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Gaf, I'm having a serious problem with my religion.
- Thread starter TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
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I would say go with this, but even then, a lot of religious institutions that are more accepting of what they deem alternative lifestyles are either excommunicated or are still quite the rarity. Believe god in your own way on your own terms, even if you have to do it yourself. Maybe even expand out from Catholicism and Christianity in general to get another take on the creator or embrace the idea that maybe there isn't one.
Just don't compromise on your beliefs to fit in with a certain dogma pushed by any religious organization.
kavanf1
Member
It isn't. It was written by men (they removed the bits women wrote, apparently) and the version in use now was cherry picked and ratified by a committee several hundred years after Christ died.
MrOogieBoogie
BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
Why not? Where would you advise him to seek help?
If that is what you believe, fair enough.
Funyarinpa
Member
Any god worth worshiping would not punish you for ceasing your involvement with these deplorable people.
ReadingRambo
Member
Well no one has heard from the big guy in a while so any updates would be man-made.
Just like the original!
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
There's a lot of anti-catholic feeling in Ireland these days, with all the revelations since the 90s and what not. I'd say cultural catholic is a good word for it.
But I don't know if I've taken it seriously till relatively recently, the last year or so.
But I don't know if I've taken it seriously till relatively recently, the last year or so.
Pantaghana
Member
Considering how incoherent the bible and some of it's teaching are, God should seek a therapist.
How About No
Member
ReadingRambo
Member
There is a stark difference between believing something based on faith, and believing something based on fact. The bible was written and re-written many times with many revisions and omissions. This is historical fact.
Do you have to go to that church to still believe it? I mean I can't say I know much about it as I'm agnostic/atheist but if your church/religion is doing things that are obviously against its own teaching, then it really can't be the one you should follow.
Also, you could always go to a Unitarian Universalist Church if there is one near you. From what I understood when I went to their youth group was that they believed to believe in what you want as long as it helped you be a better person (I mean I was atheist/agnostic and they were fine with that even. It was more about community and doing what helped you be a better person). So you could continue to believe in those tenants but hopefully find a community that was less toxic (and they are really open to anyone. Hell, they had a Wiccan come talk to us to explain Wiccan beliefs to us).
I guess they wouldn't do the same rituals that you would want for your faith in their services (I found their services varied though. I think they tried to be very open to different things). But then again, if the religion you are following now is acting in bad faith, are those rituals that they claim are what you need to do really that important? I'd think more your faith in your God would be more important (and being a good person of course).
People, time and cultures change. We will change. The idea is for the church to stay as dedicated to the the word of God which isn't meant to change.
Human interpretation not included
Jag
Member
Religion is an ancient and primitive mythology that was designed to control the masses and explain the unknown. If you dare question it, then you lack "faith". Faith is simply the inability of religion to prove itself. Religion is a long con and they have had centuries to perfect it.
Hell, bring someone from 2000 years ago into our time and we would all look like gods. I can't wait until the time when humans finally realize religion is a scam and we've been played for centuries.
Believe what it is right in your heart and fuck the religious men who dare dictate how others should act.
Frankly I'm surprised women have gone along with this as long as they have. The one thing all religions agree on is that women are inferior to men. Fuck that.
Hell, bring someone from 2000 years ago into our time and we would all look like gods. I can't wait until the time when humans finally realize religion is a scam and we've been played for centuries.
Believe what it is right in your heart and fuck the religious men who dare dictate how others should act.
Frankly I'm surprised women have gone along with this as long as they have. The one thing all religions agree on is that women are inferior to men. Fuck that.
mcz117chief
Member
New Testament is not outdated, the Old Testament is. You have to be careful with that. The New Testament should be your primary source of your spirituality and Old Testament as just a historical book that precedes New Testament. Of course, there is a lot to learn from the Old Testament but if it is even slightly in conflict with Jesus' teachings then it no longer applies. Jesus never discriminated against anyone, he said that the gospel is for all men and women, including lgbt (I'm a catholic and my godfather is gay).
