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[adamosmaki]

Corporate shilling in this thread is amazing. There are bunch of games without Denuvo and they do fine. Couple little games by CDPR called Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 are just an example.

Denuvo mainly gives publishers a chance to present to shareholders that they are "taking piracy seriously". Witness bullshit additional DRM on top of Denuvo that some companies put, "just to be on a safe side".

It's all bullshit for the most part. Ones who suffer are mainly customers. Yeah, maybe if you have latest i7-i9 or AMD equivalent chip you won't have a lot of issues (not guaranteed mind you), but fact is that most gamers do not own that. So the majority of customers suffer through this BS.

Not to mention what happens when inevitably Denuvo goes offline either due to company going out of business or moving on to Denuvo 3.0 or some shit. This is same company that had that SecureROM crap that went belly up. So yeah, good luck playing some of these games in 10-15 years.

Yeah, I know to a lot of people that's immaterial, but some of us do like replaying older titles. Imagine not being able to play say Chrono Trigger or FFVI because they were DRM protected.

Well EA, activision, konami etc all have proved they have the good will to remove drm after a while so we can enjoy our games once their servers go offline. Now excuse me while i go play nfs carbon on rpcs3 because playing the pc version is next to impossible thanks to Ea and their anti piracy measures

 

[Imtjnotu]

I'm rich poor. I make 100k in California so my game choice is selective.

At the same time fuck you broke niggas that pirate shit cause you're too cheap to purchase a $9.99 game

Mad drunk up in Portland so mods go easy

 

[drotahorror]

After that bullshit in RE Village, definitely waiting for some PC impressions before buying.

 

[Erebus]

Wasn't this proven false? It's the Steam overlay that's causing the worse performance?


And their updated video

Does Steam have such a significant hit in performance or is this specific game an outlier?

 

[Azurro]

Preserving gaming history and improving game performance?

This piracy thing seems based as hell. Maybe the publishers could learn something from it.

What can publishers learn from giving away a game for free?

 

[lyan]

Denuvo generally only effects lower end computers.

Only because high end is usually gpu bottlenecked currently.

 

[Silver Wattle]

I'm rich poor. I make 100k in California so my game choice is selective.

At the same time fuck you broke niggas that pirate shit cause you're too cheap to purchase a $9.99 game

Mad drunk up in Portland so mods go easy

What an idiotic comment, at least you can hide behind being drunk unlike these other corporate ass kissers.

Hating DRM does not equal being a "broke nigga, too cheap to pay $9.99"

Edit: my comment came across a bit more hostile than I intended, basically people need to stop excusing corporate from making anti customer moves such as DRM since it does nothing to pirates and only harms buyers, fuck corporate.

 

[Guilty_AI]

What can publishers learn from giving away a game for free?

Isn't there a whole business model based around giving your game for free?

 

[Azurro]

Isn't there a whole business model based around giving your game for free?

I knew someone would say that. Those games usually have other monetization options that the game is designed around. Games like RE8 don't have this, giving away the game for free would just tank the publisher. It's a shame to have stuff like Denuvo, but they are necessary because so many people steal on PC. Get angry with those, not Denuvo.

 

[Mr Moose]

Does Steam have such a significant hit in performance or is this specific game an outlier?

No idea, I am hoping someone does some tests with and without the overlay in a few games.

 

[mxbison]

Who besides devs and denuvo says they don't affect performance?

Everything has shills, even Denuvo.

You can see them in this thread.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I knew someone would say that. Those games usually have other monetization options that the game is designed around. Games like RE8 don't have this, giving away the game for free would just tank the publisher. It's a shame to have stuff like Denuvo, but they are necessary because so many people steal on PC. Get angry with those, not Denuvo.

Don't give a crap what other people do, i give a crap to what i'm paying for and i don't want a defective product that'll stop working cause the internet is down without any good reason.

If people pirating games bothers these publishers so much, they should either grow a pair and realize this doesn't affect their bottom line nearly as much as they think, or find "solutions" that won't affect me as the end costumer.

