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[mclem]

You definitely aren't the norm, then. I'd try and say more, but you didn't really elaborate on your position in any meaningful way.

I'm a gamer. I play games. I play text adventures, I play Atari 2600 games, I play Spectrum games, I play 360 games, I play Wii games, I play PC games. I have seen a ton of graphics from various eras in various varieties (and none at all in the case of the Infocom stuff).

I can separate the look of a game from the experience of playing a game. Adventure's gameplay was phenomenally complex for the time. ZZT's core gameplay was a little on the dull side but the potential of the level editor and scripting language was fascinating and ingenious. I will stand firmly by the statement that Chaos is still the finest multiplayer game I have ever known. Chaos looks like this:

 

[KageMaru]

And let's not pretend Nintendo fans didn't spring a boner over the Zelda WiiU Tech Demo.

This is one of the reasons why threads like this are humorous.

Makes me wonder how much better Uncharted 2 would have been, if only Naughty dog had used their crash bandicoot engine and instead spend more time on gameplay design.

Oddly enough, I think it would be interesting to see current gen games rendered in dated graphics but with the same sense of scale and resolution of today's game. Kind of a new twist on retro-rendering =p

Just look at the specs of the PCs people have to have to use Dolphin and then realise they also have to configure it for each game and it still isn't perfect. It would take a miracle for the WiiU to have a perfect upscaling process.

I could be wrong but PCs may be a bit different since the people developing the emulator don't have quite the same access to hardware. The 360 was able to emulate and upscale the OG xbox even though it was more powerful than the GC.

It's always been puzzling (and suspect) that they apparently have full emulation of Wii games, but do no upscaling in the process.

Edit:

No. The conclusion is: if the Wii hardware would be on PS3/360 level, Xenoblade would not have been made/wouldn't be as content-rich as it is/HD towns are impossible/yada yada. See example called Final Fantasy XIII. Games like Endless Ocean 1+2 would also not have been made, because too risky/too expensive.

So thank god Nintendo did what they did.

As it's been pointed out before, FFXIII is not the best example when considering S-E's troubling development process.

Let's not pretend that there aren't plenty of quality HD games rich in content.

Also why is it I never read anyone concerned about the content that will apparently be missing from future Wii-U games?

 

[90sRobots]

This was a wonderful bait article. You babblys took the bait.

On to page 21!

 

[Effect]

NM. Miss read what was being asked.

 

[mclem]

What's stopping them from releasing the same thing on PS3 or 360 using the same assets? Hell, we'd probably see it on shelves here in the US when it was actually released. It's not entitlement, it's seeing the forest through the trees.

Let's turn that on its head.

What stopped them from making the game for PS3 or 360 before Nintendo bought them out?

 

[flyinpiranha]

I may be against the grain here, but the segment below is exactly what I've been thinking for a long time.

EDIT: Aside from the last line about leaving the industry.

You're not against the grain. MANY people think this. Every Wii game I play while enjoyable has a constant thought of "this could be so much better".

It's not that the games are bad, but think of what could be with just what MS or Sony put out around the same time?

And I really have to laugh at people taking his statements as really meaning that he'd punch a kitten. I assume this is from people that have never posted a gif of Andy Sandberg when a new screenshot or info is posted.

 

[jorgeton]

This game is a wonder of scale and design. It's a little fug, sure, but it's almost as expansive as an elder's scrolls game. I am in awe they managed to fit all of this on the wii. Could it look better? Sure. But who knows? Maybe the Wii's tech constraints pushed Monolithsoft to really out-do themselves and work around the limitations to craft one of the better game worlds I've played in the past few years.

I take bigger umbrage with the character design and armor. The game is full of some ugly looking armor sets. The characters look like they've all been dumpster diving behind some insane person's version of Target. That, to me, is the most egregious issue. No amount of HD upgrade can fix dem ugly fashions

 

[Zerodoppler]

How can this be a discussion in 2012? There are thousands of games out there and you are, for some reason, obsessive about this one. I don't get it.

 

[Daft_Cat]

I'm a gamer. I play games. I play text adventures, I play Atari 2600 games, I play Spectrum games, I play 360 games, I play Wii games, I play PC games. I have seen a ton of graphics from various eras in various varieties (and none at all in the case of the Infocom stuff).

I can separate the look of a game from the experience of playing a game. Adventure's gameplay was phenomenally complex for the time. ZZT's core gameplay was a little on the dull side but the potential of the level editor and scripting language was fascinating and ingenious. I will stand firmly by the statement that Chaos is still the finest multiplayer game I have ever known. Chaos looks like this:

I understand. It's just that a huge part of Xenoblade's appeal seems to be its art, scope, and world. All three of those would be improved by HD. That's a trueism.

