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Games designed around selling strategy guides
- Thread starter alr1ght
- Start date
Yeah, I don't think it was designed to be that way, though. I've never seen any reports about how it is in Japanese but you definitely can't beat it without a guide in English.
Not really directly addressing OP exactly, but I got significantly more satisfaction out of Dark Souls while I used a (video) guide than when I didn't. Not that exploratory design can't be good, but when it involves a lot of backtracking through areas, you just create redundant and repetitive experiences. Some areas were fun to go back through, most weren't.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Some RPGs, especially ones with ultimate weapons and many unlockables, can feel like this...
For example, I just got done playing Star Ocean 2 the other day:
- The game has a bunch of unlockable characters. For some, recruiting them is as easy as agreeing to follow them on such and such quest, or saying 'yes' if they ask to come with you. The game doesn't tell you that having some characters makes you unable to get others later in the game - not as in a "you have too many", but in a "you can either have this guy or these two characters". If you didn't know beforehand, it becomes trial-and-error if you want to go for a certain party.
- Through crafting, you can get pretty good weapons. One of the main character's best weapons involves picking up a certain sword after an in-game tournament (which is not available anywhere else), and forging that sword with one of the rarest minerals in the game, twice - the forging itself requires you to max out your customization skills to even have a tiny chance at success. Forging it into anything else produces a different weapon that is probably much worse, or produces a failure of a weapon that can't be used for anything. Hope you like restarting.
- There's a feature in the game called Private Action, where you split up your party and go off and do your thing inside a town. You can talk to the other members of your party, and sometimes engage in little skits with them. These skits can influence the invisible relationship points and friendship points between the MC and these party members, and the FP/RP between each of the party members themselves (28 pairs in total for a full 8 person party). One of the noteworthy things about the game is the fact that there are 82+ endings. You want certain pairings? Good luck with that, seeing as how the game only vaguely hints at relationship points at one of the final towns. Also good luck seeing as how the PAs for certain characters aren't present in great supply (particularly the ones for lategame characters).
- Speaking of PAs, there are two in particular - the first one, if you don't do it immediately before entering an earlygame town normally, too bad because the town is completely destroyed afterwards (and this is on your first visit, by the way). The second one involves backtracking from the final save point, doing a PA in a certain town, and talking to the same lady you met in the first PA in a rando spot on a certain building. The result of this? The final boss has his limiter removed, sending his HP into the millions and upping the rest of his stats to such a point that it requires that you max out your party in order to have a chance to beat him. Have fun...
- And the bonus dungeon where you can get the best gear for everyone? Only reachable by backtracking from that final save point (and it is a looong way, with little recourse from random encounters), going to talk to a random NPC in a place you could have honestly overlooked (since he is innocuous otherwise), and then when you are transported to a different location, you have to fly to an uninhabited island that you were unable to go to before (since you get your 'airship' lategame). Said dungeon also requires extreme training to overcome. Good luck knowing about this beforehand.
- On skills - there is a certain skill (Scout), which lets you look for monsters (Encounter rate = 150%) or avoid monsters (50%). What it doesn't tell you is that if you don't have the talent for dealing with animals, the effects are reversed. Good luck if you're a first time player and think the game is glitched
- To know the final bosses' true intentions (since the truth of the events that transpire are pretty much a lie), you have to do a certain non-indicative sidequest, involving talking to a bunch of people and going back and forth between various towns in a certain order. If you don't do this, the motivations of the final boss (and company) may seem a bit confusing
God that game was so great; sucks what happened to the series.
Zelda 1's bombable caves and burnable trees. Gamers who first play the game today think that the game is designed around trial and error and finding the bombable caves and burnable trees requires bombing every single place and burning every single bush. These secrets are not designed around trial and error, you're supposed to find them by buying Nintendo products and reading tips that would tell you their locations.
Sierra's old adventure games are designed to make you call a 1-900 number to get tips on how to progress.
Sierra's old adventure games are designed to make you call a 1-900 number to get tips on how to progress.
The weird ass localization for the townsfolk seemed to be the biggest issue, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese version was easier.
I guess RPGs with super obscure triggers for permanently missable items/sidequests would be the biggest offender here. Even with a guide that shit is just tedious and dumb.
This is true too. I really liked the look of the Dark Souls 1 guide book so I bought it even if I wasn't planning on using it much. But so much was changed within the patches that the most useful aspects are out of date.
Why not?