 

[stranno]

To be honest, I have seen WAY more videos proving that Denuvo does not affect the performance in a significant way than videos proving otherwise.

Not even sure if those cracks actually remove the protection or they just bypass them, but the I/O performance impact from the protection is still there.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Denuvo has a history of fucking up performance.
People are now trying to change the narrative? For years pirates got better performing releases than paying customers, because of Denuvo.

 

[Azurro]

Don't give a crap what other people do, i give a crap to what i'm paying for and i don't want a defective product that'll stop working cause the internet is down without any good reason.

If people pirating games bothers these publishers so much, they should either grow a pair and realize this doesn't affect their bottom line nearly as much as they think, or find "solutions" that won't affect me as the end costumer.

You should give a crap, if piracy makes it more difficult to turn in a profit, the company will eventually disappear and those games and IPs probably will disappear as well.

I don't think it's nice, but something has to be done to avoid piracy as long as possible to make the investment return possible, it's just the nature of the beast.

Though, every time I hear an argument against it, aside from legitimate high performance losses, which is apparently not often, most of the time the arguments just sound a bit dishonest, it's just people happy that they can steal games.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You should give a crap, if piracy makes it more difficult to turn in a profit, the company will eventually disappear and those games and IPs probably will disappear as well.

It doesn't, we have living examples of it.
Elden Ring, no DRM since launch, 12 million sales in a month or so.
Cyberpunk, no DRM, 13 million sales first month.
Tons of other examples, including from smaller studios like Neon White, Deep Rock Galactic, Risk of Rain 2, Hades, Stray, and so on.

Theres no excuse you can use involving "thu puhrates are stealing our sales!!1!!" when we have games tons of drm-free games selling pancakes like that.

 

[JakeWolf]

At this point I'm just gonna buy a game and then pirate it, and then play the pirate copy only.

 

[JakeWolf]

Corporate shilling in this thread is amazing. There are bunch of games without Denuvo and they do fine. Couple little games by CDPR called Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 are just an example.

Denuvo mainly gives publishers a chance to present to shareholders that they are "taking piracy seriously". Witness bullshit additional DRM on top of Denuvo that some companies put, "just to be on a safe side".

It's all bullshit for the most part. Ones who suffer are mainly customers. Yeah, maybe if you have latest i7-i9 or AMD equivalent chip you won't have a lot of issues (not guaranteed mind you), but fact is that most gamers do not own that. So the majority of customers suffer through this BS.

Not to mention what happens when inevitably Denuvo goes offline either due to company going out of business or moving on to Denuvo 3.0 or some shit. This is same company that had that SecureROM crap that went belly up. So yeah, good luck playing some of these games in 10-15 years.

Yeah, I know to a lot of people that's immaterial, but some of us do like replaying older titles. Imagine not being able to play say Chrono Trigger or FFVI because they were DRM protected.

People act like pirating hurts the developers when in reality developer really don't care that much, also it does not affect their salaries whatsoever.

The only people who cares about the pirates are the suits. They are worried that the pirates are going to pirate so much that they lose 0.0001% of sales and put a dent on their bonus.

 

[Caffeine]

At this point I'm just gonna buy a game and then pirate it, and then play the pirate copy only.

its not really unheard of to play the chronicles of riddick game with out the tages drm u have to find the athena cracked exe. and files from the gog version. Yes even if you bought the game on steam. or else the game will not boot up.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The only people who cares about the pirates are the suits. They are worried that the pirates are going to pirate so much that they lose 0.0001% of sales and put a dent on their bonus.

Not even that, its drm companies making sales pitch for them. Or they're just too paranoid.
Either way, it comes from lack of understanding of the market.

 

[JakeWolf]

its not really unheard of to play the chronicles of riddick game with out the tages drm u have to find the athena cracked exe. and files from the gog version. Yes even if you bought the game on steam. or else the game will not boot up.

This. Too many games these days just don't work.
Nothing like spending money to buy a game only to find out the game doens't work and now you need to read through a wall of discussion threads from 2017 to fix it.

