This is too good. ME3's release seems to have brought a host of issues with videos games and the industry in general to a head. Not only is the game's ending itself being criticized, but the discussion about games as art and their malleability, release DLC, and "games journalism" is at the forefront. Kudos to Bioware for lighting the fire.
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Forbes is Hosting a Mass Effect 3 Chat Right Now
- Thread starter CushVA
- Start date
This is too good. ME3's release seems to have brought a host of issues with videos games and the industry in general to a head. Not only is the game's ending itself being criticized, but the discussion about games as art and their malleability, release DLC, and "games journalism" is at the forefront. Kudos to Bioware for lighting the fire.
This is hilarious.
I hope more stuff like the above happens. Public gaming "journalism" battles are so fun to read.
Apophenia Overload
Member
ME 3 is the best meta-game.
Forbes might be one of the last bastions of integrity in the gaming world along with Rock Paper Shotgun.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Hmm I feel it's the exact opposite. "games journalism" says whatever the publisher wants them to say(and generates lots of clicks), and the gaming community tells it like it is (in the aggregate of course)
mercenar1e
Member
"He says we are quick to forgive and see things from a Devs POV as well as hope for improvements in sequels, no examples given"
GTA 4 & Kane & Lynch says hello
Justin McElroy. ‏ The problem with mainstream coverage of games: No one at the top knows enough to know when writers are pulling it out of their asses.
Is he even aware of the irony? The main problem I have with gaming sites these days is their blatant scorn almost bordering in bullying of their readers, and this douchebag is actually acting as if Forbes is some giant evil conglomerate next to small indy IGN. Anyways:
Is he even aware of the irony? The main problem I have with gaming sites these days is their blatant scorn almost bordering in bullying of their readers, and this douchebag is actually acting as if Forbes is some giant evil conglomerate next to small indy IGN. Anyways:
Who do you think is doing the clicking?
It's not so say there aren't people out there who want better journalism, but that most or enough are satisfied with the kind we deal with, so that's the kind we have. A lot of people don't want hard hitting journalism, they want to hear the exact amount of ass the next Gears of War kicks.
Fox news wasn't created in a vacuum, for example. It's a reflection of the very people who watch it.
Justin McElroy. ‏ The problem with mainstream coverage of games: No one at the top knows enough to know when writers are pulling it out of their asses.
Is he even aware of the irony? This douchebag is actually acting as if Forbes is some giant evil conglomerate next to small indy IGN. Anyways:
Every time I see that gif I just shake my head. He's grown man. It's a fucking video game. It's cool to be excited, but to publicly put yourself out like that is just... embarrassing.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I see your point, I see a big distinction between people who happen to play video games and the gaming community the former being the ones doing all the clicking
Really? He posts a piece that contains a gross inaccuracy (that cover games get good reviews) and doesn't retract the erroneous info when it's pointed out that multiple cover games have gotten poor reviews.
That's only integrity in the loosest 'Fox News' definition of the word.
It's also a joke.
I don't know, I don't think that gif really represents much other than Justin McElroy is hypnotic in nature
There's a reason why I haven't checked any gaming sites for the last 5 or so years. It was obvious then it was all phony, and it's even more obvious now. The fact that a more respected organisation is calling them on their bullshit has got some of them spooked. Or who knows, maybe gaming journalism really is just largely full of assholes?
Brad Grenz
Member
Haven't you heard? On the internet "integrity" now means unconditional agreement with the loudest malcontents.
Are these Forbes guys even paid? Cause right now they're coming across like interns.
Man those journalists sound like they think they're entitled to something. I don't agree with everything from that article 6 months ago, but it doesn't make anything Forbes gaming as said any less true.
I particularly like the blinders that a lot for journalists have on, for the fan being 'insulting' when they started it by slandering their own readers and resorting to name calling. To everyone that did that, and misconstrued the complaints of the community either maliciously of through arrogant and presumptuous ignorance: Go fuck yourself.
What does that even mean, 'coming across like interns'?
Whether you like the articles or not, they've sparked some substantial discussion in which they're actively participating. More than most game journalists do.
It amuses me how guys like him suddenly pop out of the woodwork here on GAF and started using their still-junior, unused GAF accounts (which was made back in 2009) to give their 2cents.
If his intention was a "joke" then it was a really shitty one.
Personally im glad some people are taking "games press" to task. Its been past due.
Brad Grenz
Member
I mean doing really sloppy reporting. No one had even heard of these guys until they started telling all the angry ME3 enders what they want to hear. I don't find the fact that their blogs are hosted at Forbes.com makes them any kind of authority when it does not seem like there's any editors looking at what they post and the writing is amateurish.
chickdigger802
Banned
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/pc-gamer-us-podcast-310-mass-effect-3-spoilers/
pcgamer has also done a ME3 endingcast with gaf's own Whitta recently. Fun enough imo.
