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[Rodney McKay]

I worked in a similar open work environment and it really wasn't all that productive for me. The work we did was very easily done from home (document editing), but they felt that it was more efficient to be close to the other editors to ask questions and get feedback.

Thing was, we usually just communicated with instant messengers (like Lync) anyways, so being in the same room just led to lots of chatting. It was fun, and I got to know my co-workers better than I usually do, but I was a lot more efficient when it was quiet at home. Didn't help that they constantly had music playing throughout the office.

I have nothing against Agile workplaces and they can definitely be very productive, but in the case of my old job we just didn't have enough space so everyone just got crammed into the "bull pen." If I didn't get a chair in the room with the other editors, I had to be surrounded by people on the main floor all talking to peopl enext to them, on phone calls, or getting stuck right beneath one of the ceiling speakers.

This image is perfect and explains everything about why some programmers need to have quiet area to actually focus. I think I will print one up for work myself as a friendly reminder.

It also shows the importance of not relying on keeping everything in your head while you work.

I used to do that all the time for equations in Chemistry. I'd have them in my head and start punching the numbers into my calculator until I get the slightest bit distracted and *poof* I'm left with a number with no units and no idea where I was or what it means.

Writing your process down helps with not just losing work due to distractions (which happens all the time; from getting annoying emails, to conversations, to a fly buzzing by your head), but also if you're out sick or leave the company, other people will be able to pick up where you left off.

 

[TronLight]

It's work, not social hour. Talking and impromptu meetings are extremely distracting and a productivity killer.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25009451/ProgrammerInterrupted.png[img][/QUOTE]

This is true. This is so true.

 

[aromarood]

Having worked in open office editorial style set ups, I really enjoyed being able to ask questions to my coworkers. And just feed of the energy in the room, and when I wanted to write, edit or design. I would just put on my headphones and get to work. But I do think that employers should have the option to retreat into a private space when a project requires a bit more attention than they can muster in an open office space.

 

[jgwhiteus]

A friend told me about working at a startup where he was responsible for handling legal and financial work, but they had an open office space and the closed-off rooms were reserved for conference calls and meetings.

He had a lot of work he had to do over the phone (shocking, I know), and he couldn't exactly discuss the company's finances or its legal issues with everyone listening in, so he'd retreat from his desk to a copy and storage room which was barely used but had a landline, since cell reception was poor.

It's totally understandable that some offices (especially startups) are set up that way given the cost savings, but yeah, I don't really buy all the rationalizations / justifications that they represent some forward-thinking trend that increases productivity or community for everyone. No office should be one-size-fits-all; some people (and some industries) just really require setups that allow for individual work-spaces and privacy.

 

[Ikuu]

The company sounds as if it has absolutely no idea how to stay relevant let alone innovative.

lol

 

[cpp_is_king]

This part is the absolute worst. When someone gets sick it just rampages through the office and commonly loops back around again. You can't just stay home because there's too much work to get done and working at home isn't nearly as efficient.

You absolutely can and should stay home. And I know for a fact that people at Maxis Redwood Shores are encouraged, sometimes quite strongly, to do so when they come in under the weather.

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[Randam]

So Dota and cs couldn't Cary valve?

 

[CaptainSlow]

If trying to work in an open office is just half as distracting as trying to do homework in a university computer lab then it sounds like a fucking awful experience.

 

[Verendus]

In a past job, I remember going to one of the new offices of a telecommunication company. It's one of those things where you go and visit and they show off to you etc. Bunch of crap really. Anyway, at the time, their CEO (of that particular region) was really pushing the idea of an open office environment. He'd even gone around and done small presentations here and there about it. They'd created a huge new building and it was all open, and it housed hundreds of people. This was a couple years ago. I remember going there and I was actually surprised that everyone was in that open environment. From regular employees to the highest grade employees based in that building. There were no individual offices. So you could have a Director of Sales probably discussing something really important related to marketing, promotional or various other issues, and he'd just kind of be walking around with a headset in his ear and a laptop in hand.