Here's my gaming hot take: If a game is no longer being supported & doesn't work on modern hardware without many fixes, it should just be FREE.

 

[Antwix]

You should give a crap, if piracy makes it more difficult to turn in a profit, the company will eventually disappear and those games and IPs probably will disappear as well.

I don't think it's nice, but something has to be done to avoid piracy as long as possible to make the investment return possible, it's just the nature of the beast.

Though, every time I hear an argument against it, aside from legitimate high performance losses, which is apparently not often, most of the time the arguments just sound a bit dishonest, it's just people happy that they can steal games.

The old piracy kills game companies argument... You really think every pirated game equals a lost sale? Disproven.

No matter what industry you are in, there's always going to be bad apples but if you create good games there's always going to be people who buy them. Others have mentioned successful games without denuvo but games on GOG can still be wildly successful even though there's absolutely zero drm.

Piracy will never solely break a company. Creating a bad game will.

 

[JakeWolf]

Not even that, its drm companies making sales pitch for them. Or they're just too paranoid.
Either way, it comes from lack of understanding of the market.

Yep, wasting time & money on stopping piracy is like setting yourself on fire just to prevent mosquito bites.

Also, people underestimate the amount of knowledge & skill needed to pirate a game, most PC gamers are computer idiots and have no idea where to even begin pirating a game.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

Remember that time that pirates made mass effect 2 playable?

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

At this point I'm just gonna buy a game and then pirate it, and then play the pirate copy only.

ive done it, it feels good.

don't forget to seed, lmao.

I wonder if the absurdly large install sizes of games now are a kind of anti piracy measure? DLing HWL would be like 90 gigs, then installing is another 90 gigs. On anything smaller than a 512 SSD that is more or less a dealbreaker, and it is pretty heavy duty space wise even on a 1tb drive.

 

[Spukc]

piracy is bad mmkay?

 

[Umbasaborne]

Whoever put that 15 year old character in tight yoga pants had serious issues

 

[Imtjnotu]

What an idiotic comment, at least you can hide behind being drunk unlike these other corporate ass kissers.

Hating DRM does not equal being a "broke nigga, too cheap to pay $9.99"

Bro I'm sorry for this shit! Last night was bad

 

[Spukc]

Bro I'm sorry for this shit! Last night was bad

 

[Azurro]

The old piracy kills game companies argument... You really think every pirated game equals a lost sale? Disproven.

No matter what industry you are in, there's always going to be bad apples but if you create good games there's always going to be people who buy them. Others have mentioned successful games without denuvo but games on GOG can still be wildly successful even though there's absolutely zero drm.

Piracy will never solely break a company. Creating a bad game will.

You should probably read more than the headline:

"the study estimates that for every 100 games that are downloaded illegally, players actually legally obtain 24 more games (including free games) than they would in a world in which piracy didn't exist."

So, this comparison is literally impossible to achieve.

"points out a number of caveats for this headline number, not least of which is a 45-percent error margin that makes the results less than statistically significant (i.e. indistinguishable from noise). "

So, the study is garbage.

Again, aside from the morality aspect of it, without a proper form of DRM, if your PC market instead of being, say 30% of the total sales it's 10% due to your game being readily pirateable, that will affect decisions on the type of games that are made in the future.

I understand that one of your motivations for having a gaming PC is to pirate games, but at least let's call it for what it is, it's not a moral act or one without consequences.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Imagine being a denuvo shill ffs... what's next Tages DRM defense force?

Some users in here love twerking for big ass corporations, whats new?

 

[Sleepwalker]

It's not a service issue. It's never been a service issue. Gabe Newell is just simply marketing his own online store here. That's all there really is to it. I'm surprised so many people took it as an undeniable fact that shouldn't be questioned when it is said by someone who has an interest in getting publishers to release on his online store.

There is no service that can compete with free. A person intending to pirate a new release for free isn't going to be persuaded just because you made spending 60$ slightly more convenient.