The argument becomes stupid when people decide not to play such a great game because it's on the Wii. It's cool to have hypothetical "what if" arguments like we're all having ITT, but so long as the game's great and the developers set out to accomplish what they aimed at, then I see no reason why the Wii's technical limitations should stop anyone from playing Xenoblade just because it "could have been a bit prettier".

If you want to center it around business, then that's easy. Monolith would have probably never even made Xenoblade if Nintendo hadn't bought them.

 

[90sRobots]

How can this be a discussion in 2012? There are thousands of games out there and you are, for some reason, obsessive about this one. I don't get it.

Ooh, good point! One step closer to another page!

STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS AS A GAMER

 

[WallJump]

I love Chris Kluwe and all but I don't remember any waggle in Xenoblade...

just

Spoiler

lots of jaggies and a sophie's choice of control options

 

[MYE]

I love Chris Kluwe and all but I don't remember any waggle in Xenoblade...

just

Spoiler

lots of jaggies and a sophie's choice of control options

The horridness of "waggle stick" controls transcends titles that use it and bring down every Wii game ever made.
Its there in spirit

 

[radionerd]

I feel like the Xenoblade/Nintendo defenders really missed the point here. The author was kind of ham handed, but Nintendo used to make exciting and powerful new systems. The Wii was underpowered from the start. I want the artists and designers to have the best tools at their disposal to make games and that's what the author is saying too. Unfortunately, Nintendo doesn't seem to be shooting for that market anymore. For a lot of us fans that remember big hardware jumps from Atari 2600's to NES to SNES to N64 to GC and then to Wii, it's frustrating. It's not a crime and they are obviously making tons of money, but that doesn't do much for my bottom line.

 

[SmokedMeat]

It's funny how so many people are jumping on this guy because he felt the game's graphics were being held back by Wii's hardware. He's a graphics whore, but inside I think a lot of us are. Especially considering a lot of the stuff I've read on GAF.

 

[KageMaru]

It's funny how so many people are jumping on this guy because he felt the game's graphics were being held back by Wii's hardware. He's a graphics whore, but inside I think a lot of us are. Especially considering a lot of the stuff I've read on GAF.

Yup, watching people defend the Zelda HD tech demo, and sometimes lifting it up to levels of silliness, are no different than any other graphics whore.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Seems like very few people get why the Wii is such an important platform, and the only reason why a game like Xenoblade Chronicles was made. Or atleast the reason I agree with.

And yes, theoretically it would perhaps be a more enjoyable experience on a HD platform since most humans want pretty things -- but that's besides the point that the existance of Wii let such a game be made.

On a HD console, they might start out with the same vision, but it'd eventually get compromised/changed (Perhaps by a publisher, perhaps by someone on the project, perhaps the natural progression of attitude/mentality of working on a HD project.) cause of the general human desire for better graphics, or focusing on a single, technological aspect.

If you don't believe me, check out a behind the scenes video with developers making a game for Xbox360/PS3, or an interview, or just take a look at the entire video game collection of those 2 platforms.

I'm not saying all the games on PS3/Xbox 360 are bad, just that the industry and public attitude of wanting the greatest graphics in each new game, every time, has definitely compromised gaming somewhat in general.

So, The basic structure of video game development and human nature prevents a game like Xenoblade Chronicles from being made on a HD platform.

I posted a longer post on this earlier but it's quite an interesting subject to discuss, so I thought I'd chime in again.

 

[Zerodoppler]

I feel like the Xenoblade/Nintendo defenders really missed the point here. The author was kind of ham handed, but Nintendo used to make exciting and powerful new systems. The Wii was underpowered from the start. I want the artists and designers to have the best tools at their disposal to make games and that's what the author is saying too. Unfortunately, Nintendo doesn't seem to be shooting for that market anymore. For a lot of us fans that remember big hardware jumps from Atari 2600's to NES to SNES to N64 to GC and then to Wii, it's frustrating. It's not a crime and they are obviously making tons of money, but that doesn't do much for my bottom line.

The Wii is what it is because no one bought the Gamecube. We knew this back in 2006 and people are still goin on and on about it.

 

[VeryGooster]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

 

[Uno Venova]

It's funny how so many people are jumping on this guy because he felt the game's graphics were being held back by Wii's hardware. He's a graphics whore, but inside I think a lot of us are. Especially considering a lot of the stuff I've read on GAF.

*tosses zelda demo gif out of sight*

I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[The Elite]

What a spoiled child.

Graphics have never made a game great.

Problem is that Nintendo makes games too good for their system, but not other companies making pretty games with no depth?

Graphics do play a big part in presentation though and can greatly enhance the story telling experience for a game like Xenoblade. Also, it's not just the graphics that are in question here, it's the treatment of franchises like this on a Nintendo console.

