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[Chris Murphy]

I think the problem for some people is that Valve is using an open office and a flat corporate structure. There are no managers or team leaders. I am sure the problem is that if some groups are getting really loud or distracting there is no one around to tell them to quiet down or take it to a meeting room. You office may function well for a few days without management or team leads but imagine if they were gone for a year would your office still be as productive and orderly? I think some people can handle the chaos of Valve while others can't but I expect that it does have some effect on productivity and morale.

I agree. I can't really fathom it to be honest.

At the heart of every good game or film, there was someone that had a vision. I can't believe that Valve doesn't have people that other people consider 'team leaders' even if it isn't on paper.

The writers surely have some say of how their story goes? If the programming lead has issues with the story do they put it to a consensus and the writer changes the story?

There is certainly a management structure to Valve, I just don't think it is put in to contracts like it is for most companies. Certain people lead the way. They must have leads and project leaders for instance. Who is in charge of getting stuff done.... oh wait... Valve time...

There must be some form of hierarchy, how that works is a mystery to me.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

You're doing it again. You're putting words into my mouth. Nowhere am I making a comment or statement on the delivery of the project. Nowhere. Please stop implying that I am, it's getting quite annoying. Also please stop implying there was only one topic of discussion in his post, he quite clearly had two.

He expressed a dissatisfaction with what the project was "supposed" to be. I felt his interpretation of what the project was supposed to be was wrong, so I replied to that.



Nothing about that is about the delivery of the project, it is all about the aims of the project. I responded to that. Nothing else. You're intent on shoehorning my response on to the other parts of his post. Again, please stop.

I'll stop because I'm not trying to get you worked up, and I'm not sure what I did to put you on the defensive. All I have been trying to say is that I don't think that, even if we reframed meanspartan's original questions within the original goals stated in your link, that it would be any less disappointing. That's all.

Anyway, I'll stop engaging, because I've clearly touched a nerve or expressed this poorly. I did not mean to make you angry.

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[JNA]

Since this guy is going all out, I would ask if he knows if Half Life 3 is in development or not.

 

[Fersis]

Not my best tweet for sure. lol

Building and nurturing a company culture is a really complex problem to solve.
You simply can't put 100+ people to work on something without a structure, i believe Valve's tool are those yearly firing sprees: if you don't fit you're out there's no time to adapt.

On the other hand i've heard wonderful stuff about EA DICE's management.

And yes, truly open offices sounds like a pain.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Haha ok.

That is an amazing response.

 

[Blizzard]

Well as well as managers (only 3 managers, including HR and 2 Directors) we also have team leaders that look after between 3-8 people.

The company has been left 'managerless' for full days and people have just got one with it. We have quite a loyal self motivated staff but that doesn't mean that on the odd occasion they need to be told to get on with it.

My company isn't Valve though. The work that our staff carries out is infinitely more boring and mundane. They often have to deal with difficult customers, get abused for no reason and do it all with a smile. The company has a good feeling of community. Most of the staff are friends and I've spent time with the vast majority of them outside of work at some point. It's a relaxed atmosphere where everyone is approachable. Junior members of staff have been for a beer with myself and the directors practically on their first day.

So to answer your question. People get on with it because they respect those around them and want the company to do well so that they might do well in the future. I'm not sure that we could be completely without managers, but as I said, our staff are doing fairly shitty jobs. They aren't doing the thing they supposedly love. I would expect the people at Valve to be way more driven about the project they were working on an can see how they can be without managers.

Thanks for sharing your situation. It seems to me that there are a couple of differences between your situation and what was described as Valve though.

For one, with all due respect, you seem to work in an office with a door, and you are describing the behavior/motivation etc. of employees elsewhere. Did you spend a few years in the huge open room with 20-50 employees and computers, or have you always been in the office? If you have always been in the office, your situation may be a little better than some of those on the floor.

