sitting here thinkin about games cause i have nothing else to do and i really want to know exactly why melee in first person games is so wonky.


Is it because youre essentially controlling a camera? In a fps where you shoot, i assume youre not shooting bullets from the gun but youre activating different animations around the cursor, is this true for most fps games? On that note, is the reason melee is so crappy because you cant just use a cursor? Is it because of hte flatness of the perspective?

what is it exactly? in technical terms? Will the over the shoulder perspective fix this? Oblivion is a game that relies on melee most of the time and even in 3rd person its really wonky, so could part of it just be wonky combat in general? Is there a way to fix melee in FP games so it comes close to 3d action games like DMC or NG?

Whats the deal? CliffyB, You may or may ont be reading this but as an fps dev what do YOU think about melee in fps games? Do you think what weve seen so far is acceptable?

Developers usually just don't know what they're doing when making a first person melee game, which results in a lot of awful games. A game like Maken X, which was released on a console with 1 analog stick (DC), still managed to pull off the FPM genre pretty well. The face buttons were used for strafing and the analog stick was used for aiming, which worked VERY well. With dual analog controllers, the movement becomes more fluid, but you're limited in the amount of buttons you can reach while still moving and aiming.

Edit: There are ways of getting around the controller issue, which I have actually figured out, but clearly a lot of developers haven't.

 

[Fusebox]

you guys are providing really good arguments.

Cry more - I'm not here to justify my knowledge I'm here to inform you you're wrong.

 

[sprsk]

Cry more - I'm not here to justify my knowledge I'm here to inform you you're wrong.

this is a discussion thread, so, perhaps you should discuss.


edit: the more i read this comment the more it drives me crazy. you dont have to justify your knowledge? are you crazy?

dont reply, keep this thread on track.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

you guys are providing really good arguments.

im not talking about it being useful either, im talking about the mechanics themselves.

THE MELEE MECHANICS IN RIDDICK IS ****ING AWESOME.

Its not stupidly complex nor too basic (Condemned melee was WAY too basic).

 

[Core407]

THE MELEE MECHANICS IN RIDDICK IS ****ING AWESOME.

Its not stupidly complex nor too basic (Condemned melee was WAY too basic).

Huh? Didn't Riddick just have a block (L trigger) and attack (R trigger)?

 

[Wollan]

THE MELEE MECHANICS IN RIDDICK IS ****ING AWESOME.

Its not stupidly complex nor too basic (Condemned melee was WAY too basic).

More people need to play Riddick.

 

[FiRez]

H:CE had some really good melee action.
in H2 is quite good too because the BXB and BXR combos, but is ruined by a very poor feedback and lunging

More people need to play Riddick.

yep.

 

[Wollan]

Huh? Didn't Riddick just have a block (L trigger) and attack (R trigger)?

Move the analogue stick to do different moves. Oblivion tried to mimick it slightly(but the end result is bad).

 

[Razoric]

Condemned has awesome first person melee.

 

[Ashodin]

If you think Melee in FPS is sucky, check out

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

Game is literally virtually hailing the return of great FPS Melee.

The game is littered with enemy-sensitive attacks, such as the game knowing you're facing a cyclops and allowing you to rip the dude's eye out.

I've been watching this game for a while, and I think it'll trump Oblivion in the melee department.

Reason number two why DMMM owns melee FPS: Each weapon you get has its own style and stance of use. Take Oblivion for example. You get a Dagger. You hold said dagger in your right hand, holding it like a sword. You get a sword. You hold it in your hand, like a sword. You get an axe. You hold it in your hand, like a sword.

DMMM: You get TWO daggers. You hold one at an angle, blade up, the second one at a defensive angle, blade down. This is what I'm talking about. Individual styles for individual weapons, letting melee FPS feel personal.

Check out screens if you're feeling squeamish.

 

[Core407]

Move the analogue stick to do different moves. Oblivion tried to mimick it slightly(but the end result is bad).

Weak.

 

[Az987]

One word: BREAKDOWN. or is that 2 words...

But yea, such a great game! screw the haters

 

[Wafflecopter]

DM is HOTNESS

 

[Wollan]

Weak.

Trust me. Working the analogue stick works very well.

