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Game Criticism for what a game IS, instead of what it is NOT

I've noticed the phrases "I thought it would look better" or " I thought it would be this/that/different" appearing recently. I don't know what that is supposed to mean? Your mind can create better visuals and better developed games than reality?
 

Deepo

Member
This is something I'm trying to apply to my own thinking when playing a game. It's made me appreciate a lot of games way more.
 
SonyToo!™;130422242 said:
That's why they'll never be a 10/10 Sonic, everybody has their own idea of what a Sonic should be rather than what version they're playing.

This. It's gotten so bad that Sega sticks 2D & 3D segments in pretty much every Sonic game these days in an attempt to appeal to everyone, rather than just pick one style and try to really excel at it.
 

jg4xchamp

Member
Games that are similarly designed is welcomed in discussion. It's when you bring apples to an orange fair that things get stupid.

True, but I think there is a way to all that stuff. Sometimes the apples to apples comparison is a poor way to go, because sometimes that creates scenarios where you aren't even letting the game attempt to be an orange. Other times it can be this orange does this one thing better than apple (juice, for instance, because OJ>AJ, come at me GAF), so to me it's always about context and justification.

In the scenario I was presenting I was essentially leading to the idea that if Destiny is literally what Diablo is, and you can't tell me there is one thing about Diablo that it does better to change things up, then all you're telling me is to avoid Diablo as well, and frankly I would feel justified in having a criticism against that genre. You know under a blank assumption that all apples are created equal, which I think is silly.

Another thing I would want to touch on, I think a lot of critical issues when it comes to writing, beyond just how poor the writing is (and for the record, well aware I have raped the english language in both my posts), but just how lazy the criticisms usually are. Too often there are just blanket statements that are treated as a pejorative such as shooting gallery.

Now a shooting gallery segment isn't inherently bad, it can be a tense sequence when used sparingly. Kind of like what jump scares are, the actual act isn't inherently a bad thing. It's when all the game has is a jump scare or shooting gallery segments that it becomes one note and boring. And I think sometimes writers fail to justify that to their reader, because they are against detailing a review because of some mantra about "less is more", when sometimes less is just less.

Put it another way, sometimes I feel like the written review barely gives me an idea of why the reviewer disliked this in this one game, but this comparable game did something similar and he was all cool with it. But then here them in a podcast, and he/she explains it in more detail on what the major difference is, and I go OH, well why didn't you just say that? ;p
 
SonyToo!™;130422242 said:
That's why they'll never be a 10/10 Sonic, everybody has their own idea of what a Sonic should be rather than what version they're playing.

Nah, it really is that the game mechanics and level design have been consistently poorly implemented since the leap from the original 2D titles. Even the 2D games could be pretty spotty, but at least the core was consistent (particularly after Sonic 2). Now you literally have no idea what you're going to get. It's a real mess.
 
This thread brings to mind this comic:

215551004_FfCPk-L-2.jpg


That Penny Arcade made this comic to complain about Enchanted Arms (a thoroughly mediocre game) getting a mediocre review score just makes it funnier.
 

Imouto

Banned
If a game's competitors are bringing more to the table with branching paths, more choice and therefore, more re playability (under most circumstances), is it unfair of me to criticize the game for being relatively more confined?

Yes, a game can argue for having a more focused, more powerful narrative if it's more linear.

All I'm saying is, I think it's a bit dangerous to invalidate criticisms based on semi-arbitrary limitations derived from developer intentions.


"Game X is Y. Unfair to dock it points because it doesn't do Z."

"But its competition is doing Z and it's a better game for it."

What then?

I think it's every game's responsibility to do more for its genre and for gaming as a whole. Games that shatter genre or categorical conventions are often some of the greatest games of all. And then, it becomes totally natural and fair to compare it to its competition, and slightly devalue one or the other for not taking as great a stride. I'd agree that it would be a mistake to call any game 'bad' by this metric. But it's fair to call it out for either being safe or missing potential, I think.

The point is, I think, people should try to find the good part of what it's doing first before jumping in and criticize it for what it's not doing. By understand what's good about it, people will less likely find what's lacking is the necessity. There is always a chance (and a big one, that is) that if it has what it was lacking, we may not get what make it good right now. Not every studio has a budget to expand every aspect of their games, and some are only good at a certain things. Demanding should always come after a second thought if it's achievable or not in their current stage.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I agree to an extent. I think some of the examples of unfair criticism in the OP might stem from genre confusion and inadequate naming conventions of genres. People might compare God of War to Batman Arkham Asylum just because they're both "Action" games, but really their core goals and focuses are fundamentally different.

At the same time, I'm wary of saying that those criticisms have no place in a review or as general impressions. In more ambiguous examples, it may sometimes be difficult to confirm whether the developers simply fail to properly execute a facet of their game, or if that facet was simply not a core goal to begin with. And even if it's not a core goal, is it then just an excusable omission? Perhaps that facet should be weighted differently, and writing/impressions should reflect that appropriately, but it's still probably an observation worth noting... especially if there's reason to believe that the omission weakens the game within context of its goals.

