You would think with all the money, resources and free time Valve has, they could afford a decent and clean open office space like SSM has in that picture.
Valve definitely sounds like a really shitty place to work in. I really don't get them.
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Former Valve dev talks about firings, productivity, cliques, bad management, office
- Thread starter ashecitism
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You would think with all the money, resources and free time Valve has, they could afford a decent and clean open office space like SSM has in that picture.
Valve definitely sounds like a really shitty place to work in. I really don't get them.
cpp_is_king
Member
It would hurt me because the overall cost of labor for employers would rise, leaving less in the pool for me to negotiate.
People working 80 hour weeks can find another job if they choose. Even as a new grad, it's very easy in this market. Maybe you have to move, make some changes, etc but there is more demand than supply right now. All it takes is a little initiative.
Note this opinion doesn't hold for other industries, only software engineering.
Chris Murphy
Member
No I didn't always have a door. The company started in a basement in 2008, just me and the directors. We then filled the house over the next 3 years. We then moved to an open plan office with around 20-40 staff which we were in for around 1 and a half years, nobody had their own office. Now we have a 4 storey building where I have an office.
I say I have an office but really it is just a space with a door on one of the sides of the square open plan office. It is mostly a window and a door. I don't have blinds and my door is always open. I'm not exactly cut off. People tend to just shout things at me as opposed to coming to my door.
I can completely understand how a software engineer would appreciate his own space but stick him in a room where he is just doing his own task, I'm sure he'll do it to the standard that was asked, have him in a room with everyone on the project and that task might change organically with his input.
It might not be ideal for some people but It's obvious Valve like to do things differently. Maybe it's the Valve way or the highway for some people but they do what they do.
ShinMaruku
Member
All this thing has told me is, I am never going into game development.
I'm sure this guy has a point and how Valve does things works with the people who can handle working there and it probably has an net effect on what they do there with the place only holding people who can handle it. But could that rob them of somebody who can really help them put out stuff but is not for that culture? Who knows.
I'm sure this guy has a point and how Valve does things works with the people who can handle working there and it probably has an net effect on what they do there with the place only holding people who can handle it. But could that rob them of somebody who can really help them put out stuff but is not for that culture? Who knows.
That photo is a carbon copy of every "open space" office. I don't work in games, but work in IT and we have the exact same desks with the exact same monitors and mounts. Because of the lack of personal space, everyone just crams junk and bullshit onto their little 3x5 footprint of a desk.
Every company thinks they are "fun" and "unique" but its all so depressingly similar, and equally destructive to productivity.
Every company thinks they are "fun" and "unique" but its all so depressingly similar, and equally destructive to productivity.
I also worked at one for 3 years. To be honest, it is what you make of it. Motivated people will succeed, unmotivated people will not. I invested in a good pair of noise cancelling headphones.
Coffee Dog
Banned
why are people posting shit like VALVE TIME LOL and saying that valve's productivity has been harmed
like
are any of you serious
like
are any of you serious
Chris Murphy
Member
Don't they have roller desks where they can move them about?
Schweinehund
Member
Sounds like a place only certain types of people can excel in. Some people need structure & private space.
Yeah, but thats likely just to make moving less of an ordeal. If you are expecting to move your phyiscal location every few months, its likely a lot easier to be able to move your entire "cubical", then it is to toss even thing onto a cart or lug it by hand.
I get his points, but the dude should have rallied others who felt the same way and made this known internally. Instead, he comes off as a bitch throwing tantrums on Twitter.
And wow at burning bridges. If I owned a company I wouldn't hire him at all. He's a certain type of employee that's incredibly toxic in a working environment.
And wow at burning bridges. If I owned a company I wouldn't hire him at all. He's a certain type of employee that's incredibly toxic in a working environment.
Criticizing Valve as only being able to exist because of Steam is funny.
The Xbone can only exist because of Windows and Office. The PlayStation can only exist because of life insurance policies and real estate.
Valve and Nintendo are the only companies subsidizing their gaming platforms via game sales.
The Xbone can only exist because of Windows and Office. The PlayStation can only exist because of life insurance policies and real estate.
Valve and Nintendo are the only companies subsidizing their gaming platforms via game sales.
Suzushiiro
Banned
As someone who's worked in open office spaces as a programmer for the past three years or so, I'd say that most of his issues are more about workplace culture and population density in the office than the open-ness of it. The loud conversation feedback loop in particular is something I only experienced when I was in a place roughly as cramped as the screenshot in the OP's picture- in places that are more spread out it's not really a problem in my experience. I'd also say that having meeting rooms to
But it's certainly dependent on how much you benefit from easy communication with other people vs. how much you benefit from being able to concentrate on something with no interruptions or distractions.
But it's certainly dependent on how much you benefit from easy communication with other people vs. how much you benefit from being able to concentrate on something with no interruptions or distractions.
When he retires, I really want him to write a tell-all book on Valve.