For another, the work you describe sounds as though it is not normal software engineering. As some have pointed out, that is a bit of a unique animal. I'm biased since I am a software engineer, but I personally believe that it is a little different from the stock broker / newspaper examples you gave. Yelling at coworkers may help in one industry, but not necessarily in another industry.

For a third point, as someone else mentioned you seem to have a bit of structure involving directors, people (you) in offices with doors, group leaders, and so on. If Valve tends to lack that as is often suggested with its flat structure, it might not work the same as your environment.

 

[vasametropolis]

Jesus at that picture from the OP. I've got to say, not that I'd likely ever even be given the shot, but if I was offered a job at Valve I'd turn it down in a heartbeat. Between shit like this and their flat management structure I'd get fired anyway. Who can do any real work in an environment like that. 99% of people are not self motivated enough to overcome that.

 

[chadskin]

Managers can see and monitor staff easily and whilst some of you guys that surf Neogaf all day would hate it, for a business it is a good thing.

There are people and studies who would strongly disagree with you that that's a good thing, i.e.: http://www.pcworld.com/article/239054/why_employees_should_surf_the_web_at_work.html

If managers need to keep tabs on what their employees do, the system is already broken, with regards to the entertainment industry and Valve specifically. These are mostly creative jobs where people need to be allowed to "breath" during work, whether that's just surfing the web, playing table soccer or whatever to relax for a bit. To effectively keep up a constant pressure on people so that they only do work-related stuff might pay off in the short run but long-term you are going to break and then lose the people who can't withstand that pressure. And in the creative industry, the more "sensitive" people are usually the ones who are the most creative.

Overall, a lot of what you're describing sounds to me like a romanticized vision of how it should be like, not how it really is (at least, in my experience in a creative job). I was in a room with slightly over a dozen people, some of which were doing vastly different tasks that didn't need the same constant amount of focus I needed and while probably 50% of the talks were work-related, the other 50% were chitchat about last weekend, what happened on that TV show or how awesome video game XY is.
If you are on a tight deadline and just need to get things done (long papers, in my case), it's extremely annoying when people constantly deter you from doing just that, even if it is work-related, it brutally rips you out of your current mindset and then you always need a couple of minutes to pick up where you had to leave off. At the end of some days, it felt like I didn't get anything done while I was exhausted like I had a 18-hour day, whereas when I was alone or with just one other colleague in the office, I really made huge progress and was far more relaxed after work.

But experiences surely vary, based on the line of business, the type of work and each individual person.

 

[THRILLH0]

I'm astonished by the number of people who eat the propaganda without questons - even in the face of productivity studies - and who dont get that open offices are all about lowering your status/self-esteem and symbolic control. You are working in a XIXth century factory, plain as that.

I'm astonished that so many people consider themselves precious little flowers who need complete seclusion - or a big important office door of their very own - in order for their incredible and unique talents to be utilised to the fullest.

If your self-esteem suffers and you lose the ability to effectively represent yourself because you've got people working to the left and right of you then that's a problem of your very own.

 

[Blizzard]

I will also say that I think the point someone made earlier was interesting: A huge open environment may be good from a business perspective, but bad from an individual health/stress/sanity perspective.

To take an extreme example, factory workers who are paid very little in bad conditions (e.g. the occasional stories about Apple factories and suicides or whatnot) may be amazing from the perspective of a company's product output, financial bottom line, and customer satisfaction level...yet I would argue that it is not a good/humane situation.

 

[SpaceDrake]

Those productivity studies only apply to other, lesser people. I'm (or my company is) the exception because I'm (we're) so exceptional.

The studies only apply to talentless whiners. Especially the ones that show people will often think they're being more productive in situations where they are not. Those ones totally don't apply at all.

While this is snarky and I think it applies to a few people who try out open office layouts, it can also be turned around - for some people, it really is the superior choice and cubicles are horribly restrictive for some jobs/individuals. It's worth remember that the open office concept came about because of a contempt for restricted work-spaces and the communication issues they created. And using myself as an example, Carpe Fulgur uses a 100% open no-walls "office" (of a sort, anyway) and I can't imagine working any other way. In fact, I did try working in another way for a while and it tanked my productivity. Moving back to a no-walls, direct communication environment allowed me to actually get back to work.