So, if the clergy in your area are assholes and rapists then you are not obligated to visit them or anything, if there isn't a single church where you feel comfortable in your area then don't go to church. However there are other places that have mass on Sunday, look if there is a monastery or a religious order in your area, I am certain that monks, nuns or anyone else would permit you to go to mass with them if you asked them.
Stay strong, OP and don't give up. Faith, love and hope, always.
kavanf1
Member
I believe it because that's what the evidence shows. If there were even a single solitary shred of evidence to show otherwise, I'd concede it as a possibility, but there isn't.
Anyway, probably not the place to be having that discussion. Apologies for going off topic.
Yup, translations, edits, removals, additions etc, For 1000's of years. Actual fact. The core root of the bible has not changed though, only how people interpret/twist it. If the OP has a solid belief in god and in the bible, he would need to look at that to make a choice for himself, not a forum.
bonesmccoy
Banned
When was the last time you attended Mass? Recently? If yes, can you tell me if the priest/deacon talked about love/forgiveness or went with the fire and brimstone routine?
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Think about all the hundreds of years the religion was used as a way to govern the masses. And think about how much it was written to be used in ways of control.
In my opinion (and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or degrade your religion), but you can believe in faith and god, study the history of the religion, live what you find as a morale life, all while not having to go to church or what have you.
In my opinion (and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or degrade your religion), but you can believe in faith and god, study the history of the religion, live what you find as a morale life, all while not having to go to church or what have you.
MrOogieBoogie
BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Last Sunday. And the answer was a bit of both. The sermon was about how god will forgive even the worse sinners if they repent, but only if they repent.
Inferno313
Banned
Does it really though? Back when I was religious, I looked into this pretty heavily, and came away uncertain.
The most explicit verse people use to decry homosexuality in the Bible is Leviticus 20:13. Right next to the verses about how adulteresses should be stoned, and menstruating women should be sent to the edge of town.
However, a Christian is not held by the laws in Leviticus. The idea being that when Jesus died on the cross, the old law was no longer necessary.
Now, In the New Testament, which are the teachings that Christians are actually supposed to follow, homosexuality is addressed three times.
However, it's important to consider the societal and cultural context of what exactly "homosexuality" meant back then.
The OCD says this about homosexuality in ancient Greece and Rome:
A lot of writing argues that the uses of "homosexual" in the New Testament would better be translated as "pervert" or "pedophile" and are referring to the common practice at the time of Roman men coercing their young apprentices into sexual acts.
I honestly don't see the evidence that the Bible has anything to say about modern, loving, homosexual relationships. I'm not religious anymore, but I don't see anything wrong with being a Christian and believing that Homsexuality isn't a sin.
I think believing in God and following a church are a separate thing. If you still believe in God but don't view yourself (or God) in the actions of the church you are better off going your separate ways while keeping your faith.
I don't believe in God myself but have nothing against those that do. I do, however, have a problem with people who preach outdated views of the world or encourage unhealthy behaviours (like saying sex is wrong and we should be ashamed of it) so I'm against most organised religions. Not because of God existing or not but because I don't think their influence as organizations is a good one.
I don't believe in God myself but have nothing against those that do. I do, however, have a problem with people who preach outdated views of the world or encourage unhealthy behaviours (like saying sex is wrong and we should be ashamed of it) so I'm against most organised religions. Not because of God existing or not but because I don't think their influence as organizations is a good one.
VendettaRed07
Member
Not really. Religion does change over time just like every other institution. Even devout religious people do not take seriously some aspects of religious text that people once did. Nobody follows the bible 100%, it just isn't possible. It's just will take more time for people to accept it.
Exactly those were some of the reasons of why I went into full agnostic mode (not atheist).
I love the philosophy behind Jesus' words, and how you should do good to others and love others, and don't do bad, etc. However, I really dislike what most churches and believers do. So I separated myself from all of that, and continue believing what I believe.
