Is the crux of your argument really going to be railing at a service sector worker for making too much money?
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Forced to pay 25% tip at a restaurant
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Is the crux of your argument really going to be railing at a service sector worker for making too much money?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Nope, but I would like to drop the charade that they are somehow getting screwed.
I'm not here to argue which system is better. I'm just pointing out the false arguments most of the people in this thread use to justify not properly tipping their server. You can bring up whichever country you want, but the fact of the matter is we're not in those countries, and using those countries as an excuse for not tipping your server in this country (i know the OP is Canadian, just speaking from my experience) does not make you any less of an asshole.
Also, nobody's talking about how, in most of those countries, the price per plate tends to be higher to make up for the higher wage costs.
I'll tell you what I brought in a night when you answer my question.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Who determines what is proper?
Certainly not you, so why do you need to know what my nightly take-away was? So you can tell me whether or not I made too much money doing a job you know next-to-nothing about?
They work a relatively low wage, low prestige job, so I'm not sure what your point is beyond the asinine suggestion that stiffing a server on a tip is somehow not crass when backed up with paternalistic objections to a restaurant's payroll system.
Davey Cakes
Member
For automatic gratuity? It is.
If we were talking about tipping out of the goodness of your heart as a customer to a server, then tip whatever the fuck you want. Be generous. Be stingy (not recommended). Whatever.
But automatically? Usually that's something around 18% which is entirely fair. 20% is fine, even, since large groups are a pain. 25% is pretty ridiculous to force on the customers though.
I'm in 'those countries', and if you're defending tipping then you haven't seen how the rest of the world operates. Book a trip and travel, see how it can work elsewhere. Being a Waiter can actually be a career and not just a make-ends-meet type of deal.
The American tipping system is flawed anyway because you're not really getting tips based on your service, you're being tipped depending on how the owner sets his prices.
Caviar might net you a $20 tip, whilst a steak dinner might get you $5... How is that fair?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
No where did I say you should stiff a server (I've never done this, even for grade A shit service I drop 10%). On average I tip 15%; 20% for service that is exceptional (or if the server is getting slammed or seemingly getting shit on by other people).
That doesn't change the fact that mandatory tipping is absurd.
Again, I'm not here to argue which system is better. If that's what you're taking away from my posts then you're simply not reading them.
So servers are overpaid, but you shouldn't give them less money?
LaserBuddha
Member
Speaking for myself at least, it's not the tipping system I'm defending, but rather I'm attacking taking part in that system and refusing to tip under the guise of protesting the system. I won't call on people to stop eating at restaurants if they want to make a statement, because I haven't been willing to give that up over how I feel about tipping, but that's legitimate protest.
The only alternative to a tipping system is automatic gratuity, just spelled out a different way. I'm not sure but if there are people in this thread who are against both automatic gratuity and tipping, then my mind is really blown.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
You guys defending the system and dishing shit on those who don't or have a problem with tipping are just as much responsible for servers getting fucked over as they are.
But your right, lets defend the system that actively prevents fair wages.
But your right, lets defend the system that actively prevents fair wages.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
What is about tipping that makes people so passionate lol
Some countries tip and others don't. Get over it. :s
Some countries tip and others don't. Get over it. :s
Exactly.
There's no magical solution here where you no longer have to tip your server and NOTHING ELSE CHANGES. And that's really what people in this thread are asking for.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Yah, I guess I stepped in that. If you work at IHOP or something you are more than likely getting underpaid. If you work at an establishment were the average bill for a two people is $40+, then you are IMO getting overpaid for the work. Should they get paid less, not really. They should drop the BS about not getting tipped appropriately, fairly, properly, acceptably. The vast majority of people tip 'fairly'. Sure, you are going to get screwed sometimes. You are also going to be tipped well above the work that you put out.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
Or you pay workers fair wages and adjust menu prices so the cost is covered .
That way, even if only 1/5 customers tip, you get a fair wage AND a bonus if your service was exceptional.