Now, granted, CF is a team of a grand total of two people, but that's something of the point: you cannot make sweeping judgments about any kind of office layout. There is no completely right answer here, no matter how much we might want there to be; it will always depend on the team and individuals in question. What one person finds "conducive to concentration", another person might find horribly cold and lacking in communication (and thus, perhaps, guidance). What one person finds a good environment for creativity and group consideration, another will find horrifically distracting.

The far larger problem is that, once an org gets as big as Valve (or EA DICE, or Blizzard, or any very large dev house), it becomes a real struggle to find an office solution that works for everyone, and sooner or later some people are simply not going to gel with it. If that happens, you simply need to accept it and move on. Stewing about it doesn't strike me as tremendously productive.

 

[Deadstar]

I will also say that I think the point someone made earlier was interesting: A huge open environment may be good from a business perspective, but bad from an individual health/stress/sanity perspective.

To take an extreme example, factory workers who are paid very little in bad conditions (e.g. the occasional stories about Apple factories and suicides or whatnot) may be amazing from the perspective of a company's product output, financial bottom line, and customer satisfaction level...yet I would argue that it is not a good/humane situation.

Great analogy and it really fits. The company being successful and employees being happy are two completely different things.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I'm astonished that so many people consider themselves precious little flowers who need complete seclusion - or a big important office door of their very own - in order for their incredible and unique talents to be utilised to the fullest.

Yes, as it turns out, some people don't like being bothered.

 

[sn00zer]

Interesting indeed. Even if I am not surprised that working at Valve isn't the paradise the internet hypes it to be and that handbook that has made the rounds might not be the whole story. I am hoping some game journalist will put in the leg work so to speak and do a nice article on this.

I have to imagine places where you work are places where you do work and cant be fun all the time.

 

[Vinc]

Isn't the industry pretty much defined by open offices? It's not all bad.

 

[cpp_is_king]

I'm astonished that so many people consider themselves precious little flowers who need complete seclusion - or a big important office door of their very own - in order for their incredible and unique talents to be utilised to the fullest.

If your self-esteem suffers and you lose the ability to effectively represent yourself because you've got people working to the left and right of you then that's a problem of your very own.

It's obvious that your own skills aren't very highly sought after, because if they were you would understand what it's like to hold the bargaining chips.

 

[THRILLH0]

It's obvious that your own skills aren't very highly sought after, because if they were you would understand what it's like to hold the bargaining chips.

You sure got me pegged pal!

 

[cpp_is_king]

You sure got me pegged pal!

I know

 

[Wereroku]

I'm astonished that so many people consider themselves precious little flowers who need complete seclusion - or a big important office door of their very own - in order for their incredible and unique talents to be utilised to the fullest.

If your self-esteem suffers and you lose the ability to effectively represent yourself because you've got people working to the left and right of you then that's a problem of your very own.

What if its not just to the left and right? What if you have someone directly in front of and behind you? What if the people behind you are having a conversation at the same time as the people beside and in front of you. Are you such a master of concentration that you can ignore all that? If so I bow down to the sheer might of your brain. Please teach us lowly peasants how to ignore your every working condition and only see the work in front of you. I am sure you trained in the Andes to truly hone your skill so not even below freezing weather will break your concentration.

 

[Randdalf]

I agree. I can't really fathom it to be honest.

At the heart of every good game or film, there was someone that had a vision. I can't believe that Valve doesn't have people that other people consider 'team leaders' even if it isn't on paper.

The writers surely have some say of how their story goes? If the programming lead has issues with the story do they put it to a consensus and the writer changes the story?

There is certainly a management structure to Valve, I just don't think it is put in to contracts like it is for most companies. Certain people lead the way. They must have leads and project leaders for instance. Who is in charge of getting stuff done.... oh wait... Valve time...