Perhaps do some investigation over other religions, that connect with what you believe. Check out other churches or believers that may connect as well. Not every believer and church are bad.
The other route is continue your believes without taking into account what your church tells that should be done. One of the reasons of why there are so many ramifications of this religion is because not everyone likes everything being said by their church, so they move on to something else.
Keep believing what you feel is the correct, and keep on doing good. And research
I love the philosophy behind Jesus' words, and how you should do good to others and love others, and don't do bad, etc. However, I really dislike what most churches and believers do. So I separated myself from all of that, and continue believing what I believe.
Perhaps do some investigation over other religions, that connect with what you believe. Check out other churches or believers that may connect as well. Not every believer and church are bad.
The other route is continue your believes without taking into account what your church tells that should be done. One of the reasons of why there are so many ramifications of this religion is because not everyone likes everything being said by their church, so they move on to something else.
Keep believing what you feel is the correct, and keep on doing good. And research
OP, do you have many friends that are not Catholic or culturally Catholic?
If so, maybe spend some more time with them doing something "boring" like grabbing a cup of joe, going to an event, find cool things going on in the community that seem fun/interesting but have no association with your religion.
It might give you a little time to clear your head while you understandably struggle with your faith at this time.
If so, maybe spend some more time with them doing something "boring" like grabbing a cup of joe, going to an event, find cool things going on in the community that seem fun/interesting but have no association with your religion.
It might give you a little time to clear your head while you understandably struggle with your faith at this time.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Of my (two) friends, one is a hardcore catholic who thinks gay people are disgusting and thinks the rapture will be coming soon to wipe us all out, and the other doesn't care one way or the other.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Sure it is.
OP, as a Christian, I am constantly appalled and embarrassed at the treatment of the LGBT community.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
As am I, I think its disgraceful. We should be about love and togetherness, not prosecuting people for such crap.
Good luck op, I hope you find an answer to your doubts, whether it be in another parish OR another religion that more closely aligns with your beliefs.
Having attended Catholic education institutions since birth (up to my undergrad degree) I can say that I was fortunate enough to learn a lot about my religion. During my time away from the Church (my apostate years HAHA) I read up on other religions as I found the similarities in them terribly interesting.
I have since returned to the Church, and while I'm not nearly as devout as others I know, I am happier now, and feel "at home". I hope the same for you, wherever you land.
Having attended Catholic education institutions since birth (up to my undergrad degree) I can say that I was fortunate enough to learn a lot about my religion. During my time away from the Church (my apostate years HAHA) I read up on other religions as I found the similarities in them terribly interesting.
I have since returned to the Church, and while I'm not nearly as devout as others I know, I am happier now, and feel "at home". I hope the same for you, wherever you land.
I see. Do you have anything you regularly do on your own much?
I guess the take-away I was going for here is to have you try out something that you think you would enjoy that gets you in a more neutral environment. Maybe sign up for a local "fun league" sports team in something, take a cooking class, try out martial arts at a dojo, see if any community events are available through the local library, etc.
Something that doesn't have to be about your religion, where maybe you could meet other people who are doing just fine without being Catholic (dojos/gyms tend to be good places for this).
Sometimes being in impartial environments can offer perspective and give you somewhere "away" from your home, and reminders of your struggle with your faith atm. It might help you process and make decisions on what you're going through here, as well as just being good, clean fun.
You can find another denomination or you can drop the institution while continuing your belief in God. I think the important thing to note is that the clergy are just people and Jesus' message was really simple and you don't really have to be apart of a church to practice it.
I haven't been to a church in years, I think those institutions due to their size can't really be too helpful with the individual. You can always find a small group of like minded believers and discuss the aspects of your faith with them.
Edit: I also think it's important to separate the institution and its higher ups from the general message and core values of the religion. It's ok to question that authority especially when they're contradicting their teachings, but that doesn't make the teachings themselves any less meaningful.