Nobody's defending the system. Hell, we haven't even had the time to get into that yet because all the loudest complainers in this thread are demonstrating that they don't even know how the system works to bitch about it.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
rokkerkory
Member
rediculous
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Can guarantee you one thing, if we did that servers working at the majority of restaurants* wouldn't be pulling in $15-20+ an hour. IF the wage was coming out of the restaurants pocket they sure as shit wouldn't be paying it.
*Not talking IHOP.
No, the alternative is to build the cost of serving the food into the cost of the food. Then a tip becomes a gratuity again. In countries where hospitality has fair minimum wage tips are still a thing.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
What is unfair about Canada's minimum wage? Last I checked a waiter's wage is $9/hour before tips. If you don't get any tips, then it tops out at the standard minimum wage of $10.25/hr (soon to be $11 in Ontario). But chances are you'll be making $15+/hr anyway, a very healthy wage.
Tipping is a cultural norm in Canada, it's not going to change. Europeans can keep whining about it but whatever lol
LaserBuddha
Member
If you have a cocktail each then the average dinner bill for 2 people is $40 at T.G.I. Friday's. I worked at one and I can tell you the staff is not overpaid. The best case scenario in a day was on a busy Saturday walking out with $200-$300, and that was getting the most prime section (reserved for the few most top/senior servers) and working like a dog for 14 hours. This was in a restaurant breaking $100k in sales every week consistently. As for working conditions, if there wasn't a big lull between lunch and dinner (which there usually wasn't) then you could only rely on getting 15 minutes to eat something without even clocking out. At the very least a good 2 hours of any shift is spent cleaning and prepping to keep the place running while keeping costs down, because the customer wants a clean restaurant and low prices. All while making a little over $2 an hour. I'm talking cleaning like getting on your knees and scrubbing with a brush and bleach.
I don't think you understand what goes into that job beyond what you see at your table.
Puppet Shadow
Member
Both my daughters were servers in their late teens. They both would agree with the other servers in this thread that dealing with large parties sucked, and they'd be screwed if there was not a mandatory tip (I think it was 15% at the time, this was years ago).
That said, I was shocked to learn that an average night (6 - 8 hours) cleared them $150. A good night they'd pocked $300.
That said, I was shocked to learn that an average night (6 - 8 hours) cleared them $150. A good night they'd pocked $300.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
Maybe not 20 but but between 13 and 15 I would consider fair and it's not intended to stop people from tipping just to make it so wages aren't dependent on people doing so.
Also I doubt the majority of wait staff are pulling upwards of $15 an hr because of tips.
That's actually how catering works, a job I've also done. Most catering agencies here in Philly pay their servers around 14-15 bucks an hour to make up for the lack of tips. Has its pros...and its cons.
If I WERE to defend the restaurant industry in the US, I would say that the system is so reliant on tipping, that you would have to do way more than just abolish tipping to change it. The restaurant industry is one of the few industries where I would honestly agree that paying smaller wages is the only way many restaurants could stay open. The reason small to medium-sized restaurants can afford to employ the army of waiters, bussers, bartenders, barbacks, and kitchen staff required to give competitive service is because a lot of those wages get subsidized through tips. All but the busiest and higher-end establishments would have to decimate their staff if they had to pay them all even minimum wage, or jack up the price per plate to more than the average customer would be willing to pay.
For better or worse the entire industry is balanced on tipping. Maybe it's not a perfect system, and I wouldn't say it is. It's not. But the solution is a lot more complex than just "I shouldn't have to tip the waiter." And stiffing your waiter is NOT fighting the system. It's being a dick and stiffing the employee on literally the lowest rung because you want something for nothing.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Look at the post above you. It is pretty damned common actually, assuming you work at an establishment that serves alcohol.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
For worse. That's the core of the problem though. The whole situations a giant catch 22.
Puppet Shadow
Member
I think there's a huge disparity between the types of restaurants though. Also, where you work would make a huge difference. My daughters (see my above post) were servers in Vancouver, where it's not at all cheap to dine out.
If you're a server at Denny's in a small town, you're busting your ass but making ok (better than minimum wage) money. They may be in favor of a fair wage with no tips.
If you work a dinner shift at a decent restaurant, no way would you want the current system to change.