I remember them showing me around, and just thinking to myself, I'm glad I have my own office. I remember going back to that company's HQ some time later to meet the CEO, and all the top dogs basically had their own office as usual. I understand the reasons behind an open office, but I do like having my own space, and I understand why a lot of people would like having a smaller environment which doesn't feel as noisy or hectic even if they may not get an individual office.

Different strokes for different folks. I think the type of work that benefits from this kind of space would be something like customer service or sales or jobs along those lines. I don't think I ever saw an office in telecommunications that wasn't along those lines really. There was odd one here or there, but even those changed later. The open office is present pretty much everywhere at big companies.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Seems like some really unproductive programmers if they can't context switch at all.

You don't get it. Context switching isn't hard. I can do it all of the time when I know it's coming or plan it. It's when you're balancing a ton of things in your mind at once and working through a problem that an interruption sets you back.

 

[oneils]

Steam and three incredibly successful, actively updated and supported games.

What is the third game? Team Fortress 2?

I've never worked in an open office environment. I have my own cube, and look across to our budget advisor (our monitors block the way so that we are not staring at each other all day). I think I would have a really hard time working in an open space.

 

[Krejlooc]

This is true. This is so true.

It varies from person to person. I'm the type who likes to vocalize and discuss my logic through conversation, even if it's one sided. I can't keep track when it's in my head.

When I'm alone, I talk to my dog as I program just to get it out. I also normally have music going, and my tv a white noise.

 

[Qassim]

I think we all assumed Steam was Valve's peak as well as its endgame. What do they have in the can currently? A console with Steam pre-installed? The company sounds as if it has absolutely no idea how to stay relevant let alone innovative.

I'm always confused when I read stuff like this. More people are playing Valve games now than ever before, more people are spending money on Valve games than ever before, more people are engaged with various components of those games than ever before.

From a games perspective, Valve is doing great. But for some reason, because they haven't done a single player release in 3 years, Valve no longer make games! I could understand this perspective if DOTA2, CSGO and TF2 didn't exist, but they do and they're the three most popular games on Steam with DOTA2 being an absolute juggernaut of the games industry, they get near weekly updates and have done for years, and it's still going (especially with DOTA2 and CSGO).

And if there weren't strong evidence that they're working on new games and their new engine, but none of this is true. We know they're working on a new engine, there is strong evidence of a new Left 4 Dead game, there is strong evidence they're working on their new development tools for their new engine, and we have even seen limited alpha releases of those.

What is the third game? Team Fortress 2?

Yep.

 

[Messofanego]

I'm proud of the products/platforms we shipped but I still want the prev. 5 years of my life back.​

Damn

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Oh god its so true.

 

[Ovek]

I assumed because stack ranking is was a Microsoft thing.

If Valve does stack ranking it pretty much guarantees a toxic environment.

What?! Valve actually run a rank and yank system? Jesus what a shit hole.

 

[cpp_is_king]

What?! Valve actually run a rank and yank system? Jesus what a shit hole.

Stack ranking doesn't imply that the lowest get cut.

 

[Occam]

I thought the people running Valve were intelligent. This is not how intelligent people set up a productive place of work.

 

[louiedog]

I know someone who works in an open office but it's much more modern, bright, and lower density than that picture. The people in her area have a monitor at every desk with almost all of them with a laptop (mostly macbook airs) so heat and noise are not an issue. It might be worse for the developers at the company who have more hardware. It's a large open space but visually chopped up by some very nice design work so you're not just staring at 40 people at their desks.

The office in that photo looks pretty miserable, but this doesn't tell me that open office plans are bad as much as bad open office plans are bad.

 

[mephixto]

LOL!, theres a common thing about open offices I noticed.

People knows when you are not doing your work. You don't have cubicle walls that hide your porn.

 

[Denton]

There are 9 people in our pretty big office at most and even that is quite a lot at times. But I am still super happy about it, compared to the mega openscape zero privacy bullshit that was just instituted at HQ of our company, where thankfully I don't ever work.