And furthermore, games don't exist in an isolated bubble. I do think that games should be held to a standard, and those of a series should be evaluated within the context of the series. It only makes sense, especially since there will be certain expectations associated with carrying a name brand. This doesn't mean that changes can't happen. They should. But the value of those changes should be part of the evaluation.
 

Vagabundo

Member
Yup I agree. Too many game reviews are just personal impressions of the reviewer. I was just giving out about ZombiU's 4.5 from gamespot as an example of poor use of the scoring system.
 
I'm trying to take this thread seriously but with no specific examples of reviews that do this, I can't. Like , I can see how you might interpret it that way but in what context. I remember the recent(couple years) backlash against long games, where nobody was seemingly allowed to criticize a game for being too short. 'Its not supposed to be a 40 hour game, 6 hours is fine, I don't have time for more than that, Anythjng longer is just filler' etc etc which I thought was insane. As if longer are inherently inferior. As if playing 2 ten hour games is somehow a better use of your limited Time than 1 20 hour game. Can I get some specific examples here from specific reviews so I can have something to base my opinion on?
 

Draconian

Member
SonyToo!™;130422242 said:
That's why they'll never be a 10/10 Sonic, everybody has their own idea of what a Sonic should be rather than what version they're playing.

Haha. Are you sure you're not talking about Zelda here?
 
This is a tricky one. I'm of the mind that there are too many big-budget, purportedly story-focused games where the chief gameplay mechanic involves mass murder.

When games do this, I feel compelled to criticize them for it even if they executed perfectly on their vision. I may be precisely the problem you're mentioning.
 
I'm trying to take this thread seriously but with no specific examples of reviews that do this, I can't.

Here's a good example (for one of my favorite games). From IGN's review of Wild Arms XF which they gave a 5.8/10 score to:

A startling number of the battles in XF are objective-based and require very specific, very unforgiving methods of approach. This issue is easily my greatest problem with the game as a whole, because battles became a matter of extreme trial-and-error. If you don't have the exact classes for the task at hand, you'll usually fail and that means a lot of wasted time. The immense joy of strategy RPGs for me comes from delving into each and every class and exploring how best to use them, outfitting your party with the right members to provide the maximum reward. But XF essentially demands that you approach things a certain way, making a typically creative gameplay type into a linear one.

And while the game attempts to give you control by allowing your characters to switch class at any time (assuming you're not currently in a battle), the resulting gameplay just feels aggravating. When I originally played Final Fantasy Tactics, I would switch classes from time to time, but a great deal of fun came from mastering a class and relying on that one character for very specific purposes. But in XF you have to switch most of your classes for every battle and it makes the game feel like class has no permanence or weight.

Here, he's essentially complaining that a Strategy/RPG wants you to change up your tactics sometimes. "Battles became a matter of extreme trial-and-error" could be a valid complaint except the game lets you analyze each battle & area before locking in your party so you're supposed to adjust your party & classes to match the challenge. In short, he's complaining that he can't just stick with his favorite classes the entire time & steamroll the game.

Also, it's worth pointing out that Wild Arms XF's class system is specifically designed to match its style of gameplay. Unlike most class-style games (like FFT), when you switch to a class in Wild Arms XF, you gain just about all of the features of that class immediately. For the most part, leveling up an individual class is so that you can multi-class and use its abilities on another class, rather than powering up that class. Therefore, if you run into a scenario where say a Fantastica or an Excavator would be really useful, you don't have to worry that you haven't used that class before now and instead can just change a character or two to that class.
 
If a game's competitors are bringing more to the table with branching paths, more choice and therefore, more re playability (under most circumstances), is it unfair of me to criticize the game for being relatively more confined?

Yes, a game can argue for having a more focused, more powerful narrative if it's more linear.

All I'm saying is, I think it's a bit dangerous to invalidate criticisms based on semi-arbitrary limitations derived from developer intentions.


"Game X is Y. Unfair to dock it points because it doesn't do Z."

"But its competition is doing Z and it's a better game for it."

What then?

I think it's every game's responsibility to do more for its genre and for gaming as a whole. Games that shatter genre or categorical conventions are often some of the greatest games of all. And then, it becomes totally natural and fair to compare it to its competition, and slightly devalue one or the other for not taking as great a stride. I'd agree that it would be a mistake to call any game 'bad' by this metric. But it's fair to call it out for either being safe or missing potential, I think.

That implies it results in a better experience, when Arkham City illustrates that's not the case.

Branching paths, etc doesn't mean more replayability. Hell, NSMBU and MK8 are as "linear" as it gets yet infinitely replayable.

"innovation", branching, open-world, etc, etc doesn't mean better. So no, game Y doing Z doesn't mean it will be a better game. To pluck an example out of thin-air, Deus Ex: HR would haven been much more enjoyable and tightly focused if they had jibbed the "open-world hub" bullshit. It was tedious and tiresome navigating the hub from mission to mission.
 
Sometkmes you don't like what it is conceptually compared ton other products. Games aren't made in a vacuum.

Like when people try to brush off criticisms of Destiny's 15 minute bullet sponge borefests with "hey its a MMO they're suppose to be boring bullet sponges"

Like, OK? Is that supposed to make me like it?
 