And gotten more people to have been kicked off the ship? Valve's been known to kick out/cut people that "don't fit our corporate culture." Trying to take it up to Gabe would've probably amounted to nothing.
sirap said:
And gotten more people to have been kicked off the ship? Valve's been known to kick out/cut people that "don't fit our corporate culture." Trying to take it up to Gabe would've probably amounted to nothing.
This seems to be really hard to understand for some people. The list of talent that has cycled through Valve is pretty big, isn't it? It's just not for everybody. Gabe is pretty upfront about that whenever he is asked about the culture there.
How many of these 'problems' could be fixed by an individual being less socially awkward? The lack of hierarchy at Valve probably makes cliques thrive. I could see it being rough for someone who can't find their niche. And maybe that's the idea.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I'm pretty sure this is what one of the fired employee from the VR/AR team said, apart of course from the fact that Valve stopped pursuing that for the time being. She felt quite hard on the culture of Valve.
Have to look up on this though, it was more than a year ago and I really can't remember clearly.
its always a risk, but that still doesn't make it right to complain about it on Twitter especially since you're still, you know, working at that place. Always be professional.
Jeri Ellsworth. Also known as a person who dished on Valve and was bitter about it all, despite Valve signing over everything she worked on to her for free. I can see how she wasn't a fit.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
But he's not working at that place anymore, no?
Yeah, that's her. She was thankful for getting her work back, but still felt offended by the popularity culture, where only certain people could pitch projects, despite the no-ranking system Valve has.
Him rallying a bunch of employees internally would have done nothing. Valve is setup the way it is because Gabe wants it that way. People who go against it get fired.
Valve didn't want any of her work or patents so they were happy to give them to her. Also I love the way you are shitting on someone who knows Valves culture a hell of a lot more than you. Her complaints seemed valid and I can understand why someone could be bitter after they were told they were useless to the company.
DryvBy
Member
One of my first jobs was an assistant engineer and the open office worked there well. Mainly because it made sense to have it that way. Granted, residential engineers, commercial engineers, government engineers, planners, and others had their own open office. It was like a building full of various open offices until you got into accounting. Accountants that can't focus screw up and that's money.
But for more workloads, screw open offices. Nope, never.
But for more workloads, screw open offices. Nope, never.
theSlacker
Member
Can you understand how crazy and generous that is for a company to do? Even if they don't plan on using something companies usually never just give their work away, even to the people that made it. That is the kind of thing they sit on forever or sell.
Sony SM employee here, I get the point you're trying to make, but our building is not all what it's cracked up to be. We have high ceilings which is good, but as an animator, we don't have as much free space in the new building that we had in the old building. This is mainly because are workstations are packed closer together. We used to be able to get up right at our desk to act out an animation when needed. In the new building, we'd have to go somewhere else. There's a lot of unused space in the new building that really just houses furniture, or storage rooms that no one ever uses. The "cubicles" are really small and have low walls. I can be sitting in my chair, and I'm able to look over the walls to see someone else sitting in their desk. It's just weird IMHO and a distraction. The worst part about the new building is how noisy it is. I need peace and quiet too as an animator, I would imagine our programmers hate it.
When I finished my PhD and started as a postdoc, I had the option to move "up" into a 2 person office (from the large, open PhD student one with ~8 people). That's pretty much the expected procedure, actually.
Instead, I chose to stay right where I was. I think the advantages in collaboration when you work on a shared project are very real, and I also enjoy the social interaction most of the time. If I want to concentrate I use my headphones and some power metal. I do realize this doesn't work for everyone though -- we had a coworker who eventually moved to a different office due to noise.
Also, I think how much space you have and how you arrange the seating plays a role in how well the whole open plan stuff works. In our office, all the desks either face a wall or some windows.
Edit:
I totally understand the complaints about a lack of whiteboards though. More whiteboards = better.
Instead, I chose to stay right where I was. I think the advantages in collaboration when you work on a shared project are very real, and I also enjoy the social interaction most of the time. If I want to concentrate I use my headphones and some power metal. I do realize this doesn't work for everyone though -- we had a coworker who eventually moved to a different office due to noise.
Also, I think how much space you have and how you arrange the seating plays a role in how well the whole open plan stuff works. In our office, all the desks either face a wall or some windows.
I laugh at the idea of doing actual development work on laptops
Edit:
I totally understand the complaints about a lack of whiteboards though. More whiteboards = better.
LiquidSolid
Member
So as long as they're not breaking the law, anything goes. No complaining allowed at all.
What the fuck?
I have a manager that does this crap and drags half the department into his shit for an hour. Takes away 8 hours of total productivity just because he is bored and does not have enough to do.
Oh I understand but bring generous doesn't erase the shit she went through after they decided her work was useless.
Interesting thread.
What would people think about a highly adaptive modular office where...