Fake edit: Not implying you're not busting your ass at a steakhouse, but you're probably clearing over $20 an hour (in some cases far more) and (at least here in Canada) a big chunk of that is tax free.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
I'm not trying to piss you off man, I think we actually agree on more than we disagree on. You work in the industry, I do not (I used too, as if that matters). I have a handful of friends that still work in the industry (again, like that matters) they prefer it to the typical 9-5. The main reason though is because it does pay extremely well compared to the other jobs out there. The qualifier is you really have to work at an establishment that serves alcohol. You can easily increase a tab by half if not more of the actual food cost by including alcohol (quite frequently my alcohol portion outweighs the food portion).
The only thing that I take issue with is the following issue (yes just my feeling):
The average waiter is in fact tipped fairly, now the reason why this is a problem is who decides this. Obviously the waiter is going to say that the amount should be higher...after all who wants to be paid less. The patron on the other hand is by social standards expected to tip at least 15% for the most part, regardless of service. Like I said, I would never stiff a waiter, I understand they are not getting an appropriate hourly wage. I also can easily envision their situation. Perhaps they are having a shit day, maybe the previous table had a wretched patron, w/e. The problem I have is 'mandatory tipping', and I say this regardless of party.
Additionally, no one (unless I missed it) is saying we should fix this by stiffing a server.
Yep. It isn't tax free here (but find me a waiter that reports that accurately). $20+ an hour for waiting tables is obscene compared to other jobs out there, which is one of the major draws to the profession.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
I love how these threads always have servers and waiters coming in, defending their job as some sort of extra difficult task, so that they deserve more than minimum wage over other similar jobs. The law is in place so you make at least minimum wage, and usually more. And as someone who grew up with tons of friends who waited tables, who made GREAT money doing it (much much higher than a minimum hourly would net them), and bragging about it often, my sympathy wanes over time.
The reason waiters defend tipping is because a majority of them would make less if they were paid minimum hourly instead. And then, gasp, they would actually make what many of the other jobs-that-require-zero-formal-education make like [insert list of 1000s of jobs here]. I always tip (I think I've refused maybe four times in my life), but the system itself and the expectation that some waiters have regarding tipping is fucked.
EDIT: Obviously this depends on where you work. Work at a fine dining establishment while it's busy and you're dwarfing minimum wage. A wage I, and many others, believe should be much larger than it is currently.
The reason waiters defend tipping is because a majority of them would make less if they were paid minimum hourly instead. And then, gasp, they would actually make what many of the other jobs-that-require-zero-formal-education make like [insert list of 1000s of jobs here]. I always tip (I think I've refused maybe four times in my life), but the system itself and the expectation that some waiters have regarding tipping is fucked.
EDIT: Obviously this depends on where you work. Work at a fine dining establishment while it's busy and you're dwarfing minimum wage. A wage I, and many others, believe should be much larger than it is currently.
300 bucks for 14 dollars an hour is about 21.50 an hour, a very good wage for a low skill job.
I've waited and I did plenty of different bare minimum wage jobs in my day and would say that waiting falls right about in the middle of the difficulty spectrum but nothing paid as well.
If the establishment sucks though it can be pure hell. If you get all the bad shifts it can be hell but honestly? I loved waiting because of all the money I got. It was the best paying job I had after all was said and done until I started my own damn job. It made me hate people for a few years but damn that was good pay. Good waiters who move up the ranks to better and better places can really make out. I know a waiter who pulls in around 90k a year! Sure he works six days a week but that's insane for someone who barely graduated high school. Hell that's only his reported income, I should know I do his taxes.
If the minimum wage is fair, then the servers bitching about customers not tipping are being selfish assholes. Just like the customers refusing to tip someone receiving below minimum wage are selfish assholes. Tipping should be a reward for exceptional service and it should be completely optional. Obviously this can't be the case in the US until the minimum wage is an acceptable level.
WHAT?! HAHAHAHAHAHA! I live in Calgary and eating out in Vancouver is way cheaper even after GST and PST. Your food and restaurant quality are also much better.
NinjaTehFish
Banned
I think my main issue then is calling it a tip. Call it what it is: waiters fee.