Dahbomb

Member
LMAO @ this:

World War Z has a great story. A lot of people talk in it and things keep happening, which makes it cinematic. There are also a lot of impressive explosions, which make the movie even more cinematic. This is some next-gen stuff. You can clearly see everyone's facial expressions and everyone's face has a lot of detail so that makes the movie good.There is a lot of shooting, and a lot of people get killed. It's very satisfying. Some people have been complaining about the level of violence as of late (I call them entitled whiners) but what else is going to be in a movie?
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
I'd argue that a lot of parts of the first legend of zelda are horribly dated and that the series has improved to some extent by adding a bit more linearity compared to the original

Many, such as myself, would also argue the exact opposite in that the franchise has devolved to patronizing 'obvious' solutions to simple obstacles for the sake of pacing and more egregious narrative prose. It's the difference between actively participating in discovery and sussing out an unknown environment and passively being spoonfed a manufactured adventure with a lacking sense of any real engagement.
 
Sometkmes you don't like what it is conceptually compared ton other products. Games aren't made in a vacuum.

Like when people try to brush off criticisms of Destiny's 15 minute bullet sponge borefests with "hey its a MMO they're suppose to be boring bullet sponges"

Like, OK? Is that supposed to make me like it?

This
 

Amir0x

Banned
Sometkmes you don't like what it is conceptually compared ton other products. Games aren't made in a vacuum.

Like when people try to brush off criticisms of Destiny's 15 minute bullet sponge borefests with "hey its a MMO they're suppose to be boring bullet sponges"

Like, OK? Is that supposed to make me like it?

This is a separate distinct issue. You're saying you have a problem with Destiny's goals itself. If you have a problem like that, you can use your critique to explain why you feel Destiny's execution of goals lead to unfun gameplay, in your experience. That's not quite the same as having a problem with analyzing the game for what it is, instead of what it is not. Here you're criticizing the game for what it is. You're not saying "well I wish Destiny was a single player action adventure game" (extreme example, but you know what I mean), you're saying you don't appreciate the execution of its goals.

There's MMOs that don't require bullet sponges, for example. It's not a prerequisite.

In short, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing is at odds with my position.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
This is entirely based on expectations. If they are being apparent about what their goal is, what the intent is, what the focus is, and that is accurately reflected in the game, then yeah, you're able to focus criticism on what's there and not so much on what is missing etc. However some developers overpromise, or sometimes outright lie and misrepresent a game and the possibilities. Suddenly the expectation is different and now you're playing a different game than you were promised.

It's a nice ideal that you're presenting but it too easily can be used to invalidate actual criticism. You can go "Well that's not what they intended anyway" to just about any negative reaction. Sometimes it's about convenience, sometimes it's about flow, sometimes it just clearly is missing something.
 

peakish

Member
Unfortunately, there's no clear line between what a game "is not doing" and how a game isn't "successful in the goals it sets for itself." Tomayto, tomahto.

A good review should be honest in its account of the writer's experience and reaction to a game. If that includes what "feels missing" or how it "falls short," then that's a totally valid response and worth writing about. As with anything, good judgment is a writer's best guide. If all a writer does is blast a game for no good reason other than to sound "smarter than the game," then that's a problem. But that's more an issue of explaining oneself than it is of being too negative.
It's a tricky problem. I definitely think that it's fair (or even necessary) to examine games from different perspectives, as long as you come at it with an open mind or make your intent clear. While not a review, the recent TIME article written by a war photographer spending some time with The Last of Us' photomode was one of the most interesting ones I've read this year and that writer definitely didn't try to put it in context with what Naughty Dog was trying to do.

A more personal example to me is Child of Light, whose developers clearly were aiming at making a cute and short jrpg. Playing the game I never got around how quick the pacing was and would have liked them to give me a bit more space to develop tactics, characters and the world rather than constantly pushing towards the next objective. That obviously isn't the developers intent, but I think that discussing it and other games from such and other angles sometimes is more interesting than not to.

Not to say that it's good to play a football team manager and judge it from the perspective of FIFA, but I think that's more writing a bad review than anything else. Critique should be insightful and possibly aim to push the medium forward.
 
Tales of Vesperia isn't Skyrim, but they both have graphics, animations and sound. They both try to tell a narrative, and have characters with dialogue and (voice acting?). They are both RPG's so they both have a stat system/level up system. I really don't see what the problem is when comparing the two games.

On the other hand, if a game is meant to achieve a certain type of retro look - like say Megaman 9 - I'm not going to compare that to Mighty No. 9 and say "well, really, we've moved on from NES games. That's a big flaw Megaman 9 has!"

Why not? If the graphics aren't good then they're not good. It was a design decision to use that graphical style and that should be part of the review. If the design decision is for a game to be boring in order to simulate the life of a data entry assistant in an office, are you really implying that one can't criticise the game for being boring?
 

EGM1966

Member
One if the fundamentals of analytic criticism is to focus on how well the objectives of the work have been achieved desperate from your own preferences in terms of what you prefer. This means first determining what the work is and what it's trying to achieve then assessing who we'll it does so.