I haven't been to a church in years, I think those institutions due to their size can't really be too helpful with the individual. You can always find a small group of like minded believers and discuss the aspects of your faith with them.
Edit: I also think it's important to separate the institution and its higher ups from the general message and core values of the religion. It's ok to question that authority especially when they're contradicting their teachings, but that doesn't make the teachings themselves any less meaningful.
Sunset Samurai
Member
Best way to go is Non-Denominaton. Besides I think denmmominations in general separates us a christians
mcz117chief
Member
OP have you read my post? I think it will help you, man.
You absolutely have to. Jesus founded the Church and asked Peter to take care of it and gather everyone there. Church is here to provide salvation for the others, you can't provide salvation for yourself. Jesus IS the Church, if you are wilfully not part of the Church then you are wilfully distancing yourself from God.
If I were a believer, I would still avoid organized religion and just see my beliefs as something personal. Because, seriously, organized religion can be super nasty. That's more or less what my parents do, they never go to church or ask their respective religious leaders what's wrong and what's not.
Christian here also and I have to agree with this. I hate it when my mom (also a Christian), refers to them as a word that my get me banned here on GAF, but I'm sure all of you know what it is. She never does it in public but I'm afraid that it might slip some day and I don't want anyone to lash out at her for it.
LegendofLex
Member
I was able to make peace with the issues of the Catholic Church through a simple exercise: I rejected the belief in infallible doctrine.
After doing that, I ended up much happier. The Church was no longer this divine institution that can say and do no wrong; it's a religion made up of fallible human beings whose traditions are like any other - many of them very old, with some good ones that should be venerated and some bad ones that should be pruned.
Given how steeped the Church is in maintaining tradition, I shouldn't expect it as an institution to change those traditions very quickly (if at all) because its mission as an institution is simply to preserve and transmit tradition for future generations.
As a tradition-preserving instrument, it does its job best when it's resistant to innovations and new ideas (e.g., the Church's teaching has been surprisingly resilient against many of the grosser incursions of capitalist/social Darwinist ideas against the central concept of Christian charity and unconditional love, and that's to the Church's credit), so I'm at peace with accepting that change may come slowly or not at all. Nonetheless, we've seen that as baseline assumptions have shifted over the years, the Catholic Church has eventually shifted with them (e.g. rejecting geocentrism, accepting evolution, rejecting the death penalty, etc.). It's simply a matter of time before many of the premises used to uphold some of the more obviously wrong traditions are simply no longer valid.
And so we should question those practices and traditions that we find wrong, and should reject them as we find them.
After doing that, I ended up much happier. The Church was no longer this divine institution that can say and do no wrong; it's a religion made up of fallible human beings whose traditions are like any other - many of them very old, with some good ones that should be venerated and some bad ones that should be pruned.
Given how steeped the Church is in maintaining tradition, I shouldn't expect it as an institution to change those traditions very quickly (if at all) because its mission as an institution is simply to preserve and transmit tradition for future generations.
As a tradition-preserving instrument, it does its job best when it's resistant to innovations and new ideas (e.g., the Church's teaching has been surprisingly resilient against many of the grosser incursions of capitalist/social Darwinist ideas against the central concept of Christian charity and unconditional love, and that's to the Church's credit), so I'm at peace with accepting that change may come slowly or not at all. Nonetheless, we've seen that as baseline assumptions have shifted over the years, the Catholic Church has eventually shifted with them (e.g. rejecting geocentrism, accepting evolution, rejecting the death penalty, etc.). It's simply a matter of time before many of the premises used to uphold some of the more obviously wrong traditions are simply no longer valid.
And so we should question those practices and traditions that we find wrong, and should reject them as we find them.
Hipster Cthulhu
Banned
The Catholic Church's rules about sexuality exist to control your natural feelings completely, so that you do what they say and think what they tell you to think, you're only allowed to have sex to make kids so your kids can also be brainwashed. Read 1984, it is very applicable to organized religion, Catholicism especially.