 

[JaggedSac]

Getting into the "zone" is very important to a programmer. Sucks getting pulled out of it.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Seems like some really unproductive programmers if they can't context switch at all.

Sometimes there are sufficiently large enough problems that aren't exactly modular enough to be done like that. When you have large, complex systems that requires numerous changes (or god forbid, refactoring large blocks of system), even if you have the benefit of whiteboards and documentation may never be sufficient in even understanding. I've seen enough programmers in various jobs who comes in early/stays lay/stays over the weekend just to work on things because it's more "productive" for them, and it's not just your average workers either, it's the ones that are the stars, and it can potentially lead to a troubling, almost toxic culture where it creates the illusion that these are super hard workers, whereas in reality, their total output is the same, but just done more efficiently outside of the open office areas.

It also shows the importance of not relying on keeping everything in your head while you work.

I used to do that all the time for equations in Chemistry. I'd have them in my head and start punching the numbers into my calculator until I get the slightest bit distracted and *poof* I'm left with a number with no units and no idea where I was or what it means.

Writing your process down helps with not just losing work due to distractions (which happens all the time; from getting annoying emails, to conversations, to a fly buzzing by your head), but also if you're out sick or leave the company, other people will be able to pick up where you left off.

For small enough tasks, and small enough blocks, agreed. But for sufficiently large ones, and depending on the need for complete documentation (and a company culture that actually encourages such documentation and proper code review), that step ends up getting bypassed more than it should.

 

[ashecitism]

I assumed because stack ranking is was a Microsoft thing.

If Valve does stack ranking it pretty much guarantees a toxic environment.

I think it's mentioned in their employee handbook

or other previous/current Valve employees talked about it

but they have it

 

[brett2]

As a long time developer I have worked in full sized cubicles, half cubes, open offices, at home, in coffee shops, coworking spaces, etc. If you are going to work in an office environment as a developer you need to have time blocked off where you will not be interrupted otherwise your whole day will go to waste. One contract engineering company I worked for had the best method I've found - mornings are for working, afternoons are for meetings. This way at the least you can get in a few good hours of development in before people start bugging you.

People who are not developers (or other types of creators) don't work on the same schedule so they don't understand the problem. Paul Graham calls this the Maker's Schedule versus Manager's Schedule. You can read his take here: http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html.

Why this guy felt the need to vent his frustrations to the world is unknown to me. If he brought it up with his fellow developers and they agreed with him (at least a few would agree if he's right after all) then he should have spoke up to management. He's probably right in some ways but he's also probably a jerk as well. In general though I've heard nothing but bad things about being a games developer so maybe management literally just doesn't care.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

General question - have you ever worked or organized a community project? Particularly one online, where you may never meet the people you're working with face to face, ever?

Those who can successfully navigate such projects do better in open offices.

No. I work in a group of around 10 developers, a few of us have offices and the rest are in cubes. No issue with face to face communication.

We contract out sometimes, but in every one of those cases, issues arise more from a less than perfect spec or a missed detail than anything. I would think the distractions and environmental fatigue would outweigh the benefit of the constant opportunity of face to face communication.

 

[cpp_is_king]

LOL!, theres a common thing about open offices I noticed.

People knows when you are not doing your work. You don't have cubicle walls that hide your porn.

I've been sitting here in an open office browsing GAF most of the morning. I'm pretty sure everyone around me can see that I spend alot of time on NeoGAF, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that I get my shit done. Not that I'm doing shit right now, or in an hour, or even today. Just that I get it done. I embrace the "zone". When I'm not in the zone, I don't try and fight it. When I am in the zone, I knock some shit out of the park.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Rich Geldreich ‏@richgel999

@skinlo01 Well, I didn't realize how awesome it actually was to work for Microsoft or DICE until I had the pleasure of working at Valve.

I almost spit cookie all over my keyboard.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

lol

There's a difference between visionary and just falling into success.