So yes I agree.

Most people though are simply offering base opinions vs analytic critiscm so the issue is sure to persist.
 
I think we should mail this out to games media stat.

OP makes valid points. I think there is still value, however, in, not questioning why a game is a track racer or a JRPG, but asking whether or not a different format might be better suited to the assumed goals of a game.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Tales of Vesperia isn't Skyrim, but they both have graphics, animations and sound. They both try to tell a narrative, and have characters with dialogue and (voice acting?). They are both RPG's so they both have a stat system/level up system. I really don't see what the problem is when comparing the two games.

If you pare down anything to its most simplistic core, anything can be compared. You can compare how they deal with stats, but it wouldn't even make sense - Skyrim's stat system is designed to deal with the problems of its unique game design, and Vesperia is designed to deal with the necessary elements of its title. Same goes for the narrative, dialogue, and all that "broad strokes" comparison. Yes, they both have narratives and dialogue (so does almost everything ever?), but they do not have similar goals in their approach to narrative and dialogue. They are, in fact, different at the most fundamental of levels. You can say you don't like cheerful, japanese-influenced narratives, and that's fine. But that's not actually telling anyone the game did something bad with its approach to narratives. It's just saying you don't like that sort of thing.

Why not? If the graphics aren't good then they're not good. It was a design decision to use that graphical style and that should be part of the review. If the design decision is for a game to be boring in order to simulate the life of a data entry assistant in an office, are you really implying that one can't criticise the game for being boring?

It's an artistic direction that was intentionally chosen to emulate the NES style. The goal therefore should be to consider how successful it was in emulating that NES style. You can say you don't like the NES style in any form, but that's not telling your audience something valuable. That's just sharing you don't like NES style games. Your audience doesn't actually gain something from that.

It's a similar thing with, say, movies with certain aesthetic styles or books with certain narrative styles. You may in fact hate those types of narrative styles or those aesthetic choices. That's fine. But that doesn't actually tell the reader anything about how they went wrong in following that aesthetic choice. So you tell the audience that Megaman 9 is an ugly game because it looks like an NES title. Congratulations, you've just informed your audience that the game looks exactly as intended, as a retro love letter to Megaman NES titles.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Amir0x I just want to commend you for writing the entire OP without mentioning Destiny once.

I didn't think it necessary. Destiny is getting tons of legit criticism from all corners, didn't seem like a major example of this sort of problem.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I give DmC a hard time for what it IS

Crap

:)

haha. I want to comment on Dahbomb's joking statement, though. DmC comparisons to DMC is a perfect example of the right sort of comparison. They're both games with remarkably similar goals, as delivery systems for relatively complex action combat systems. And they both share many elements, being relatives of one another. So yeah ;)
 
Why not? If the graphics aren't good then they're not good. It was a design decision to use that graphical style and that should be part of the review.

Sure, but NES-style graphics don't equal bad graphics. They can equal bad graphics if they're done poorly, but well done NES-style graphics can look good even now.
 
Eh, I'm fine with comparative criticism as long as it's not a crutch. If a reviewers ONLY method of describing a game is just "it's like a worse version of X" then it's not a good review. If they say "it's like a worse version of X because it is worse at doing A, B, and C" then I'm OK with it.

It gives me a baseline to conceptualize what a game is without playing it. I have played Assassin's Creed and Arkham Asylum, so if a review says a game has Assassin's Creed style traversal with Batman style combat I now have an idea of how it plays. If they also add that it is slightly clunkier at doing both of those things than AC or AA, then I know that I probably wont enjoy playing those aspects of the games as much as the comparison games. This doesn't mean there aren't other aspects of the game that make it greater than its whole, but it does give me a way of quickly and easily understanding how the reviewer feels about how the game plays.

Comparing two things that are pretty wildly different from each other is definitely not a great thing though. "This linear JRPG doesn't have very enjoyable exploration compared to this open world WRPG."
 
You can compare how they deal with stats, but it wouldn't even make sense - Skyrim's stat system is designed to deal with the problems of its unique game design, and Vesperia is designed to deal with the necessary elements of its title.

So you can compare how successful each of them were at dealing with their gameplay and whether features from one could've been used by another.

They are, in fact, different at the most fundamental of levels. You can say you don't like cheerful, japanese-influenced narratives, and that's fine. But that's not actually telling anyone the game did something bad with its approach to narratives. It's just saying you don't like that sort of thing.

So how is someone EVER supposed to criticise stories in media? If cheerful, japanese-influenced narratives are shit then what? Who cares if they are trying to aim for shit if it is shit?
It's an artistic direction that was intentionally chosen to emulate the NES style. The goal therefore should be to consider how successful it was in emulating that NES style. You can say you don't like the NES style in any form, but that's not telling your audience something valuable. That's just sharing you don't like NES style games. Your audience doesn't actually gain something from that.

Saying "The NES style is outdated and lacks modern features that the game could have benefited from like proper animations and graphical effects. Looking at Mighty No. 9 just emphasises how good this type of game looks in a more modern style" tells people nothing?
 