- Each worker has a mobile workstation assigned to them (has their computer + storage)
- Office space is a mix of open spaces and offices of variable sizes (ranging from 1 person to 8 person occupancy (i.e. a meeting room).
- Majority of the space is open space 60% say. 40% offices of various sizes.
- Open space has enough space for everyone even if no offices are used.
- People don't get assigned offices; they just book them as needed.
- You're assigned noise cancelling headphones as part of your standard employee kit.
- You have access to modular screens to provide visual privacy.
- Encouraged use of work place instant messaging for trivial communication as well as work place forums.
It seems like you could get most of the benefits of open and closed office spaces with such a setup; by providing people with the ability to adapt to their moment by moment requirements and their individual proclivities better, while still encouraging frequent intermixing of ideas in the immediate open space and even on the virtual message board space (because the temporal and spatial requirement of been there to mix an idea general limits how much the idea can mix in the first place).
What would people think about a highly adaptive modular office where...
- Each worker has a mobile workstation assigned to them (has their computer + storage)
- Office space is a mix of open spaces and offices of variable sizes (ranging from 1 person to 8 person occupancy (i.e. a meeting room).
- Majority of the space is open space 60% say. 40% offices of various sizes.
- Open space has enough space for everyone even if no offices are used.
- People don't get assigned offices; they just book them as needed.
- You're assigned noise cancelling headphones as part of your standard employee kit.
- You have access to modular screens to provide visual privacy.
- Encouraged use of work place instant messaging for trivial communication as well as work place forums.
It seems like you could get most of the benefits of open and closed office spaces with such a setup; by providing people with the ability to adapt to their moment by moment requirements and their individual proclivities better, while still encouraging frequent intermixing of ideas in the immediate open space and even on the virtual message board space (because the temporal and spatial requirement of been there to mix an idea general limits how much the idea can mix in the first place).
George Costanza
Banned
Sorry but I don't care. I just want my next fix of Half Life. #backtowork 
sleverfunk
Member
Just give me HL3.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Holy crap, some of you.
Open office is great in production work, where it's easier for the technical and design side to work together.
The Dota 2 cabal itself looks... normal. I don't know what's so bad about that.
Open office is great in production work, where it's easier for the technical and design side to work together.
The Dota 2 cabal itself looks... normal. I don't know what's so bad about that.
Heyo_Rockbreaker
Member
I just don't get the complaints about the open office structure. It feels like the guy never went to high school or something.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
you think comparing a professional work environment to high school is a good thing? I noticed how distracted I was when I started a new job with open office structure. Thank God I have good headphones now.
Especially stressful when you're a game artist and you're already self conscious enough lol.
Some people think boxes are better mmm, kay?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Then stick tech and design in one space. I don't need to hear marketing, production and design going back and forth while I'm trying to work.
Really, you don't get the mountains of anecdotal evidence or scientific studies saying open work spaces harm productivity?
cpp_is_king
Member
It's really not a difficult complaint to understand. An employer is paying for these peoples' brains. And they are paying a lot. People in this thread keep saying he should just deal with it, or other people have it worse, or who cares if he's not optimally efficient. From his point of view,
a) that is wasted money by his employer. His employer is paying for his brain and only receiving, say, 80% of what he is paying for.
b) People with this skillset only got where they are because of a passion for their trade. You don't just accidentally end up a top-tier software engineer. To many people, such as myself, it is not only a job but also a hobby, a passion, and ultimately our livelihoods. Limiting our effectiveness at work is limiting our ability to be. I know that might sound stupid and extreme, but unless you're a software engineer who has dedicated your life to the trade, you can't understand.
it looks pretty shit
often, work spaces are where people literally spend a large portion of their lives. it's important that they be comfortable, safe, and pleasant at the very minimum. for such a rich and esteemed company, their setup seems pretty abysmal
I don't like people discrediting or downplaying the people who have spoken out and complained. it's more than just idle whining; these are all skilled professionals who managed to land a job at fucking valve, and they're pushing through a culture of silence and most likely stepping on toes by coming forward. claiming they should suck it up or strive to fit in is really missing the point.
FlutterPuffs
Member
.....and that's the point of the open office in the first place, by having everyone knowing what's going on.
It works and helps.
I expressed how much I like moderately sized open office structures previously in this thread, but this (everyone knowing everything that's going on) seems unreasonably far-reaching to me.
As a programmer, I really don't imagine needing to or wanting to know what marketing is discussing with sales.
Technosteve
Banned
am i a bad man, for thinking gabe could herd them all in to a programmer's coral just as long as I get regular updates to Dota 2.
It also sounds like this might have to do with the difference between introverted and extroverted people. I'm just guessing, but extroverted people might prefer open offices where they can constantly gain energy from being around other people as they work. Introverted people however might prefer something more like a cubicle where they can work without other people getting in their way. The labor world as a whole doesn't seem to be very good at tailoring to these differences in personalities. Programming strikes me as a highly introverted job.