No one really wins in the end imo. The only real chance of ME3 having the 'ending people have wanted' was if BW had infinite time and money like Blizzard or Valve.
pcgamer has also done a ME3 endingcast with gaf's own Whitta recently. Fun enough imo.
No one really wins in the end imo. The only real chance of ME3 having the 'ending people have wanted' was if BW had infinite time and money like Blizzard or Valve.
Well they had a good framework for the ending people wanted, even something the scale of ME2 would have been attainable, and more satisfying to the player. When I say scale, I mean branching paths.
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/final-mission.jpg
Someone did one of these styled charts for a hypothetical better way of handling the ME3 ending battle, and it really wasn't all that much more complex.
It's unfortunate that 'Forbes guy' had one bad article from 6 months ago, because now it will be used as a shield against everything Forbes gaming section has said. I don't even really care that a lot of journalists came out against the movement, it was the ignorance, dismissiveness, and complete lack of anything that would make them worthy of being called journalists, that pissed me off.
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/final-mission.jpg
Someone did one of these styled charts for a hypothetical better way of handling the ME3 ending battle, and it really wasn't all that much more complex.
It's unfortunate that 'Forbes guy' had one bad article from 6 months ago, because now it will be used as a shield against everything Forbes gaming section has said. I don't even really care that a lot of journalists came out against the movement, it was the ignorance, dismissiveness, and complete lack of anything that would make them worthy of being called journalists, that pissed me off.
For anyone who followed the PS3 Skyrim fiasco, the attitude of the gaming press doesn't come as a surprise. They acted as tools then, so it's no surprise they are acting as tools now. It's pretty obvious the gaming press doesn't give two shits about their audience and is often hostile towards them. That free gaming swag, free trips and accommodations, getting contacts within the industry so they can get a "real Job", these are far more important than having integrity or being professional.
They are just pissed off that their shit is finally being exposed and is getting attention.
They are just pissed off that their shit is finally being exposed and is getting attention.
TigerUppercut
Member
It doesn't take infinite money or time to write an ending that isn't an incoherent mess.
Basileus777
Member
I don't think infinite time and money are a requirement for competent writers. Hell, Bioware already has a bunch of those on their staff, pity they didn't write the ending.
Most game journalists are coming off as interns. Or snarky douche bags who are hostile to their own readers. Read sterling, mcelroy, especially. Kuchera can get there but I think he is better then those two. Slowly losing my patience with PA's gabe , walker on rps not sure yet. But who the fuck cares I am just on guy.
You just used the word amateurish. Already losing points. You sound like you live in your own little world. Forbes told me what I wanted to hear? Rofl keep up the delusional thinking so you guys don't have to admit maybe you were wrong. God forbid, it would be a first after all.
I am assuming you are a journo, if not just apply what I said to any of the other known game journos who use drama and snarky ass headers for clicks. There are some great writers out there on these big sites I know a few of them, a shame they are all interns. Be careful how you use that word pal, some of these interns have more skills and integrity then the main writers.
chickdigger802
Banned
I do think you need to be a bit more than just a competent writer to tackle this problem. Trying to wrap together a pretty flexible story with a healthy amount of variation between each playthrough into unique satisfying endings for every single 'shepard' doesn't sound like the funnest thing to write, or to try to make that 'ending cinematic'.
I guess they could have just show the reapers blow up death star style, and all the folks you helped out/or are alive just cheering and fade to black... but who would have been happy with that?
It's the classic bit off more then you can chew scenario. I just want some closure at this point. So entitled lolz
Basileus777
Member
I think most people would have been satisfied with standard ending that didn't go against most of the themes of the series and wasn't full of holes and asspulls. It was the attempt to be "clever" that doomed the ending to begin with.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Justin McElroy. ‏ The problem with mainstream coverage of games: No one at the top knows enough to know when writers are pulling it out of their asses.
Is he even aware of the irony? The main problem I have with gaming sites these days is their blatant scorn almost bordering in bullying of their readers, and this douchebag is actually acting as if Forbes is some giant evil conglomerate next to small indy IGN. Anyways:
Does this stuff happen in the other fields of entertainment?
I know that most movies, and new albums, get those little preview spots on TV, but those are pretty separate from the actual journalism in each respective field.
It's pretty ridiculous that all these people (getting yourself represented in a game, making a joke about how awesome a game you're going to review is, being at the beck and call of the big publishers) consider themselves to be the gaming equivalent of actual reviewers and journalists of the music and movie industry - when they are really more in-line with those little paid of preview peeps.
Justin McElroy. ‏ The problem with mainstream coverage of games: No one at the top knows enough to know when writers are pulling it out of their asses.