It's an artistic direction that was intentionally chosen to emulate the NES style. The goal therefore should be to consider how successful it was in emulating that NES style. You can say you don't like the NES style in any form, but that's not telling your audience something valuable. That's just sharing you don't like NES style games. Your audience doesn't actually gain something from that.

It's a similar thing with, say, movies with certain aesthetic styles or books with certain narrative styles. You may in fact hate those types of narrative styles or those aesthetic choices. That's fine. But that doesn't actually tell the reader anything about how they went wrong in following that aesthetic choice. So you tell the audience that Megaman 9 is an ugly game because it looks like an NES title. Congratulations, you've just informed your audience that the game looks exactly as intended, as a retro love letter to Megaman NES titles.

What about a criticism that says, "the gritty brown and grey palatte does little to distinguish this FPS from all the others in its genre"?
 

Amir0x

Banned
Eh, I'm fine with comparative criticism as long as it's not a crutch. If a reviewers ONLY method of describing a game is just "it's like a worse version of X" then it's not a good review. If they say "it's like a worse version of X because it is worse at doing A, B, and C" then I'm OK with it.

My OP is not against comparative criticism at all. It even mentions the types of comparisons that make sense versus those that don't :)
 

Steroyd

Member
You should practice what you preach and stop giving DmC such a hard time because it's not like DMC!

I think it's fair to adhere a franchise to other series in that franchise, I also think we should look at what games with said mechanics of said game can do as well or even better in genre's similar to it (for example God of War's combat mechanics vs Bayonetta combat mechanics).

However if I'm reading the OP right, I shouldn't be pissing all over Uncharted's stealth machanics Because it's not like Splinter Cell or Metal Gear Solid because Uncharted is not a stealth game, however what should be fair is me bitching about Uncharted's stealth system being broken, with everyone having a GPS tracker on my ass when I am spotted wether I'm in their line of sight or not.
 
Wow that's actually something I've thought about before but you've phrased it much better than I could have.

I don't think there is any easy way to reconcile things like that when it comes to game criticism because it tends to be such a personal view.

I personally do not think its fair to speak ill against a game for what it chooses not to be. For instance CoD vs. Battlefield. I don't think its fair criticism to to jump all over CoD for not having vehicles being a large part of its MP combat like they are in Battlefield. Sure both games are a part of the exact same genre and compete against each other, but the expriences are designed from completely different perpectives.

The problem comes when one person prefers the BF vehicle combats and rates CoD badly for that when that was something CoD was never aiming for in the first place.
 

Amir0x

Banned
So you can compare how successful each of them were at dealing with their gameplay and whether features from one could've been used by another.

You can compare how successful each of them were at dealing with their gameplay, but it makes no sense - and has little value to your audience - to suggest that Vesperia should have been a game like Skyrim. The audience that is likely to be interested in Vesperia wants it for the elements that make it distinct from such a title, which is why it aimed at entirely different goals. Some of those elements include things like a classic world map system, classic jRPG-style towns, traditional hand designed dungeons. Telling the audience that Skyrim made a mistake by not having anime-style characters, for example, is not at all particularly constructive.

So how is someone EVER supposed to criticise stories in media? If cheerful, japanese-influenced narratives are shit then what? Who cares if they are trying to aim for shit if it is shit?

There are very, very few cases when it's possible to say every single thing in an art style or narrative style is complete shit, and if you approach a game whose goals is to deliver a "cheerful, Japanese-influenced narrative" and say "sorry all those types of games are trash", you're immediately starting from a position from which no one can take your analysis on the subject seriously. You shouldn't have been reviewing a game which was so diametrically opposed to your preferences then. Remember, it is different to not like something preferentially than it is to not like something because it executes its various components poorly.

The way you criticize it is by approaching if it is successful at delivering on its narrative goals. For example, were the characters well fleshed out? Did they have interactions that made sense within the greater context of the world? Are there major plotholes? Does the story lack subtlety? How about the antagonists, were they painted well?

If you just close the door from the start and say "sorry, as soon as you start making cheerful traditional jRPGs that means you suck", it's just not very valuable to anyone BUT yourself. And that's fine. But it's not good criticism.

Saying "The NES style is outdated and lacks modern features that the game could have benefited from like proper animations and graphical effects. Looking at Mighty No. 9 just emphasises how good this type of game looks in a more modern style" tells people nothing?

Yes, it tells people nothing. Because Megaman 9 art direction is designed to be a love letter to retro NES Megaman titles and if that was its goal and it looked like Mighty No. 9 it would be a failure.

Put another way, what a comment like this tells people is that you believe it's not somehow appropriate to ever have games which have retro-inspired styles, because you simply don't enjoy that. How is that valuable to your audience?
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
That's been my problem with discussion recently. Just going with Destiny. Some of the complaints I've seen and heard are related to what it's not: it's not Halo. It's not Borderlands. It's not game X. It's Destiny. Point out the flaws with Destiny, not that it didn't clone a game you like.

Driveclub is now getting this treatment. It's not open-world, and I don't recall it being called open-world. But being linear is now bad for every racing game? C'mon.