There must be some form of hierarchy, how that works is a mystery to me.

I think they do have leaders within each cabal, for instance I think Erik Johnson was the product lead on Dota 2.

 

[Zombie James]

This is so frustrating. I get so sick hearing about these rampant issues in the tech industry, everything from unpaid overtime to weeks and months of crunch, random firings, "cleansings", and everything inbetween. I used to work in one of these incompetent, revolving door, open office code factories and it was horrible once the new job luster wore off. Why don't workers come together and unionize?

 

[lord pie]

I can completely sympathize with this guy.

I worked in a bullpen style office in my previous job for around 4 years. A year ago I got a studio transfer to a similar studio within the company. Here around 1/3rd of the staff have their own office (myself included), and the rest are in groups of 5 or so.

There certainly are disadvantages to collaboration in my new job, but that comes down to proximity more than anything (previous job had better staff layout, the people I worked with most were right nearby). The bullpen layout made this easier, but otherwise there really wasn't a huge advantage. I knew more people's names, however I didn't have more interaction with them as a result.

There were *huge* disadvantages that ultimately led me to request the transfer. Distraction abound; noise, visual, vibrations (bad!), people walking near your desk, etc. Some people can filter this out, but I couldn't. In many ways it also discouraged deep collaboration because it would become so distracting to others - you can't just shut the door and take an hour or two to properly thresh something out.

One really subtle side effect was that people didn't do social things anywhere near as often, like go to lunch in groups. I suspect being around the people all day discouraged this. There were also the other issues of sick people putting the company at dramatically greater risk (bugs spread ridiculously quick), along with unexpected things, like having coworkers with unfortunate conditions (ticks) or a love of curry....

Ultimately the stress was too much. While other factors come into it, I'm much healthier now than I've been in the last 5 years.

 

[hotnheavyload]

Leonard Ritter ‏@paniq 5h5 hours ago
@HookTM @aras_p @richgel999 ask a game studio to maximize its profits and it turns into a shop ;-)

Ouch.

I am quite introverted so I'm not a fan of the open office space either. One place I worked in particular attempted some sort of cubical scenario with dividers that were just below eye level. This was absolutely terrible because people would catch each other doing what looked like a shifty side-eye constantly.

 

[cpp_is_king]

This is so frustrating. I get so sick hearing about these rampant issues in the tech industry, everything from unpaid overtime to weeks and months of crunch, random firings, "cleansings", and everything inbetween. I used to work in one of these incompetent, revolving door, open office code factories and it was horrible once the new job luster wore off. Why don't workers come together and unionize?

Hah, unionize. NO THANKS

 

[Wereroku]

Hah, unionize. NO THANKS

Why are you so against it?

 

[Zia]

I think Valve probably has myriad issues, but the guy sounds like a high-strung ass who has been venting for going on a year now.

 

[Kiant]

Can totally get behind the bad side of open offices.

Nothing more annoying than having important conf calls or whatever and just hearing the guy on the other side of the desk or next to you just talking about nothing, really loudly.

Luckily there is a bit of a structure at my workplace, even though it is open.

 

[funkystudent]

Isn't the industry pretty much defined by open offices? It's not all bad.

I think the problem here might be worsened because Valve has been in the same office since forever.

Studios like Bungie and Sony Santa Monica do the same thing but they are in large buildings on their own and had the buildings renovated for dealing with large groups like that.

Valve on the other hand is 3 floors in some office building in Seattle cramming everyone into every gap they can.


For example Valve.

Low Ceilings making things look more cramped.
Desks packed together in a unorganised manner.

Sony Santa Monica Studio (old building but the new one is basically the same idea)

High Ceilings making the work area less claustrophobic.
A decent amount of Free space
Workstations not practically on top of one another.
Cubicles for people who want a bit of privacy.


Maybe Valve need to move to a better building.