Is he even aware of the irony? The main problem I have with gaming sites these days is their blatant scorn almost bordering in bullying of their readers, and this douchebag is actually acting as if Forbes is some giant evil conglomerate next to small indy IGN. Anyways:
lmaoign.jpg
And one problem is: even if you are wrong, this is the impression that they give. Even if they are not part of the hype machine and actual reviewers, then the forbes article is correct. I actually read the reviews only to have a more detailed list of features, there is no such thing as gaming critique.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I really hope Michael Bay puts Armond White in his next film.
Sure it happens in other fields, for every Roger Ebert there's an EW and even a Tiger Beat. Gaming is just at a weird point where it's big enough that publishers have lots of cash to sling, but it's niche enough where newspapers aren't gonna give a pool of serious critics a print page or two a week to voice their opinions and most gamers are never gonna look there.
It's possible that, in this situation, everyone is a little bit right and a little bit wrong.
I think that, in general, Forbes is onto something when talking about how the hardcore gaming press handles certain highly-publicized properties. It's difficult for those games to receive real criticism, either in the leadup or come release time. But when they get factual errors wrong while writing about this thesis (be it in the GI cover story article or in the lazy bit about Gerstmann), they look like pretty crappy journalists.
Why shouldn't Matt Helgeson be pissed, if someone is posting factually false information about his publication? If you're going to make inflammatory claims about the integrity of others, you have a responsibility to actually back them up. If it's that self-evident, it should be trivial to find proof. In a way, his tweets show enough to build a case on (what does it mean to "work hard" to get an exclusive?). There's no need to overreach.
Also, I think it's hard to deny that gamers have done about as much to build this echo chamber as the publishers and journalists. The shitfit thrown over the Uncharted 3 Eurogamer review is evidence enough of that. There's an audience that wants a real dialogue of game criticism, but there are at least as many people (if not more!) who want someone to tell them what they want to hear about games they either anticipate or enjoy.
I'm glad Forbes is starting this conversation, because it's pretty overdue, but it's not like they're beyond reproach.
To be fair, the whole problem here is that their concept of "criticisms" doesn't include negative opinions!
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I don't think there's a direct correlation between cover-stories/exclusive previews/reviews and the reviews a game will get. I think it's a question of overblown these reviews can get.
Every time a "big" game comes out, it's like the second coming of Christ. Every game is the best thing ever unless it's a mid-tier game or a game no one cares about.
When someone calls Mass Effect 3 the next Golden Eye or Ocarina of Time, how can you take that person seriously? Imagine if every other movie that came out was compared to The Godfather or Apocalypse Now or whatever. It would be a joke.
I think sonicmj2's point is that you can't really accuse the gaming press of being too soft on games and then cry when Eurogamer gives Uncharted 3 an 8/10 (still a damn good score), or when Jim Sterling pans whatever game, as he frequently does. That sort of hypocrisy is incredibly common.
Hell, just look at reactions to most Edge reviews. Or rather, Edge scores, since people don't bother to read the text.
Hell, just look at reactions to most Edge reviews. Or rather, Edge scores, since people don't bother to read the text.
looks like his accusations hit close to home. I don't know a single games reviewer I trust, and those ones venting on twitter there are amongst the ones I trust the absolute least.
I believe he also defended the gaming press, yesterday or Thursday, in another blog post.
Video games are getting more inches and minutes in traditional media though. It isn't unusual to see a story about a gaming trend be a section front on a major metropolitan paper or a cover story in a big news magazine/website.
I agree that there isn't a direct correlation between cover stories/exclusives and the reviews they get, but it's absolutely true that an exclusive preview is always going to be incredibly glowing. The only reason for a publisher to allow that exclusive is if it provides positive marketing. I feel like Helgeson implies as much when he says, "How do you think preview coverage happens? Mission: Impossible style breaches of a developer's HQ?" They can't happen without the permission of the game companies. This has been true for ages. I remember reading a hyperbolic GI cover story about that online PS2 Syphon Filter, for example.
The problem is often that the tone of those early pieces create a kind of echo-chamber, where positive coverage triggers reader anticipation, which leads to more positive coverage until everyone gets lathered into a froth. Sometimes, it's those same game reviewers who get super-excited, and then they can't wait to wave around their raging game-boner. This doesn't happen for everything with a budget, but it happens a lot, especially with sequels. You can even see this process occurring with a game like Dark Souls. When IGN is planning a 24-hour stream of the game while giving away statues they're assembling in the offices, how could the game not get an extremely high score? And fans of those games are more than willing to fall in line to "punish" scores that go outside of the expected band of praise.
Game reviewers have the greatest ability to change this, but almost everyone plays a part in it.
Not slinging arrows at anyone in particular, but I think it's more than possible for a reviewer or a site to try and "massage" their reputation (or their self-esteem!) by coming off some particularly egregious fellation with a 3/10 for an honestly bad A title or a 7/10 for a sacred cow.
I love this post. Described the situation perfectly.