Valve honestly sounds like the latter.

 

[Ovek]

Stack ranking doesn't imply that the lowest get cut.

Thing is it shouldn't be there at all, it's not the 80s ffs.

 

[Deadstar]

He's really trying to burn that bridge.

He's burning bridges to light his way.

 

[orava]

There's a difference between visionary and just falling into success.

Valve honestly sounds like the latter.

Everyone else in the business, including console companies, is copying them and they are pretty much only ones who push PC gaming forward.

 

[benicillin]

I work in an open concept office and don't really mind it. Works fine for me. Valve isn't a great fit for everyone, like any work place, so I'm not going to take the guys word as gospel just because he didn't like it there.

 

[oneils]

Yep.

Thanks! Haven't played it much, so I wasn't sure.

On maybe a semi-related topic, I find Valve is pretty confusing these days. They announce a huge push to make pc gaming a more console like experience with steam pcs, steam controllers, and a steam os. Then nothing.

And their two huge franchises don't even support controllers. Weird. Why not start with that? I guess the steam controller was their answer to this. meh. Should just try to come up with half decent x360 control support.

 

[Lathentar]

You don't get it. Context switching isn't hard. I can do it all of the time when I know it's coming or plan it. It's when you're balancing a ton of things in your mind at once and working through a problem that an interruption sets you back.

I'm an engineer in the games industry. I get it, but feel like it is poor planning to not expect constant interruptions in the workplace. Reading this thread it's clear that some people thrive in that sort of environment and others can't handle it at all. To me it feels like Rich is not a person that works well in that environment and he just wasn't a good fit. Doesn't really mean that anything is particularly wrong, though in this case it seems like Valve is taking things to the extreme.

 

[RedSwirl]

I imagine it's a personal preference thing. There's probably no perfect work environment for everyone.

As for Valve's free-form nature, it's likely what got them ahead of the innovation curve in Steam's beginning years, that and no one else really believing in Valve's ideas at the time. Hard to say what benefit it's netting them today. Steam is still extremely good at selling people games, but for the most part its other features have been catch-up with ideas from others.

 

[mephixto]

I've been sitting here in an open office browsing GAF most of the morning. I'm pretty sure everyone around me can see that I spend alot of time on NeoGAF, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that I get my shit done. Not that I'm doing shit right now, or in an hour, or even today. Just that I get it done. I embrace the "zone". When I'm not in the zone, I don't try and fight it. When I am in the zone, I knock some shit out of the park.

Well, were I work people like that gets isolated and being know as the lazy ones by they other peers. They dont last long.

 

[Alchemy]

The Dota 2 cabal room picture is crazy. Looks exactly like ArenaNet. Same desks and monitor set up.

 

[Northeastmonk]

This guy must not want a good reference. How do references work in the industry when they're all on Twitter publicly defacing their previous employer?

I'm from a midwestern town where we all need that reference for our next job.

From what I get out of this is,is that being your own boss in the gaming industry is the best job in the industry or at least creating your own content.

There should be a department to hear complaints like this.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Who doesn't work in an open office? Even cop shows in the 50's were open office. Did Jack Webb complain about elevating desks on Twitter? Did the cast of Taxi complain about their open office floorplan? They even made software named out of working in an open office it's so popular. Is there an office where everyone sits in an office? Is that place locTed on the other side of Reality Highway? This dude reads like a My First Job blog post yo.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I'm an engineer in the games industry. I get it, but feel like it is poor planning to not expect constant interruptions in the workplace. Reading this thread it's clear that some people thrive in that sort of environment and others can't handle it at all. To me it feels like Rich is not a person that works well in that environment and he just wasn't a good fit. Doesn't really mean that anything is particularly wrong, though in this case it seems like Valve is taking things to the extreme.

Yeah, but his linked research basically shows that really no one thrives in those situations as much as they do under more controlled situations, at least that's how I understood it.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Thing is it shouldn't be there at all, it's not the 80s ffs.