 

[RayMaker]

I get the impression that the best tech and game companies are the hardest places to work.

Quite surprising that a well payed valve employee cant at least get a cubicle office.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

What if its not just to the left and right? What if you have someone directly in front of and behind you? What if the people behind you are having a conversation at the same time as the people beside and in front of you.

What if you were in a rolling Katamary Damacy ball and were expected to keep working?

Serious mode; I've always liked this video about workplace productivity and motivation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=BE&v=u6XAPnuFjJc

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

You mean Valve is like most other workplaces and not some marketed Utopia? Color me shocked.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Sony Santa Monica Studio (old building but the new one is basically the same idea)

High Ceilings making the work area less claustrophobic.
A decent amount of Free space
Workstations not practically on top of one another.
Cubicles for people who want a bit of privacy.


Maybe Valve need to move to a better building.

That does look like an awesome location to work at.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I think the problem here might be worsened because Valve has been in the same office since forever.

Studios like Bungie and Sony Santa Monica do the same thing but they are in large buildings on their own and had the buildings renovated for dealing with large groups like that.

Valve on the other hand is 3 floors in some office building in Seattle cramming everyone into every gap they can.

High Ceilings making the work area less claustrophobic.
A decent amount of Free space
Workstations not practically on top of one another.
Cubicles for people who want a bit of privacy.

Maybe Valve need to move to a better building.

The people density seems to be a big factor. You can do open offices and organize it where you have a bunch of islands but with lots of room in between them. That alone would retain a lot of the positives while eliminating some negatives.

 

[Sakujou]

damn, i love those messy rooms.

cant believe that valve people would complain about their work. i thought they would swim in money like uncle scrooge....

 

[chadskin]

What if its not just to the left and right? What if you have someone directly in front of and behind you? What if the people behind you are having a conversation at the same time as the people beside and in front of you. Are you such a master of concentration that you can ignore all that? If so I bow down to the sheer might of your brain. Please teach us lowly peasants how to ignore your every working condition and only see the work in front of you. I am sure you trained in the Andes to truly hone your skill so not even below freezing weather will break your concentration.

Don't forget, in an open office space, you're not supposed to just ignore these conversation, you're supposed to listen in to every one of them, think about them and maybe further the conversation with your intelligent input or just learn from the conversation, all while doing your actual work. Can't see how that can go wrong.

There were *huge* disadvantages that ultimately led me to request the transfer. Distraction abound; noise, visual, vibrations (bad!), people walking near your desk, etc. Some people can filter this out, but I couldn't. In many ways it also discouraged deep collaboration because it would become so distracting to others - you can't just shut the door and take an hour or two to properly thresh something out.

Oh yeah, definitely, I was always glad to get home, shut the door behind me and finally have some time for myself. Being around the same people more or less every day of the week, for 8 or more hours, in close proximity, that just killed any interest in hanging out with these colleagues after work for me.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Why are you so against it?

Because there is a high degree of variability in programmers' skill levels. Collective bargaining is useful when anyone can easily replace anyone else. And maybe this is true in many code factories. But for people like myself there is nothing but downside.

I can already work pretty much anywhere and negotiate the terms in my favor. What does a union do for me?

 

[trixx]

I feel for him. Personally, when I work at university I have to work in the quiet area. Or else I will get ZERO work done. I probably would do poorly in an environment similar to what he's describing.

 

[VisceralBowl]

Valve on the other hand is 3 floors in some office building in Seattle cramming everyone into every gap they can.

For example Valve.

Low Ceilings making things look more cramped.
Desks packed together in a organised manner.

Sony Santa Monica Studio (old building but the new one is basically the same idea)

High Ceilings making the work area less claustrophobic.
A decent amount of Free space
Workstations not practically on top of one another.
Cubicles for people who want a bit of privacy.


Maybe Valve need to move to a better building.