And BAM it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Stupid? Yes. But true and maybe that's the issue a lot of other people have as well: "Tipping" Implies a choice on the customers behalf. When you take the choice away and it becomes mandatory, it's no longer tipping but an expected fee and calling it tipping is disingenuous.
Sooo....semantics?
And BAM it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Stupid? Yes. But true and maybe that's the issue a lot of other people have as well: "Tipping" Implies a choice on the customers behalf. When you take the choice away and it becomes mandatory, it's no longer tipping but an expected fee and calling it tipping is disingenuous.
Sooo....semantics?
Service is generally far better in the tipping countries than it is in non tipping ones because in non tipping countries those people are almost certainly getting the minimum wage and have almost no incentive beyond not losing their job to make the customer happy. I find the trade works out well, especially if you get the reputation at a joint for tipping well and the staff will bend over backwards to see your every need met.
No, I agree that we're agreeing more than not at this point. And here's the thing, since the majority of people don't stiff their servers, there IS an incentive to working in the restaurant industry. If you put in the work, work your ass off, and have a certain level of natural charm and the ability to multitask, you can make some decent money as a server. There's no denying this, you have the capability of making way more than minimum wage (not that I think serving should be a minimum wage job). Just like good strippers can make more than minimum wage in tips, and good phone reps can make more than minimum wage through commission bonus.
Now it's not easy. I can honestly say that, out of every waiter who makes it past 90 days, you have about 10 who walked in thinking they'd be leaving every night with wads of 20s stuffed in their back pocket for minimum work and didn't even survive a month. In the service industry, good waiters get rewarded, and bad ones don't.
1) Waiting tables wouldn't be a minimum age job, with or without tipping.
2) I highly doubt you actually have waiter friends.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Nod. I'm not doubting that waiting tables is a shit job, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. The issue though is that servers somehow think that they alone are suffering in the trenches. Work retail, fast food, sanitation, manual labor, other service/hospitality jobs, etc. Servers are paid exceedingly well for the work they do*. Yet, all I ever see when this is brought up is servers against 'asshole/cheap' customers who disagree. The vast majority of servers would not do their job if it paid even close to the aforementioned jobs*.
*Again, assuming you are not working at IHOP.
that's is not even close to the truth. Service quality has much more to do with culture than tipping. Try go to korea or japan, they have no tip and the best service in the world
Notice, no server in this thread is complaining about the job. Or even claiming we're the only workers who have it rough. That's not the point, and nobody's saying that.
Servers in these types of threads get pissed off when people--who haven't done the job, and don't actually know how it even works--come into these threads and claim, with no facts or figures, that servers don't earn their pay. THAT'S what pisses us off. And honestly, it would piss ANYONE off, but servers get it roughest, because everyone seems to have an opinion on how hard we must be working despite not doing the job themselves.
And you're basing this off what?
True, I've never been to Asia, my service experiences are pan european though where service was routinely dreadful to mediocre, with a few standouts in France of all places where the service was excellent.
I agree entirely with him, based off my observations traveling in America and Japan. If you think American service is some kind of world-class standard you're sorely mistaken.
No, but this is still anecdotal, and not based on any rubric of what actually makes shitty service.
And, for what it's worth, I have family who have traveled to Japan, and will swear up and down to this day that the worst they were ever treated in any public establishment was in Japan. Then again, he's a 6'5 black man, so that might have had something to do with it. See how anecdotes work?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Double, nearly triple minimum wage is much more than decent money man.
Zero doubt, and charisma is the defining characteristic. Which is fine for me personally, I fucking love the servers at the restaurants that I visit, and in turn they love me too. It is a mutual relationship, one that I'm 100% okay with. Again though, what I'm not fine with is a forced mandatory tip. You aren't the special snowflake, you aren't the charismatic individual. Service is about 'earning' that tip, just like your stripper analogy. Very apt, I must say.
Zero doubt, but it wouldn't be far off. If the control for pay was placed in the restaurants hands, you have to be kidding yourself if you think they would pay you what you are earning now.
*Edit*-Pedantic I know, but I would appreciate if you quoted me out of the mist quote above.
So they only tipped 10% then?
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