I think it has its pros and cons, and people often focus on the cons. It's certainly possible for stack ranking to create a toxic environment. Valve's implementation seems on the surface to do exactly that, with people seemingly intentionally trying to make others fail so that they will perform lower on the stack ranking, etc. I work for a company right now that uses stack ranking where it is not nearly that bad. Ultimately what makes it bad is how the data is used. At least where I work, it's not considered an independent input. If someone gets a low stack ranking but still has stellar feedback from peers and managers, that doesn't mean he's doing a bad job, it means EVERYONE is doing an amazing job. That's great.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I'm an engineer in the games industry. I get it, but feel like it is poor planning to not expect constant interruptions in the workplace. Reading this thread it's clear that some people thrive in that sort of environment and others can't handle it at all. To me it feels like Rich is not a person that works well in that environment and he just wasn't a good fit. Doesn't really mean that anything is particularly wrong, though in this case it seems like Valve is taking things to the extreme.

It's not wrong at all, but I feel that for any company, especially for someone like Valve, who is interested in keeping the best people happy and most productive, mandated work environment that will weed out a selective group will only serve to limit the type of people that only thrive in the environment you have.

 

[Vhalyar]

I sympathize on the open office issue, though it seems like there's some really dumb decisions (e.g., noise sources too close to other employees) that exacerbate the issue.

We're about 300 employees, spread over 3 floors, split & grouped by projects. Most team areas basically look like that Valve pic. The open space does very little for anyone except create massive sources of distractions. We specifically don't have ping pong or foosball tables; instead it's shit like people going into the many "mini meeting" rooms to scream and laugh, people refusing to not use their open can headphones, sick people coughing and wheezing, random people drifting around all the time to strike up conversations, and so on that can be heard halfway across the damn floor. Toss in the open meeting areas where stands up happen (I know exactly what the other 4 teams on my floor are doing every day even though I give no fucks) and teams do retrospective (that shit should be way more private/intimate) and yeah.... Fuck the open spaces.

Even though it's not 100% open because we use an old factory building, so we thankfully could not bust down every wall everywhere. But it's enough to create an awful, non-stop audio and visual barrage. And that's supposed to be part of the company culture. Free spirits, meet anywhere, make the place feel like your home.

Fuck.

E: And people eating at their desks, so you get that nice lunch fragrance from 1pm all the way to 5 or 6. Stairs between floors are in the middle of each, so we have s background music of stomping feet all day.

 

[soultron]

This image is perfect and explains everything about why some programmers need to have quiet area to actually focus. I think I will print one up for work myself as a friendly reminder.

Our programmers that need to be extremely focused and don't want to be disturbed do the following:

1) headphones on
2) sign out of messenger and email
3) put signs up on their desk that say variants of the following: "DO NOT DISTURB UNLESS YOU ARE ON FIRE"

I think that works pretty well.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Well, were I work people like that gets isolated and being know as the lazy ones by they other peers. They dont last long.

Are you a software engineer? Suppose you were working on feature X, whatever. You're supposed to have it done by next week. People see you browsing the web all the time. And next week rolls around, and you're done. It works flawlessly, you get great feedback, your work is praised. You're telling me you still wouldn't last long? Find another job in that case, IMO.

 

[mephixto]

Yeah, but his linked research basically shows that really no one thrives in those situations as much as they do under more controlled situations, at least that's how I understood it.

Open offices work but only with a traditional heriarchy.

 

[Faabulous]

I had an internship in a company that run like this, it wasn't a huge company (there were at most 15 people on the office at any time) but we were perfectly productive. I might be out of my depth here since it was only an internship, but I really don't see all these problems you guys are talking about.

 

[funkystudent]

Some of the stuff that came out after they gutted their hardware team a year or so ago made the company seem like a bit of a mess internally. A lot of this backs that up.


Totally explains why they cant ship a large scale project anymore though. The company seems like a mess if you are the kind of person who wants to get work done. Eventually the demands of being a modern AAA developer outgrew their hippy dippy structure.