 

[davepoobond]

most games don't do it well...Thief's biggest problem was the first person melee feeling kind of wonky

 

[Teknopathetic]

Dark Messiah is the...Messiah.

 

[Tain]

Ninja Gaiden, DMC, and fighting games require little to no work when it comes to orientation. It's largely automatic.

I guess an FPS with decent melee would need to introduce some more automation in control. Frankly, I've been dying for less orthodox movement in FPSes in general, with actions and moves that might lock the player's orientation, give the player some weight, and pull the player away from being a perfectly-free entity in 3D space.

There are little flashes of this here and there. The kicks in FEAR. The dash and spin as the guards in Chaos Theory multiplayer. Stuff like that, but taken to a further extent.

Christ, what would prevent developers throwing in a Punchout style scheme (with movement instead of plain dodging) when characters get into fist-to-fist situations?

most games don't do it well...Thief's biggest problem was the first person melee feeling kind of wonky

I actually thought Thief's melee was awesome, but less in how it played out and more in how it felt and sounded.

 

[FiRez]

One word: BREAKDOWN. or is that 2 words...

But yea, such a great game! screw the haters

damn I forgot about breakdwon, excellent answer

 

[Wafflecopter]

Dark Messiah is the...Messiah.

Indeed.

Speaking of Chaos Theory, does the D2D version still have Starforce?


BTW, never mentioned the Thief series and the words bad in the same series.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

well teh thing is i dont think there have been many First Person Melee games to begin with. You said you dont play fps games. Try playing Condemned or riddick and then come back.

Oblivion has really bad collision detection and is stats based so you cant really judge its combat in the same way.

The reason why you cant have DMC style combat in these games is because you have to be pretty much looking directly at the enemies to cause damage. It would take alot of focus to take on multiple enemies at the same speed as DMC because of the perspective.


Condemned is a fun cheap game, try it out.

 

[FiRez]

he dash and spin as the guards in Chaos Theory multiplayer

I think that was on Pandora Tomorrow too, it feels really great

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

I could see some kind of auto targeting working well. Not a lock on mind you, but something that you could use to get quickly reoriented, but then gradually lose that orientation (maybe? I don't know a prototype would help). If this system was also applied to the AI so they would target you. Alo there need to be a large variety of attacks, something like dmc3 complex button set up (maybe too hardcore?) to manage moves lists. I don't think this could be an secondary or tertiary system in the game, it would have to be the game in total so I again reiterate that a melee system in a FPS might be a pipe dream. I hope that helps the discussion sp0rsk. Also I do think condemned and Riddick are good starting points. Haven't tried Maken X.

EDIT: I see Tain agrees with my orientation idea.

 

[Core407]

Ninja Gaiden, DMC, and fighting games require little to no work when it comes to orientation. It's largely automatic.

I guess an FPS with decent melee would need to introduce some more automation in control. Frankly, I've been dying for less orthodox movement in FPSes in general, with actions and moves that might lock the player's orientation, give the player some weight, and pull the player away from being a perfectly-free entity in 3D space.

There are little flashes of this here and there. The kicks in FEAR. The dash and spin as the guards in Chaos Theory multiplayer. Stuff like that, but taken to a further extent.

Christ, what would prevent developers throwing in a Punchout style scheme (with movement instead of plain dodging) when characters get into fist-to-fist situations?



I actually thought Thief's melee was awesome, but less in how it played out and more in how it felt and sounded.

Problem with the whole true first person melee thing is that you can't control your movement, view and weapon aiming at the same time. It would have to always be 2 of the 3, which makes the genre a bit harder to develop for. There are obvious work arounds, but they'll never offer true melee combat in the same sense that a first person shooter offers a true experience.

 

[Ashodin]

IMO the best first-person melee was Jedi Outcast. Lightsaber fights done right.

 

[Flynn]

Do boxing games suck? I don't play them, but it seems like people like Fight Night. What are they doing right? Or do boxing fans just have diminished expectations?

 

[FiRez]

IMO the best first-person melee was Jedi Outcast. Lightsaber fights done right.

you need to be in 3rd person to use lightsabers. I was going to mention UC2 but I recalled that it was the same case of JK3

 

[Azih]

IMO the best first-person melee was Jedi Outcast. Lightsaber fights done right.