I'm not a huge fan of Xenoblade, but the fact that this wasn't going to be released in NA is ridiculous. The fact that it got a limited Gamestop release is still ridiculous. Nintendo needs to be pushing these kinds of projects on their system. Sure, they can have their casual waggle gamers, but that didn't have to come at the expense of big RPG experiences like this. There was a time when Nintendo would have pushed this as a flagship title for their system. Now it's barely worth releasing in every market for them. Fuck that.

We shall see if they've learned their lesson with the Wii U.

 

[radionerd]

The Wii is what it is because no one bought the Gamecube. We knew this back in 2006 and people are still goin on and on about it.

His point is perfectly valid. A segment of the consumers wants to see Nintendo go bigger with the WiiU. If you don't, or you think the Wii wasn't a disappointment, great. But I'm glad he's saying it, even if he's just pissing in the wind since by all accounts the WiiU is going to be underpowered compared to what Sony and MS are expected to bring to the market. I want these artists to have as many tools at their disposal as possible. Still love Mario Galaxy, Boom Blox, Paper Mario and all the other greats we saw on the Wii but I miss the feeling of firing up a game like Super Metroid or Mario64 and being blown away by all the aspects of the game, not just the game play. Someone said it before, but presentation matters.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Mario Galaxy was excellent. Now imagine what it could have been on PS3. That's all he is saying.


And let's not pretend Nintendo fans didn't spring a boner over the Zelda WiiU Tech Demo.

Yup. Nintendo fans are just as big of whores as the rest of us
I still remember the GameCube Zelda tech demo and all of us Nintendo fans or not splooging our pants over it.

Graphics used to go hand in hand with Nintendo's games. Mario 64, OOT. A big part of those experiences was the presentation and cutting edge hardware that made it possible. None of us can really deny that. Seeing Ganons Castle and the storm above it. Man I gaped at that thing forever.

 

[Rebel Leader]

This was a wonderful bait article. You babblys took the bait.

On to page 21!

When the bait is hickory smoked bacon... OFCOURSE!

*Insert avatar*

I don't know what you're talking about.

I made it better

 

[Rebel Leader]

EDIT: NVM

Used to other forms that when I do another reply it merges with my previous post if no one has posted

 

[jorgeton]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

Hrm, I like the sentiment behind this article and agree with the point of "better graphics = bigger budget", but I never much considered the Wii a bastion for smaller-scale games with big ambitions. I think Xenoblade is the exception to the rule.

Hopefully developers will learn that smart design can overcome graphical shortcomings, especially when it comes to RPGs. I don't think RPG fans play these games to be wowed graphically, it helps, but that's not what a lot of us look for when hunkering down with a 50+ hour behemoth.

 

[Cipherr]

How can this be a discussion in 2012? There are thousands of games out there and you are, for some reason, obsessive about this one. I don't get it.

Xenoblade had the nerve to be one of, if not the best JRPGS's of this generation, apparently thats why "This one".

 

[axisofweevils]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

This!

 

[Rebel Leader]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

"You can keep your prettier graphics -- I want a better game! "

 

[V_Arnold]

limitations inspire creativity

So does tons of other things.

 

[Criminal Upper]

He was saying it was a limitation of developer finances. So my reply was saying why can't they just release it using old assets on ps3 and 360? Oh right, nintendo. Like you said. And the whole point of the article was Nintendo holding them back from their potential.

My brain hurts.

Nintendo owns the deverloper too, so there's not much choice in the matter.

 

[Orca]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

The whole "can't have HD towns" was proven false by Lost Odyssey and FF XIII-2. Their disc space issues were because of a ridiculous over-reliance on FMV to tell the story. Games can't be open world and look good? Did none of the people claiming this play Just Cause 2?

 

[Zerodoppler]

His point is perfectly valid. A segment of the consumers wants to see Nintendo go bigger with the WiiU. If you don't, or you think the Wii wasn't a disappointment, great. But I'm glad he's saying it, even if he's just pissing in the wind since by all accounts the WiiU is going to be underpowered compared to what Sony and MS are expected to bring to the market. I want these artists to have as many tools at their disposal as possible. Still love Mario Galaxy, Boom Blox, Paper Mario and all the other greats we saw on the Wii but I miss the feeling of firing up a game like Super Metroid or Mario64 and being blown away by all the aspects of the game, not just the game play. Someone said it before, but presentation matters.

There are plenty of amazing games on the other consoles that can provide the experiences you're looking for. Why is it important if it says Nintendo on the box or not?

 

[Meier]

As nice as Xenoblade Chronicles looks for a Wii game (particularly one developed a few years ago.. quite an impressive feat), I do hope that the Wii U comes with the capability of upscaling the resolution of Wii games in a manner similar to the Dolphin. I marveled at the visuals due to the art style quite frequently during XC, but I was constantly thinking how much better it would like in actual HD.

