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[GaimeGuy]

Yup, sure is. Really when it comes down to how it is packaged, U.S. foreign policy is not that much different under Obama than Bush...Its less belligerent, but that's about it.

I don't even WANT to think of how bush would have handled libya, the arab spring, and the ukraine/russia stuff.

 

[marrec]

*reads thread title*

Me: "Is it Richard Clarke?"

It's Richard Clarke. He's not wrong, but it would be bigger news if it was someone else.

Exactly what I thought.

"Oh wow, Richard Clarke's calling Bush a war-criminal... *yawn*"

Call me when Rice steps forward.

 

[Slayven]

What kills me is these guys always talk shit after they get out, but never when it is going down.

 

[m_shortpants]

I disagree. The only blood on their hands is those deaths caused by US bombs and bullets. The blood of the vast majority of those 100,000 dead Iraqis is on the hands of the idiots who continue to kill Iraqis on a daily basis, ISIS and all those other jihadi fuckwads.

You can argue that wouldn't have happened without the invasion, which is true. Iraq would have just continued on under a repressive regime that tortured and murdered people. Then think of those countries that didn't degenerate into bloodshed after a military defeat. I don't see why Iraqis aren't held accountable.

Well, the main issue is that the war was justified on lies.

Saddam was a ruthless tyrant but he was secular and he hated extremism. The country (and region) is arguably less stable without him, ironically.

Another problem is that US decision makers honestly had no idea about any cultural or contextual sensitivities and basically kindled sectarian tension with some of their actions.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Can someone explain how the fuck these guys and their governments walk around as if they all they did was a mistake?

Because who's going to stop them? It's not like voting matters, Democrat/Republican; it's still just the elite being the elite and shoveling dross to the masses.

 

[Parch]

What kills me is these guys always talk shit after they get out, but never when it is going down.

There was plenty of criticism when this was going down. Like the United Nations. Like all the countries who refused to participate in this "war".

 

[GTI Guy]

This guy is weak like Obama

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/29/dick-cheney-obama_n_5410105.html

 

[Paz]

It always boggles my mind when I see the 'no shit but nothings going to happen' attitude about someone causing millions of deaths (including many Americans) but then you read a thread about Snowden or Manning and it's all 'think of all the lives they put at risk! Put em in jail'.

I guess the whole ignorance is bliss // Better to ask forgiveness thing is real.

 

[AkuMifune]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

 

[Megalosaro]

That is the worst attitude ive ever seen, and van and will lead to tragedies. Getting your hands dirty is one thing. Dont you understand how many people died? We wouldnt stand for it if a country like russia did the same thing to a country we liked. And yet you say its fair game?

You literally just said its okay to violate a countries sovereignty and leave it destabilized and a mess, while causing untold amounts of death. Just so we can maintain "fear". What the fuck man.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

Jesus christ.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

?

 

[Derwind]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

....

Uh...

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared.

as long as we are feared.

feared.

...

The dark side is strong in you.

Good... gooooooood...

Seriously though, thats a fucked up statement. Explain yourself please.

 

[Mung]

Yes, everyone knows that they are war criminals. That is how they will be remembered, but unfortunately, they will never be held to account.

 

[Mung]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

My god. This is how you justify the deaths of over 100,000?

Sadly though, I fear that there are many people who think this way in high places in the US, which is what makes it so dangerous for the rest of the world.

 

[Tex117]

I don't even WANT to think of how bush would have handled libya, the arab spring, and the ukraine/russia stuff.

I would like to know just as an academic exercise. I can't say Obama came through with flying colors in any of those. (This conversation will go nowhere as I don't think either President was particularly gifted in foreign policy.)

 

[C4Lukins]

You could say the same for Obama and drones. There is no nice way to play war.

The funny thing about this idea is that the US has potentially gone outside of the lines when it comes to killing people.

 

[ronito]

Doesn't count if you WIN the war.

 

[Red Mage]

Yes, and so has Obama.

 

[Dyno]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

Your way has killed hundreds of thousands of innocents, bankrupted your country, and over-extended your military. Your way is how empires throughout history have burned themselves out. Your way didn't secure any of Iraq's oil, that's going to the Chinese who just sat back, watched, and had a good laugh! Your way hasn't displayed the strength of your country but rather it's clear limits.

Your way failed. A wise person would re-think your way.

 

[Earthstrike]

Haven't read much of the thread but just wanted to chime in about Richard Clarke. He actually gave Clinton Intel that the USA should be going after Osama Bin Laden. I'll leave the research as to why his recommendations were never followed up on to the readers of the post to research, but suffice it to say, Clarke generally knows what he's talking about.

 

[Hermii]

Oh it upsets me; these things used to upset me to the point of interfering with my life, but I eventually just realized that there isn't anything I can do, except to be the best person I can, and to be involved in local politics. Mankind has always been ruled by psychopaths pretty much; I don't see anything changing.