Sort of done right, It was really fun, but you couldn't master it, kinda random.

 

[Ashodin]

Actually, I retract my statement about Jedi Outcast.

If that rumored Star Wars game comes out to the Wii, it will be the KING of First Person Melee. Total control is what first person melee should be all about.

 

[JPRaup]

The Halo melees give you so much satisfaction, I love it.

The ABSOLUTE WORSE has to be Counterstrike kniving if that counts. I cant ****ing stand it. It is horrendous. It rarely registers and knive kills seem so random

 

[Nerevar]

Problem with the whole true first person melee thing is that you can't control your movement, view and weapon aiming at the same time. It would have to always be 2 of the 3, which makes the genre a bit harder to develop for. There are obvious work arounds, but they'll never offer true melee combat in the same sense that a first person shooter offers a true experience.

yeah, I can't really think of any game that has done melee "well" unless you do some approximation of it. I mean, you're either doing some form of lock-on (zelda games) or auto-aim (ninja gaiden) for the user or you're reducing melee combat to some simplification (by making it 2d or making melee super-strong, like in Halo). Until you can really replication all the various types of nuanced motion that would be present in real melee combat, you're not really going to be able to do it correctly in a game.

 

[∀ Narayan]

What was wrong with melee in Halo 1?

Absolutely nothing; it was perfect.

Halo 2's animations, on the other hand, were horrible.

 

[Core407]

yeah, I can't really think of any game that has done melee "well" unless you do some approximation of it. I mean, you're either doing some form of lock-on (zelda games) or auto-aim (ninja gaiden) for the user or you're reducing melee combat to some simplification (by making it 2d or making melee super-strong, like in Halo). Until you can really replication all the various types of nuanced motion that would be present in real melee combat, you're not really going to be able to do it correctly in a game.

Fund my game so I can do the genre justice? All I need is $10k and I'm good!

 

[gfdoom]

you guys are providing really good arguments.

im not talking about it being useful either, im talking about the mechanics themselves.

i think the main problem is that when your doing some type of melee attack in most fps it just dosen't have any "weight" or "feeling" to it. in oblivion for instance when you attack with a melee weapon of any sort it feels as if your just swinging and not actualy hitting the enemy,yeah the enemy may be in front of you but it jut dosen't feel as if your actual attacking him as compared to an enemy being shot at. riddick did a good job with the melee attacks cuz it was a good combination of the sound fx(the actual sounds of the blows connecting) and the animations of the characters reacting to the blows. this gave the melee attacks a sense of "weight" and "feeling". another thing i think would help is, if the character is doing a melee attack the whole screen should move alittle or sorta track the motions of your arm swinging from left to right. i noticed in alot fps when the character is attacking it's just there arms moving and nothing else, when you attack in real life your body moves with every swing or motion you make. developers don't seem to take that into account, i mean only recently have we started seeing characters actually sway back and forth when climbing ladders and what not.they need to start adding these types of animations to the melee attacks!!!!!

 

[Core407]

i think the main problem is that when your doing some type of melee attack in most fps it just dosen't have any "weight" or "feeling" to it. in oblivion for instance when you attack with a melee weapon of any sort it feels as if your just swinging and not actualy hitting the enemy,yeah the enemy may be in front of you but it jut dosen't feel as if your actual attacking him as compared to an enemy being shot at. riddick did a good job with the melee attacks cuz it was a good combination of the sound fx(the actual sounds of the blows connecting) and the animations of the characters reacting to the blows. this gave the melee attacks a sense of "weight" and "feeling". another thing i think would help is, if the character is doing a melee attack the whole screen should move alittle or sorta track the motions of your arm swinging from left to right. i noticed in alot fps when the character is attacking it's just there arms moving and nothing else, when you attack in real life your body moves with every swing or motion you make. developers don't seem to take that into account, i mean only recently have we started seeing characters actually sway back and forth when climbing ladders and what not.they need to start adding these types of animations to the melee attacks!!!!!

Condemned actually managed to get the whole "anger" thing down pretty well and you really felt like you were in it, but this could be attributed to the wonderful audio and graphics too.