They have 5 floors in their new building.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Open floorplans are significantly WORSE than cubes in my experience as a software dev. Constant distraction with little benefits with open plans. I actually IM coworkers and prefer that sort of communication 90% of the time because it doesn't break concentration. When we need to we hash it out on a whiteboard of conference room.

Agree.

I wonder how much this is creating the slowing effect we affectionately refer to as Valve Time(tm).

 

[espher]

I've always loved the concept of an "open" office, but there has to be a limit to the amount of people in a given shared space. There always seems to be a 'sweet spot team size' where a collaborative/open atmosphere works, because the potential for a couple of people in that team all being idle at the same time and engaging in 'disruptive' behaviour is far lower with a smaller team, but you keep many of the 'perks'.

Like, speaking personally, the sweet spot always seemed to be about 6 to 8 people. Any more than that and the background distractions/noise always seemed to get too loud and mess up my ability to concentrate/focus, but it was easy to communicate w/ the rest of that crew and it was great to have the resources available/accessible. I definitely prefer having the ability to plunk on headphones or set up shop in a common/side office when I really need to concentrate on something, though. Perhaps it bothers me less overall because I did a tour of duty in the call centre scene where you were basically in a very loud, very open cube farm (w/ no outs) and I've honed my ability to tune that shit out...

 

[kmag]

I manage 37 people and employees that limit themselves to only "get their shit done" are not what we looking for.

See I thought that, then I worked with a fantastic programmer who is not a self-starter at all but is freakishly brilliant that whatever task you set him he'll do basically perfectly in no time with immaculate documentation. His manager just learned his limitations and ensured his pipeline was kept topped up.

 

[Painguy]

lmao, basically...

 

[Wereroku]

Because there is a high degree of variability in programmers' skill levels. Collective bargaining is useful when anyone can easily replace anyone else. And maybe this is true in many code factories. But for people like myself there is nothing but downside.

I can already work pretty much anywhere and negotiate the terms in my favor. What does a union do for me?

It's not for you it would be to help the new hires. Do you not care that others around you are forced to work 80 hour work weeks? And how would it hurt you for others to make better money and not be abused.

 

[ppor]

Learn to take notes or draw what you are doing. Is not that difficult. Unless you are designing rockets or new technology, if your code requires 20 minutes of deep thinking to follow up there is something wrong with it. Simplify it so its easier. Comment stuff.

Wut. Unless it's a trivial fix or straightforward feature request, you absolutely need 20 minutes to think complex things out.

Unless you're coding straight away and doing your "brainstorming" in comments, now that seems wrong.

 

[Koobion]

Does this remind anybody else about those nightmares where you're back in school and for some reason can never get your shit together; you're missing books, missing utensils, don't know what the teacher is talking about, etc. ?

I feel like if I had a nightmare with this setting, I'd be trying to code while playing at a pool table. That being said, I have a hard time seeing this not being very overblown.

 

[samn]

It's not for you it would be to help the new hires. Do you not care that others around you are forced to work 80 hour work weeks? And how would it hurt you for others to make better money and not be abused.

As long as he's ahead, for now, he only cares about himself.

 

[Popstar]

.

 

[injurai]

I think the problem here might be worsened because Valve has been in the same office since forever.

Studios like Bungie and Sony Santa Monica do the same thing but they are in large buildings on their own and had the buildings renovated for dealing with large groups like that.

Valve on the other hand is 3 floors in some office building in Seattle cramming everyone into every gap they can.


For example Valve.

Low Ceilings making things look more cramped.
Desks packed together in a unorganised manner.

Sony Santa Monica Studio (old building but the new one is basically the same idea)

High Ceilings making the work area less claustrophobic.
A decent amount of Free space
Workstations not practically on top of one another.
Cubicles for people who want a bit of privacy.


Maybe Valve need to move to a better building.

SSM embodies my favorite type of work environment. Open air, but pods, and low wall cubes.

 

[Wolf Akela]

That public photo he posted, yikes! I don't think I can work there. Seeing so much clutter and cables really makes me stressed.