Yea history is the autobiography of a madman. And I think 100 000 is an understatement to say the least. To appear in Iraq body count it needs to be confirmed by two independent English speaking papers which there are none of in Iraq. There are no reliable estimates.

 

[Parch]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

 

[Himi]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

Same reason when anyone says anything about Obama it turns into "bububububu..but bush!".

 

[Aeriscloud]

Shocking News.

 

[Hermii]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

Maybe because Obama continued many of Bushes policies

 

[Megalosaro]

Maybe because Obama continued many of Bushes policies

This. As others have said, obama should be punished too. More so for his drone policies, since he didnt create false evidence to start a war.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

Both have been POTUS. Both deserve criticism.

 

[The Albatross]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

That's because Obama is the current president and many of the people who would advocate wringing up Bush on war crimes probably wouldn't advocate doing the same to Obama (if push came to shove), despite that both would probably be eligible under the same conditions. I think you probably would have seen the same phenomenon if a negative thread were published in 2006 about Bill Clinton... Many people would have talked about George Bush in the thread.

Don't feel persecuted, this is normal behavior.

 

[Suen]

I disagree. The only blood on their hands is those deaths caused by US bombs and bullets. The blood of the vast majority of those 100,000 dead Iraqis is on the hands of the idiots who continue to kill Iraqis on a daily basis, ISIS and all those other jihadi fuckwads.

You can argue that wouldn't have happened without the invasion, which is true. Iraq would have just continued on under a repressive regime that tortured and murdered people. Then think of those countries that didn't degenerate into bloodshed after a military defeat. I don't see why Iraqis aren't held accountable.

Why should they be held accountable for a situation U.S has been creating since the late 50's? Or is it convenient for you to skip several decades of history to blame it on the very people whos life they fucked over?

 

[Real Hero]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

You seem weirdly in love with your countries status as feared policeman. Why not just worry about being people killed. Which without America going into Iraq their would have been a lot less of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bossv8SKXv4

 

[EatinOlives]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

What is this "we"? You're not the world police, and you're not feared. The government of a country and its citizens are, for all intents and purposes, two different entities. Don't support ham-fisted and outright dangerous foreign policies just to feed to your personal delusion.

 

[Blader]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

Sorry but how old are you? This is the politicking of someone completely divorced from reality.

It's easy to dismiss the deaths of thousands of your own people and millions of innocent civilians in other countries as just "getting our hands dirty on occasion" when you have no fucking frame of reference for what you're talking about. The next time you talk to someone who lost their legs in Afghanistan or the parents of a young man who committed suicide after coming home from Iraq because normal people simply can't cope with that shit, then see if you can just as easily swallow the "Well, it was worth it!" pill.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Funny how the big powers (US, China, Russia) have either either signed but not ratified or in the case of China have completely ignored the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, otherwise every leader of these countries will be prosecuted. Again none of those countries should ever claim a moral high ground when it comes to foreign policy, anyone who does it for them is seriously delusional.

 

[ReAxion]

Leaders have been condemned as villains for much less.

ctrl+f "benghazi"

not a thing! I get to be the first one!

 

[Hermii]

Personally I think it's more sad we had someone so weak-willed and opportunistic as a counter terrorism official. Difficult times lead to difficult decisions, and I'd rather have those who are willing to go too far in charge over those who take half-measures and hollow threats. Would the situations in Syria, the Ukraine and elsewhere still have happened if countries still feared the US as the world's police? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not a position we can take just occasionally when we feel like it.

I welcome being hated as long as we are feared. And we can't be feared unless we get our hands dirty on occasion. It's far more evil to sit back, do nothing, and judge us while the world burns.

Would Syria be so bad if western intelligence didn't arm one side and Russian didn't arm the other? I doubt it. Besides a lot of these people fighting the Syrian government are religious fundamentalists. It wouldn't be freedom and democracy even if the rebels won.

Also Ukraine maybe wouldn't have happened if US intelligence didn't help overthrow Yanukovych, What does Ukraine matter to the US anyway? And how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine yet? Its got nothing on Iraq.

 

[Guileless]

If there were some hypothetical international entity that had the authority and abilty to prosecute every person accused of "war crimes" in op-eds, I put the over/under on how long it would be until the hypothetical entity committed a "war crime" in its enforcement efforts at 9 months. Under -130, over +105.

 

[linsivvi]

I like how whenever there's a thread criticizing Bush, there's always people who want to change the subject and criticize Obama.

In court papers filed today (PDF), the United States Department of Justice requested that George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and Paul Wolfowitz be granted procedural immunity in a case alleging that they planned and waged the Iraq War in violation of international law.

This alone is enough to criticize Obama in relation to Bush even without the drone strikes.

 

[speculawyer]

No shit indeed.

They approved of torture.

There was no need and no excuse for that.

They are little men who shirked their chance to serve when they could. (5 deferments Cheney and Bush in the Champagne squad protecting Texas from the VC)