I would definitely be inclined to play some older games I've put off due to the poor graphics of the system.

 

[Criminal Upper]

Man, I don't often agree with Sterling, but he hits the nail right on the head. It's exactly what I said a few pages ago, that being on the Wii ultimately made Xenoblade a better game.

 

[Orca]

Man, I don't often agree with Sterling, but he hits the nail right on the head. It's exactly what I said a few pages ago, that being on the Wii ultimately made Xenoblade a better game.

If it had been on the 360 or PS3 we couldn't have used our imaginations to fill in the details!

 

[2+2=5]

Oh look, a graphics whore with a platform:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ronicles-makes-me-want-to-punch-a-kitten.aspx

Clearly a stealth "rise the hype for the wiiu" article.

 

[Pureauthor]

The whole "can't have HD towns" was proven false by Lost Odyssey and FF XIII-2. Their disc space issues were because of a ridiculous over-reliance on FMV to tell the story. Games can't be open world and look good? Did none of the people claiming this play Just Cause 2?

FFXIII-2 isn't a good example. It exists as it does because FFXIII proper left a metric shitton of stuff on the cutting room floor.

Because SE's development processes are shit.

 

[Esura]

Man, I don't often agree with Sterling, but he hits the nail right on the head. It's exactly what I said a few pages ago, that being on the Wii ultimately made Xenoblade a better game.

Wait....what? It had no choice but to be on the Wii. Its console limitation isn't what makes it a better game. Its a good game now regardless of the limitations of the Wii and it could have the potential of being an even better game visually had the Wii been a bit stronger in HD.

 

[Fantastical]

As nice as Xenoblade Chronicles looks for a Wii game (particularly one developed a few years ago.. quite an impressive feat), I do hope that the Wii U comes with the capability of upscaling the resolution of Wii games in a manner similar to the Dolphin. I marveled at the visuals due to the art style quite frequently during XC, but I was constantly thinking how much better it would like in actual HD.

There is a very small chance that this will happen. You're just going to be disappointed. I think it would actually be cool to play Xenoblade on the tablet though.

 

[Bisnic]

As nice as Xenoblade Chronicles looks for a Wii game (particularly one developed a few years ago.. quite an impressive feat), I do hope that the Wii U comes with the capability of upscaling the resolution of Wii games in a manner similar to the Dolphin. I marveled at the visuals due to the art style quite frequently during XC, but I was constantly thinking how much better it would like in actual HD.

I would definitely be inclined to play some older games I've put off due to the poor graphics of the system.

I just want AA for the Wii U. And i want it to works for Wii games too. AA is very important for me and for many people!

Still not stopping me from enjoying Xenoblade on my HDTV, been playing for nearly 100 hours so far(and still not done with it, this game has a ridiculous amount of content), but the jaggies are really really bad.

 

[Criminal Upper]

If it had been on the 360 or PS3 we couldn't have used our imaginations to fill in the details!

smh

Read the article, maybe.

 

[radionerd]

There are plenty of amazing games on the other consoles that can provide the experiences you're looking for. Why is it important if it says Nintendo on the box or not?

Because Nintendo used to make those games that just blew me away on all fronts. Other companies have taken up the torch, but Nintendo development on cutting edge hardware gives me a stiffy. Rage against the dying of the light!

 

[Orca]

smh

Read the article, maybe.

Read the reaction to the article.

 

[Meccanical]

The whole "can't have HD towns" was proven false by Lost Odyssey and FF XIII-2. Their disc space issues were because of a ridiculous over-reliance on FMV to tell the story. Games can't be open world and look good? Did none of the people claiming this play Just Cause 2?

Well Lost Odyssey's and XIII-2's towns were kind of sparse, so there's that.

They fit the standard set by past games sure but they didn't raise the bar.

 

[Neverfade]

"You can keep your prettier graphics -- I want a better game! "

They're totally mutually exclusive, rite?

 

[Pureauthor]

They're totally mutually exclusive, rite?

I'm pretty sure the entire point of Sterling's article is that yes, in several cases, they are.

Now you are free to disagree, but flippancy doesn't help anyone.

 

[BHZ Mayor]

They're totally mutually exclusive, rite?

These days, it's becoming dangerously closer and closer to being true.

 

[impact]

Yup, watching people defend the Zelda HD tech demo, and sometimes lifting it up to levels of silliness, are no different than any other graphics whore.

Graphics only matter when my favorite console has good graphics!

 

[H_Prestige]

LMAO, I love this thread. "You can't have a good game like xenoblade on HD consoles guys, only possible on last gen tech, sorry".

 

[Sadist]

Jim Sterling respectfully disagrees with Kluwe:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml

I... I agree.