The power of convenience is very very strong, to the point where paying money is preferred to the free option.

Pirating a game requires some level of tinkering/browsing/visiting sketchy sites/torrenting/troubleshooting etc. Offer most people a plug and play alternative for $ that wont break the bank and theyll pay.

 

[Guilty_AI]

There is no service that can compete with free. A person intending to pirate a new release for free isn't going to be persuaded just because you made spending 60$ slightly more convenient.

Considering most significant releases are drm-free and they still sell as much as similar drm'ed counterparts, apparently they can.

Being easily pirateable from day 0 hasn't stopped Elden Ring from selling bananas.

 

[GymWolf]

Considering most significant releases are drm-free and they still sell as much as similar drm'ed counterparts, apparently they can.

Being easily pirateable from day 0 hasn't stopped Elden Ring from selling bananas.

Really? because i think all the major games i played this year had denuvo...

callisto protocol
ds remake
hogwarts
atomic heart
wild hearts

 

[ACESHIGH]

Folks on these forums have a ridiculously narrow pov based on experiences from the core markets.

In South America and other regions you just could NOT get original PS1 and PS2 games. And believe me, people would have bought original games back then. Less games instead of buying tons of pirate games on impulse that did not work or they did not like. Also A pirated game has no resale value.

Console folk love to act all high and mighty against piracy but then they go and buy used games. What's the difference? That transaction does not give any money to the publisher. Better to buy it heavily discounted on steam or get gsmepass

 

[Fuz]

Piracy impacting sales is a lie that you people love repeating, even if it's been proven time and again that it's false.

(Not gonna post the articles for the studies 'cause the mods didn't like them last time I did, google them yourself)

 

[Guilty_AI]

Really? because i think all the major games i played this year had denuvo...

callisto protocol
ds remake
hogwarts
atomic heart
wild hearts

I'm including AA and higher profile indie games. What i'm calling non-significant are the really obscure stuff and shovelware.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Somebody doesn't understand what the term "bootlicker" means,

It generally refers to an unapologetically subservient sycophant, whose adoration often isn't reciprocated.

Not, you know, "paying for stuff".

 

[Antwix]

You should probably read more than the headline:

"the study estimates that for every 100 games that are downloaded illegally, players actually legally obtain 24 more games (including free games) than they would in a world in which piracy didn't exist."

So, this comparison is literally impossible to achieve.

"points out a number of caveats for this headline number, not least of which is a 45-percent error margin that makes the results less than statistically significant (i.e. indistinguishable from noise). "

So, the study is garbage.

Again, aside from the morality aspect of it, without a proper form of DRM, if your PC market instead of being, say 30% of the total sales it's 10% due to your game being readily pirateable, that will affect decisions on the type of games that are made in the future.

I understand that one of your motivations for having a gaming PC is to pirate games, but at least let's call it for what it is, it's not a moral act or one without consequences.

Studies that are based on user reported stats are always going to have wild margins of error. Regardless, you act like "proper" DRM is the key to success. Cyberpunk, as one example, released DRM free on went on to become the only single player game ever to break 1 million concurrent users on steam. And right behind them on the charts is Elden Ring. So the 2 most played single player games ever on steam charts are both "readily pirateable" games. Not to mention countless indie games like Dead Cells, Hollow Knight, Rimworld, Factorio, Terraria, etc that have went on to become big hits.

It's almost like good games will typically sell well regardless of "proper DRM". Hmm...

 

[Sleepwalker]

Studies that are based on user reported stats are always going to have wild margins of error. Regardless, you act like "proper" DRM is the key to success. Cyberpunk, as one example, released DRM free on went on to become the only single player game ever to break 1 million concurrent users on steam. And right behind them on the charts is Elden Ring. So the 2 most played single player games ever on steam charts are both "readily pirateable" games. Not to mention countless indie games like Dead Cells, Hollow Knight, Rimworld, Factorio, Terraria, etc that have went on to become big hits.

It's almost like good games will typically sell well regardless of "proper DRM". Hmm...