I agree with you on Driveclub, but not on Destiny.

And that's because while Driveclub official information has been very accurate for what it appears the game will be, it is not the case for Destiny. Exploration and huge expansive universe, social experience and loot were some of the most used terms to describe the game. So it is fair to see whether the game measured up to those promises. Open world was never mentioned about Driveclub, so it's not an appropriate measuring stick.

But I agree that a game should be judged on its merits, as long as those merits encompass the promises made about that game.
 
With games, much like with books and films, an enormous part of how I approach them critically is attempting to understand first what the developers intended and they appraising how they executed on that intention.

This is much better than how I would have worded it. It seems like this happens when developers start to become known for making certain IPs that turn into a franchise, and because of that when they release something completely new, consumers immediately want to compare the new IP with what the developer normally releases. It's like when you play a series that has the same game mechanics and then the next game they release, they change up how you execute that mechanic and everyone goes nuts over it. Its like calling Bloodbourne another Souls game but from what I have seen it's radically different and the pace in which you attack doesn't even come close. Or its like saying AC3 was the worst out of all ACs because the developers wanted to put you in a completely different environment and strategize how you take out groups of enemies. Don't think a game will be good just because everyone else says it will. Make sure it's what you want and will enjoy playing long after everyone else has.
 

peakish

Member
It's an artistic direction that was intentionally chosen to emulate the NES style. The goal therefore should be to consider how successful it was in emulating that NES style. You can say you don't like the NES style in any form, but that's not telling your audience something valuable. That's just sharing you don't like NES style games. Your audience doesn't actually gain something from that.

It's a similar thing with, say, movies with certain aesthetic styles or books with certain narrative styles. You may in fact hate those types of narrative styles or those aesthetic choices. That's fine. But that doesn't actually tell the reader anything about how they went wrong in following that aesthetic choice. So you tell the audience that Megaman 9 is an ugly game because it looks like an NES title. Congratulations, you've just informed your audience that the game looks exactly as intended, as a retro love letter to Megaman NES titles.
Regarding graphic styles I think that it's important to consider what the style actually brings to the game. For Mega Man 9 the intent of the entire game was to look and play like a the NES games and the graphics follow naturally from that, reinforcing the aspect, playing on nostalgia and suiting the game play fine which presumably made the game better as a whole.

If on the other hand some developer makes a game looking like Ocarina of Time, mixing the awkward early days of 3D with background sprites for whatever reason, I'll definitely ask the question of how it works with and actually improves the game regardless of if it's exactly how the developer intended it. Just as cinematography is often judged for how it complements a movie.
 
Personally, I feel like most video game reviews put too much emphasis on technical issues rather than the experience the game is trying to deliver. They try to dissect and break down each aspect of the software like a wine critic trying to analyze all of the notes in a glass of Merlot. "The frame rate dropped a couple of times, the baked lighting in world 4 is disappointing, mechanic X was fun but underutilized and undermines game balance".

Most gamers don't care about any of that shit. A critic that reviews games that way with their monocle and brandy snifter is not helpful to most consumers/gamers. A lot of games are just trying to be fun, visually appealing, and entertaining and deliver on those levels. That is what the game IS and how it should be reviewed, IMO.

For example, I had an amazing time playing Super Mario 3D World and felt that it brilliantly delivered on what it was intended to do. Yet, I've heard some critics/fun police call it "garbage" or "deeply disappointing" because of it's cube-based geometry or some other Computer Graphics 101 screed.

TLDR: If a game is supposed to be a technical showcase, then it's OK to review it as such. But that kind of review/analysis is not appropriate for many/most games that are trying to deliver something different.
 

GreenLiquid

Neo Member
I think the most fundamental problem with games criticism that hones in on what a game isn't -- that focuses on what a game should be -- isn't that it's inherently bad to write that kind of criticism. I think the bigger issue is really a lack of self-awareness among reviewers who write in this way. As others here have pointed out, a common and intellectually valueless trend in games reviewing is to point out some obvious factual point about the game in question -- say, that it's linear -- and then call it bad for that reason, which in effect is just the reviewer sharing that he or she doesn't care for linear games. The reviewer is free to express his or her opinion, and there are plenty of times when simply offering up a basic impression of something is a good idea, but it feels to me that most of the time it comes down to a lack of self-awareness because a review is being ostensibly presented as intended to accomplish one goal, while its content suggests an entirely different one.

This is what I think the parody review that WillyFive linked earlier is getting at. It emulates a review posted by a major games website like IGN. A review like that one, that does not analyze the plot in major detail (presumably to avoid spoilers), that is presented to a broad audience, and that gives a numeric score to indicate the quality of the subject is presumably intended to give its readers an idea of whether or not they'd enjoy a game before buying it. Yet the writing and content of the review don't really aim at this goal at all: we instead have the reviewer reading off a wish list of preferences and sighing with noted disappointment whenever some fact about the subject of the review doesn't live up to his or her wishes. Consequently, the review can only achieve its apparent goal of informing potential customers if the reader can be reasonably confident that his or her preferences align well with the reviewer's, which just serves to cut down the portion of the audience that may stand to benefit from the review. Could it have been done better? Sure. The writer could have considered what the audience already knows about the subject and think of a few categories of readers -- say, fans along genre lines -- and then consider the game from their perspectives and write about what they, the readers, might find interesting or disappointing about the subject. The thing is, this requires a degree of self-awareness in the reviewer about what exactly he or she is setting out to accomplish while writing. I notice sometimes that I enter into writing about something with the perception that I basically understand something and that I need to express it in a way that other people will understand, too. I suspect it's a common feeling to come into a discussion feeling that you've got it figured out and that you just need to "tell it like it is" to whatever audience is present. Maybe that's just something that people generally have to improve on when writing critically.

