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[Saitou]

Yeah, by the sounds of this thread, most people complaining about Fog of War are playing moslt console turn based strategy games. Which is fair, since most implementations of FoW in TBSs are shite (see: Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, as mentioned repeatedly).


But this argument holds no grounds whatsoever on real strategy games, aka RTSs.

 

[lastendconductor]

Really? Everytime I take out enemy recon units in AWDS they have a much harder time of killing me because they have a harder time seeing me. I've never seen an AI unit just stroll up to one of my hidden units and kill it.

What is fucking unfair about AW fog of war is that you start in a corner of the map, and the cpu has artillery and scouts scattered in every damn forest and mountain. Overcompensating dumb AI with lame unfairness; trademark of the series (as much as I love them). Really bad news if it's true that they're really putting more emphasis on FoW in DS2.

 

[FoxSpirit]

The only bad thing about FoW in AW: DS is that the computer KNOWS. He will never run into a trap. Never.

Then again, in multi all is fair. And Sonja has her big day with the improved sight range. Oh, and the hidden unit HP count, a non-information the computer will also ignore to not-have.

And yeah, in RTS scouting is big. I mean, good scouting you have to learn but once you get good at it you don't want a non-FOW game. "Send you first Overlord to the closest starting location, send your 9th drone to the 2nd closest one."

 

[A Human Becoming]

I hated it in the original Advance Wars because I kept getting hit every turn (actually the reason I stopped playing the game). In Fire Emblem it wasn't so bad because there weren't not nearly as many long range attackers.


All depends on how it's done.

 

[ZealousD]

I like it in Starcraft and Civ 3, don't much like it in Advance Wars.

Agreed. In RTS games it's necessary because then your strategy is about planning for enemy attacks, what units you think they'll use, and where they'll come from, which fundamentally requires and is built around Fog of War. Imagine Warcraft 3 without Fog of War. Yuck.

But with something like Advance Wars, it's much more about planning around what your enemy currently has and how you can plan around it. It's a pain to discover that your opponent has 3 sets of rockets in sets of trees, but you find that you can avoid them if you take hidden path Y. That's really about trial and error.

 

[Wyndstryker]

I would say it depends on how the game is. Some games really don't need the fog. hell some games are crap with it. all the while other games thrive because of the fog.

i hate fog in turn based games, but love fog in RTS's. (lone builder building behind enemy bases ftw!)

 

[[Nintex]]

I like FOW, but not without the spyplanes, sattelite scan or radar uplink stuff.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

It's great in single-player when I can enjoy the atmosphere of the world. I've always put a lot of effort into setting up patrols, border passes, checkpoints, forward camps, and so forth in such an environment. It's the sort of Settlers mindset of managing and watching a world unfold before you. In that environment, fog of war can certainly improve the experience.

When it comes to multi-player, however, it depends too much on the game to give an all-encompassing answer. In some games, it can add more tactical depth; in others it just adds too much of a random variable and thus lowers the skill level of play. Furthermore, you can never really appreciate the details of the world or atmosphere in MP. It's all about the technical elements of the game so fog of war loses value in that regard as well.

 

[Bildi]

Yeah, I really suck at RTSs so I really hate fog of war :lol

 

[Dragmire]

For me, it makes the game a lot harder, but it adds some nice variety. I wouldn't want Advance Wars, for example, to be just all fog of war or, likewise, no fog of war at all.

 

[firex]

Fog of war is awesome and adds an extra level of strategy, regardless if the game is turn based or real time. AW doesn't handle it perfectly, but that's just the lame-o "hide in a forest to be invisible" stuff, and because the computer cheats and sees everything.

 

[grenadeguru]

Good!

Fog of war is one of my favorite parts of strategy games.

I love recon and devising strategies with imperfect information. I find perfect information games like chess tedious and boring.

I really prefer more tactically orientated games so I guess fog of war might matter less the farther up the chain you go. There still has to be some kind of hidden information or at least some random elements though to keep my interest.

Check out Armageddon Empires for a good example of fog of war in a single player turn-based strategy game. The AI has to deal with it the same as the player and the hex maps are randomly generated so rote memorization won't help you.

 

[Baryn]

Yeah, I really suck at RTSs so I really hate fog of war :lol

Yep

 

[PillowKnight]

But this argument holds no grounds whatsoever on real strategy games, aka RTSs.

Not as far as AW is concerned, I refuse to play AW multiplayer without fog of war its just plain dumb, and pretty much saps the game of much of it's strategy. Actually, AWDS has a great fog of war system for turn based strategy games, ie you can hide units in forests/reefs,and most units have shitty LOS without recon.