SkeptiMism
Member
OP, I'm happy you've come to question things. Not because I wished you to be an atheist or anything, I don't care about that, but blind faith just isn't a good thing. Continue with your path, it's not an easy one and nobody has the exact answers for you. There are at least a couple of smart and very knowledgeable Christians here who share similar views (at least from what you say in the OP) who might be able to help you.
Otherwise too it's really no wonder. Historically looking, there are a lot of ideas in Christianity that really seem to be there to control people (like if you don't believe then you go to hell, no excuses!). That way the religion has really sort of cultivated the idea of fire and brimstone through the centuries.
I do wish Christianity as a whole would focus more on the grace and salvation, but it's hard for it to get there.
It's really no wonder though. They can't really keep it all about grace and salvation when some of their practices and ideas hurt so many people. Rightfully those horrible ideas and practices then get a lot more attention and then, of course, believers continue saying their Bible is right. It's a nasty cycle that won't stop until the Church and majority of believers really start to reconsider how hurtful their ideas really are.
Otherwise too it's really no wonder. Historically looking, there are a lot of ideas in Christianity that really seem to be there to control people (like if you don't believe then you go to hell, no excuses!). That way the religion has really sort of cultivated the idea of fire and brimstone through the centuries.
I do wish Christianity as a whole would focus more on the grace and salvation, but it's hard for it to get there.
Yeah, I mean I'm not catholic nor do I agree with your post. I don't want to get into a bible quoting match, essentially this is why there are a ton of denominations.
And i have to chuckle at 'willfully distancing myself from God'. That is not an accurate claim to make at all considering my perspective (and even my post history).
This is what it boils down to. I am a believer in my faith, but I don't put my faith in humanity because men fail, have failed, and will continue to fail no matter their religion. All religions and non-religious people have a % that do terrible things because... We're human. Turning off desires, no matter how selfish or wrong or right, is a hard thing to do and some people have better self control than others.
It's unfortunate and a tragedy that the issues of abuse have been evident around specific clergy but not surprising as they are just men. People do like to think of them as enlightened or closer to God, but they are really just men trying to be a certain way, and ultimately will fail (sin) just like everyone else.
This is something you need to figure out for yourself what you believe and want to believe, as its faith based. It's not easy to reconcile things man has done with a divine God, but it is possible when you remember men have free will to do right or wrong as they see fit.
mcz117chief
Member
I have been going to the church for years and have been studying theology for 4 years now and hell is not only never mentioned but is no longer held as a fact, only as a hypothesis that very few hold today. For the simple reason that hell makes no sense in Christianity, it would serve no purpose.
I would never start to "Bible quote match" anyone since it is kind of pointless unless both parties are studied exegetes. However, you can't be part of the Church and not be part of the Church at the same time.
It's super crappy that religion has a particular hate boner for sexual minorities. Like, I feel they protest against LGBT "sins" way more than they do for other "sins". And it's all under the assumption that people wake up one day and say "yes, I've decided to become part of a hated, marginalized minority even though this can potentially risk my relationships with the people I love, my job, or my life (depending on where you live)", and that LGBT rights clearly aim to convert people into homosexuals (since they think that's possible in the first place). And despite any evidence, religion -wants- to keep believing this, it's important for them to keep believing this, for some reason.
That is not a historical fact at all. There are different variations out there but you can find (maybe not see the exact parchment) but find the Greek and Hebrew texts and form your interpretations by studying the languages. Just like some versions are closer to the original text than others.
lostsupper
Banned
Drop it like a sack of bricks, OP. Spend your Sunday mornings doing something more productive.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
I did indeed, thats a good post. I agree with it.
Thatonemoor
Member
Neogaf isn't really the place to have this kind of discussion. Have you tried talking about it to a psychiatrist? I know there is a stigma about it but they really help you with your problems in my opinion.
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