I do want to offer another perspective on comparative criticism, though. Some have expressed that it's either inherently incorrect or invalid to pan something because it's not something that's inherently different -- e.g., this JRPG isn't good because it doesn't have an open world like many western RPGs. I don't think it's quite this simple. For one thing, when a limit is imposed on the types of criticism that are valid, whether as a rule-of-thumb or a hard limit, some type of arguably valid criticism is removed from the space of valid critical arguments. This is where coming at things from a perfectly technically critical mindset, where a work has to be evaluated on the basis of how well it achieves what it sets out to accomplish, can fall flat. If we only consider games from that basis, we lose the ability to ask (in my opinion completely valid) questions such as "Is it a good thing that this game sets out to accomplish x?" For instance, in the example about the difference in world structure between JRPGs and WRPGs, I think it's a completely legitimate question to ask what end developers are trying to achieve by including open worlds and if that's really a valuable thing. If I thought that the goal was creating a more believable world, for instance, I might go on to ask if making a more believable world is a good priority for that kind of game -- and it almost certainly is, but that's just an example of the kinds of questions that lie outside the space of talking about a game solely on its success in doing what it set out to do.

There's also one other thing that got me thinking:

It's a similar thing with, say, movies with certain aesthetic styles or books with certain narrative styles. You may in fact hate those types of narrative styles or those aesthetic choices. That's fine. But that doesn't actually tell the reader anything about how they went wrong in following that aesthetic choice. So you tell the audience that Megaman 9 is an ugly game because it looks like an NES title. Congratulations, you've just informed your audience that the game looks exactly as intended, as a retro love letter to Megaman NES titles.

I agree with this point: saying that Mega Man 9's NES stylings are bad really just tells the reader that a) Mega Man 9 is visually designed to resemble the old NES games, which he probably doesn't need you to tell him, and that b) you don't "like" those graphics for whatever reason. That's perfectly fine, but one of the places where I think games criticism these days falls short is on accepting parts of a game, especially things outside of core gameplay like graphics and music, on the basis of simply whether they are aesthetically pleasing to the reviewer or to the reviewer's audience, rather than whether they serve some purpose besides that. I am of the opinion that a lot of games criticism doesn't live up to its potential and stops short of really meaningful analysis because it is content to give a passing grade to graphics and music and dialogue if they're simply "nice." How many times has a review said something like "the graphics are pleasant to look at and well-drawn and they didn't distract me so the game has good graphics"? I don't think it's impressive for a game to have nice-looking graphics. Relatively low-art-budget mobile games like King's and Rovio's hits look perfectly nice and have arguably appealing art. Instead, I think good analysis should ask how or whether the style of the visuals and the way they are used contributes to the game in a holistic way, whether that be to the tone or the accessibility or the player's ability to react quickly or whatever else. To give a little shameless plug to one of my favorite critics, Matthewmatosis does a great job of this. Many reviewers looking at Skyward Sword's art would be content to say "it's colorful, it looks nice, it didn't distract me, it was good!" A few might rise above that and point out the visuals' Impressionist roots, and might say "the visuals are Impressionistic and they do a good job of emulating that style, so the visuals are good." But to me, a level of analysis actually worth aspiring to is to take all of the above and ask whether or not an Impressionistic style lends itself to the game's narrative themes or tone or general identity as a Legend of Zelda game and, if so, how.

So, to get back to the idea of whether analyzing games based on what they are rather than what they are not is a good rule to follow, I think it can be, and it all comes down to the self-awareness of the reviewer and the the reviewer's understanding of his or her own undertaking. If, in the reviewer's opinion, the game falls flat, then almost by definition it has be because of something the game isn't, because there would presumably be something that, if the game were, the game would not fall flat. For reviewers who have trouble seeing why they're writing, it can be a good rule-of-thumb to keep them on a relatively "objective" track. But for reviewers who have a good understanding of their purposes, I don't think it's a necessary or particularly useful limitation to humor.

Also, let me know if I misinterpreted you at all because I think I went on a serious tangent there D:
 

petran79

Banned
It's an artistic direction that was intentionally chosen to emulate the NES style. The goal therefore should be to consider how successful it was in emulating that NES style. You can say you don't like the NES style in any form, but that's not telling your audience something valuable. That's just sharing you don't like NES style games. Your audience doesn't actually gain something from that.