Every single Sony game on PC is also Denuvo free and they still sell well despite that (and being like 10 bucks on a playstation)

 

[Shubh_C63]

sometimes there is even a 20+ fps difference , and the worst part is that denuvo doesnt help the game get more sales

That is simply not true. CP and W3 are some of the outstanding games out there and piracy impact would be difficult to calculate.
If it blocks piracy for more than 3 months after launch, there is definitely few sales conversion.

 

[StereoVsn]

Considering most significant releases are drm-free and they still sell as much as similar drm'ed counterparts, apparently they can.

Being easily pirateable from day 0 hasn't stopped Elden Ring from selling bananas.

Or Witcher games or Cyberpunk or Skyrim or many other games.

If a game is good and convenient to purchase, vast majority of the times, customers will just buy it.

DRM usually harms customers first and pirates second. People who were going to go through torrents, sketchy downloads, worries about malware and so on weren't going to buy your game anyway in vast majority of cases.

 

[Fabieter]

"A person seeks freedom, when you limit his choices.
To give him his freedom is to provide him a choice."
Sun Tzu.

This is eggs or chicken first theory. Companys wouldn't invest in shit like this if there wouldn't be pirates. Denovo cost them serious money.

 

[knguyen]

"A person seeks freedom, when you limit his choices.
To give him his freedom is to provide him a choice."
Sun Tzu.

Chinese like to say wise ass stuff, but the whole fucking country is selfish, greedy and they hold grudge forever.

 

[lh032]

its ok, just buy high end hardware to bruteforce that fps dip.

 

[feynoob]

Everyone is selfish, greedy and holds grudge forever.

This is the correct term. Everyone is for themselves.
Living in US, I learned alot of important lessons. People will sue you for everything, even though you are trying to help them.
A somalian person got sued here in america by her friend, because she got in to accident while she was in her car. All that person did was driving this person to her work.

You can be nice, but people will take advantage of your kidness.

 

[Rubicaant]

wait, steam overlay is bad? oh boy

 

[Rykan]

Considering most significant releases are drm-free and they still sell as much as similar drm'ed counterparts, apparently they can.

Being easily pirateable from day 0 hasn't stopped Elden Ring from selling bananas.

Allow me to clarify what I meant by that: I didn't mean to imply that stores (Digital fronts or otherwise) are unable to thrive or compete. Thankfully, most people understand that Piracy is the same as theft in most cases.

What I meant is that most people who do pirate do so because they want to play the game without paying for it. Someone who is set on playing a game for free is not going to be persuaded to pay 60$ just because it's slightly more convenient to do so in a digital storefront.

 

[SomeGit]

It's not a service issue. It's never been a service issue. Gabe Newell is just simply marketing his own online store here. That's all there really is to it. I'm surprised so many people took it as an undeniable fact that shouldn't be questioned when it is said by someone who has an interest in getting publishers to release on his online store.

There is no service that can compete with free. A person intending to pirate a new release for free isn't going to be persuaded just because you made spending 60$ slightly more convenient.

By the same token a person that intends to pirate a game because it's free isn't going to be speding 60$ just because it's unpiratable.
It's ridiculous to say it's not a service issue, go back 20 years and look at the landscape of PC gaming.

Want to buy a game? Better hope a retailer has it available around you, or you have enough trust to buy it from a random retailer online and handle all the logistics of shipping it around, don't hope you get that anytime soon.
Want to play the game on multiple PCs or your laptop? Carry around a massive stack of CDs because you need them for DRM checks.
And update was released? How would you know you weren't warned, good luck getting it at 10KB/s because the publisher cheaped out on the ftp host for the patch.

People took it as undeniable fact because it is an undeniable fact, PC gaming is more accessible and readily available. The service improved and PC sales are on an all time high, funny how that works. But it's not a service issue, no, the sales just magically went up.

 

[Crayon]

I remember when that drm-free exe leaked out for dmc5. I defintely got a bump in performance. ~5fps and steadier.