So yeah, I love fog of war and strategy games without it really lose a lot of their charm. How the hell are you supposed to form a proper strategy and plan of attack, if your opponent can see your every move?

 

[Slavik81]

Chess.

That is all.

 

[Infernodash]

Not as far as AW is concerned, I refuse to play AW multiplayer without fog of war its just plain dumb, and pretty much saps the game of much of it's strategy. Actually, AWDS has a great fog of war system for turn based strategy games, ie you can hide units in forests/reefs,and most units have shitty LOS without recon.

So yeah, I love fog of war and strategy games without it really lose a lot of their charm. How the hell are you supposed to form a proper strategy and plan of attack, if your opponent can see your every move?

I agree. I must have fog of war on all multiplayer matches of AWDS. A real strategist can perceive a strategy the minute you start making moves and building units that is why I always adore fog of war maps and settings. plus... with Grit and Jake it's ass raping time.

 

[justchris]

Fog of War isn't inherently bad, but some implementations of it are asinine. Also, for shorter missions, it's pretty much meaningless, because you don't really have the time to make plans and contingency plans, which is kind of required in FoW situations.

 

[hellclerk]

honestly, i would like to see a sort of FoW in the next Battalion Wars. makes those scout vehicles worth more than cannon fodder in most of the missions...

 

[FieryBalrog]

Real Time Strategy would be absolutely gutted without Fog of War. Its one of the most vital parts of the genre in terms of adding actual strategy. It means you aren't spoonfed all the information and you don't always know what to do, and there is actual room for creativity and innovation and intuition and out-thinking your opponent.

For example Starcraft, scouting is absolutely vital and a cornerstone of the game. A lot of brilliant plays revolve around intel and deceptive counter-intel and at the pro level without the need to scout it would be terrible, the game would instead revolve around rote memorization and execution of optimal patterns instead of the need for flexibility and adaptation. I dont know how you can think scouting is "annoying", unless you just want a casual non-intense game where you are spoonfed intelligence, in which you can just play the AI and it doesn't matter diddlysquat whether you scout or not.

This applies mostly to strategy games, but I suppose it might be an issue in other genres.

What do you think of fog of war?

PROS:
* makes scouting useful
* probably more realistic

CONS:
* makes strategy more random and luck-based
* scouting is boring and annoying

If you can't prepare for luck you don't deserve to win, and you are supposed to scout and read signals intelligently to minimize luck. Luck is heavily involved in real warfare anyway. Luck favors the prepared, the intelligent and those good at reading their opponents.

Removing deception and counter-deception from the game removes half the fun IMO. Nal_Ra couldn't deceive his opponent through probe timings, Casy couldn't have deceived his opponent July with that brilliant fake expansion, Savior couldn't have kept Bisu guessing by sacrificing eco to go zergling speed to deny scouting and introduce an element of fear and uncertainty into Bisu's mind... etc. And those are just super obvious examples from one game in the genre.

It gets worse than that. What good is preparing a surprise flank when your opponent can see it coming all the way through? Or attacking an outlying base as a diversion for a massive attack elsewhere when your opponent can just see that it is a diversion?

Just play a turn-based boardgame because the RTS genre is not for you...

the game would be impossible without radars.

and it would also be unrealistic

"HAI WELCOME TO THE YEAR 50,000. NO RADAR, SEND UR KAMIKAZE PLANES OUT GL"

One of the best thing about Forged Alliance is that they fixed scout-spam both with cost and with the new Fog of War system. Thats right, they introduced a whole new system of Fog of War just to make it harder to gather intelligence.

I still think gathering intel in FA is too easy thanks to the T1 airfac, but why do you think they have radar jammers and fibbers and stealth generators also? None of those would matter in the slightest if FoW wasn't present.

Knowing how to deceive and mislead your opponent while countering his deception is one the major elements of strategy and most satisfying too.

 

[Tremis]

Chess.

That is all.

Yeah, but how fun would chess be with a randomly generated board where you don't know what pieces your opponent has or where they are?

Actually that sounds fun.

 

[mrklaw]

Absolutely hate this in turn-based games. Ruined the first Advance Wars and for the other AW and FE games I just end up replaying the map until I have memorized where every enemy unit is. What? I don't like having my score go down because I'm unlucky!

I don't really play RTS's much but I didn't mind the darkness in Grim Grimoire.

agree.