It's a similar thing with, say, movies with certain aesthetic styles or books with certain narrative styles. You may in fact hate those types of narrative styles or those aesthetic choices. That's fine. But that doesn't actually tell the reader anything about how they went wrong in following that aesthetic choice. So you tell the audience that Megaman 9 is an ugly game because it looks like an NES title. Congratulations, you've just informed your audience that the game looks exactly as intended, as a retro love letter to Megaman NES titles.


A lot of movies and video games that were regarded, some times mistakenly, for adults back then, are today regarded for kids. In a derogatory manner both for the media and for the younger audience. Eg most pixel based games of the 80s or movies using animatronics or stop-motion puppets. Even 1920s B/W mute horror movies. The awe one would feel back then for such media would today be substituted with disdain because it is regarded as kid's fare. One main reason Nintendo failed really to win audiences the same way as Sony or Microsoft. Unfortunately Nintendo after a certain point made the same mistake as Disney, in associating a genre with a specific group worldwide.

But just like with books and movies, video games began to detach themselves from marketing trends and now follow their own style. The fact that university projects and experimental games are available, demonstrates the huge change that took place within the last decade.

Just like in comis, graphic novels, animation, film, literature etc not all are wary of the new trends. But the important thing is that now they exist and can be debated
 
That's been my problem with discussion recently. Just going with Destiny. Some of the complaints I've seen and heard are related to what it's not: it's not Halo. It's not Borderlands. It's not game X. It's Destiny. Point out the flaws with Destiny, not that it didn't clone a game you like.

Driveclub is now getting this treatment. It's not open-world, and I don't recall it being called open-world. But being linear is now bad for every racing game? C'mon.

I've definitely heard Destiny compared to these other game, and I agree that there's a problem with just making comparing one game to another and not explaining why one doesn't work where the other does. That said, I've only read Giant Bomb's review on the game, and in that, Jeff Gerstmann touches on the why the story and loot elements fall short, even if he will actually name the games he's comparing it to in other venues.

Having just reached level 20 as my hunter last night, I would say I would say that comparing Destiny to Halo and Borderlands or even Diablo makes sense with regard to individuals aspects or systems. It's not that people are saying Destiny should be these other games; it's that Destiny has aspects from these other games and is missing out on what made them work without doing anything else with those particular systems.

Personally, while I definitely feel like Destiny would benefit from leaning more heavily into its story or certain aspects of its loot, I like the game a whole lot because of the pace of its action and the different types of cover found throughout the environment. Even if playing the same missions over means you're fighting the same groups of enemies in the same environments, you can still approach things quite differently by switching weapons or classes. Also, not every enemy is going to behave exactly the same each time, so there's variety there too. But still, I can see how people would need more than that to consider Destiny more than average.
 

Asbear

Banned
I think it's kind of a double edged sword. Obviously I like Skyward Sword for instance but I can't help but compare it to its other Zelda counterparts and then it has a lot of noticable flaws. I really, really liked the game but in hindsight it wasn't even close to being as good as OoT for example. I know that's a high standard to reach but it just kind of sucks to get a new game in a franchise and then it's inferior to the amazing game that came before it.

Kinda like how I hate Uncharted 3 because it was pretty much a retread of things that had been done in UC2, especially the ending scenario and the setpieces didn't impress as much. The story was also overdone. Took itself too seriously whilist having really awkward story -> gameplay segregation. The gameplay pretty much directly contradicted the story it was trying to tell.
 

Scrabble

Member
What bugs me is when a game gets evaluated based on factors not relative to the game:how large the budget was, how many people worked on it, years in development, etc. I see examples of people pointing to destiny, and calling it a worse game solely because of the pedigree of bungie, it's budget, marketing, etc. Those things shouldn't matter when evaluating a game. A small budget little indie game, isn't made better because it was made by two dudes in their basement who sacrificed everything just to get the game out. It's an impressive feat and makes for a great story, but it shouldn't factor into how you evaluate the game.
 
Honestly, I think an ideal review system would have multiple reviewers per game, each with a different outlook on the genre. So maybe 1 who generally doesn't enjoy the genre, one who is more neutral, and a genre fan. that way you can see a more full spectrum of opinions in one place without having to search multiple internet sites. It's really frustrating when someone who seems to just flat out dislike a genre review a game in that genre and criticize it for having staple elements of the genre

I really agree with this. Such publication would really allow a review/comment to have some context. The reviewer should also make sure to explain his like/dislike of a series (ie classic Persona vs SMT divide) at the start.
 

Aiustis

Member
I was talking to someone trying to explain that just because I don't enjoy a game doesn't mean I think it's a bad game. I'm pretty good with looking at things for what they are; I very picky with what games I buy but I'll give just about anything shot just to try how it goes.
 
I really agree with this. Such publication would really allow a review/comment to have some context. The reviewer should also make sure to explain his like/dislike of a series (ie classic Persona vs SMT divide) at the start.

Oh of course. I honestly think all reviews should start with relevant background on the reviewer and their tastes before even going into the review at all. Hell, even if it was just a reviewer profile that's reused it'd be better than what we get. Focusing on the individual reviewer and their tastes is way more useful than only associating a review with the site it's on
 
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