In RTS it might be OK, but I haven't played one of those for a few years now.

but in turn based strategy games I hate it. I want to plan my attack based on where the enemy is and what they'll do. I can't concentrate on that if I have to tip-toe around with jeeps scouting everythign out first.


Less hated is unit building. I quite like the purity and simplicity of having a preset unit layout at the beginning of a level and playign with that.

 

[Saitou]

The real problem isn't FoW in RTS or TBS, but FoW in campaign maps or versus AI in TBS.

It's no fun, because it's more of a puzzle (chess) than an actual information struggle (true FoW).

 

[IzumiK]

Because you can see what your enemy is doing all the time.

George Bush wish he didn't have the fog of war so he could see that his real war is at home rather than in Iraq.

 

[FieryBalrog]

The real problem isn't FoW in RTS or TBS, but FoW in campaign maps or versus AI in TBS.

It's no fun, because it's more of a puzzle (chess) than an actual information struggle (true FoW).

Yea, it can be really annoying in campaign maps, especially the "puzzle" ones that you always had in Red Alert with just Tanya or something.

 

[papelnabangka]

I like fog of war.

 

[Kestastrophe]

Fog of War is ok, but I hate it when computer AI always knows where you are at regardless of whether or not they scout you. If you are going to use Fog of War, please make it so that it applies to computer AI.

 

[Pureauthor]

The real problem isn't FoW in RTS or TBS, but FoW in campaign maps or versus AI in TBS.

It's no fun, because it's more of a puzzle (chess) than an actual information struggle (true FoW).

Well, this complaint can't really be applied to AW games since practically all their campaign maps were essentially dressed up puzzles.

 

[MoxManiac]

A strategy game without FoW is more like chess, where everything is plainly visible and there are no surprises, only superiority in numbers. This leads to massing.

I'd rather have the element of surprise in my games, thanks.

That's not to say FoW-less strategy games can't exist, like say Fire Emblem. But if it's multiplayer, it's FoW or nada.


A severely incorrect and misinformed claim. If you can't plan for surprises, you're no strategist at all.

Fire Emblem Sacred Stones has fog of war.

 

[Saitou]

Fire Emblem Sacred Stones has fog of war.

In all of three maps.

Yes, recent FE games do have FoW, but it's implementation is a bit different from different strategy games. All units except Thieves have the same LoS, and you have items to greatly increase the sight of any unit.

PoR had them too, but even then only in Hard Mode and only in three maps.

 

[Pureauthor]

In all of three maps.

Yes, recent FE games do have FoW, but it's implementation is a bit different from different strategy games. All units except Thieves have the same LoS, and you have items to greatly increase the sight of any unit.

PoR had them too, but even then only in Hard Mode and only in three maps.

What you mean is the implementation sucks so much that it might as well not even exist.

 

[miyamotofreak]

I generally like it in Advance Wars.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Fog of War is ok, but I hate it when computer AI always knows where you are at regardless of whether or not they scout you. If you are going to use Fog of War, please make it so that it applies to computer AI.

It can be really hard to program an AI without giving them permanent LOS. Its rare to find a good one. The cheating AI in Forged Alliance is a lot better than the regular AI because (among other things) it gets permanent LOS.

 

[eibboR]

Fog of War is RTS. Turn based can flow either way.

Without Fog of War in RTS games, rush strategies are pretty much thrown out the door. Hell, without Fog of War you see when oppenents wipe their ass. :lol

 

[Joseph Merrick]

I generally don't like fog of war, especially in classic rts games like warcraft2/starcraft and more recently supcom-- but somehow it's awesome in company of heroes.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Fog of War is RTS. Turn based can flow either way.

Without Fog of War in RTS games, rush strategies are pretty much thrown out the door. Hell, without Fog of War you see when oppenents wipe their ass. :lol

Yea, it doesnt just kill rushing, it kills huge parts of the game. What good is quick expo to hard tech if you can't keep your opponent guessing as to what you're doing.

 

[Lostconfused]

I generally don't like fog of war, especially in classic rts games like warcraft2/starcraft and more recently supcom-- but somehow it's awesome in company of heroes.

Well company of heroes lets you play mind games with your opponent thanks to fog of war. Opposing fronts takes it even further.

 

[Mooreberg]

I am looking forward to the announcement of David Jaffe's new game.

 

[Proc]

I couldn't imagine an RTS without it, but I'm definitely open to the idea of a well executed game that disregards that function.

 

[Xeke]

It would makes Guardians so much less fun.

 

[Azrael]

It's fine for multi, but the comp AI always cheats in strategy games with fog of war.