Sectorseven
Member
ColtraineGF
Member
Some moments in Battle Network 3:
- There's a device you get ingame called the Navi Customizer, where you install programs that look like Tetris blocks into a grid to give Megaman.exe new abilities and such. Some of these blocks are a bit big or were shaped weirdly, lending to some weird and restrictive setups. There are 3 things that help you here:
Compression codes - button combos which can shrink a part down to as little as one square.
Error code correction - 8 character passwords you can enter when you get an error in the program grid from using program colors that are not from your class (e.g. Guts parts when you are Navi Style) which lets you run things normally. Allows for some interesting combos.
EX codes - 8 character passwords which give you the effect of a certain program part without having that part in the memory map.
There are a ton of these passwords/combos, and a majority of them aren't even stated in the game - you'd have to watch the anime for some of them (good luck when the particular episode is censored, which happened a bunch), and others come from toys and other media that never left Japan. So yeah... you pretty much need to go to GameFAQs for these.
- Button combos for certain chips (e.g. turning GutsPunch from a single fist hitting the square in front of you to a rocket fist that flies through the entire column) - these are definitely not very apparent. VarSword is a heavy offender here... no way to get some of 'em without looking at a guide.
- Numberman passwords. There is an ingame machine where you enter a number, and you get a prize. Some of these prizes are super rare chips. Some of them are essential programs letting you spin differently colored parts in the NaviCust (essential for making the best out of it). I can't recall if this is the game where you can buy chocolates to get numbers for the machine, but all of the prize-giving numbers aren't given ingame - more cross media efforts are needed.
- This is one I didn't even know about, since I looked up a guide for completing it - there's a certain sidequest in the game where you collect several books that lead the way to a treasure. You have the option once you get them all of giving them back immediately, or using them to find the treasure (300k zennys, which is a lot in this game). Put together the clues from the books, and what do they spell? ハニワ, because the localizers didn't translate the clue
- There's a device you get ingame called the Navi Customizer, where you install programs that look like Tetris blocks into a grid to give Megaman.exe new abilities and such. Some of these blocks are a bit big or were shaped weirdly, lending to some weird and restrictive setups. There are 3 things that help you here:
Compression codes - button combos which can shrink a part down to as little as one square.
Error code correction - 8 character passwords you can enter when you get an error in the program grid from using program colors that are not from your class (e.g. Guts parts when you are Navi Style) which lets you run things normally. Allows for some interesting combos.
EX codes - 8 character passwords which give you the effect of a certain program part without having that part in the memory map.
There are a ton of these passwords/combos, and a majority of them aren't even stated in the game - you'd have to watch the anime for some of them (good luck when the particular episode is censored, which happened a bunch), and others come from toys and other media that never left Japan. So yeah... you pretty much need to go to GameFAQs for these.
- Button combos for certain chips (e.g. turning GutsPunch from a single fist hitting the square in front of you to a rocket fist that flies through the entire column) - these are definitely not very apparent. VarSword is a heavy offender here... no way to get some of 'em without looking at a guide.
- Numberman passwords. There is an ingame machine where you enter a number, and you get a prize. Some of these prizes are super rare chips. Some of them are essential programs letting you spin differently colored parts in the NaviCust (essential for making the best out of it). I can't recall if this is the game where you can buy chocolates to get numbers for the machine, but all of the prize-giving numbers aren't given ingame - more cross media efforts are needed.
- This is one I didn't even know about, since I looked up a guide for completing it - there's a certain sidequest in the game where you collect several books that lead the way to a treasure. You have the option once you get them all of giving them back immediately, or using them to find the treasure (300k zennys, which is a lot in this game). Put together the clues from the books, and what do they spell? ハニワ, because the localizers didn't translate the clue
The crappy localization of Castlevania 2 had the townspeople giving you unhelpful, untruthful or nonsensical hints.
Final Fantasy X-2 is (to me at least) the biggest offender of this. A few examples:
To get the Force of Nature accessory you have to complete the Thunder Plains mission in Chapter 5 and go back into the cave you find during the mission. You then have to complete a maths puzzle which requires writing down a lot of notes (or having an extremely good memory). Once the puzzle is complete you leave the cave, then go back in and do it again. Once it's complete a second time the chest appears with Force of Nature. As far as you're concerned the Garment Grid you get for completing it the first time is the reward, nothing hints at doing it a second time.
One of the repair guides for the experiment is obtained by standing in the middle of three monkeys who jump at random intervals. When all three are jumping at the same time push X and you get the manual. There are no clues about this at all. The closest is a NPC acknowledging those three monkeys, but not saying anything about them having an item.
If you complete the Mi'ihen Highroad Mystery you can ride chocobos. In one of the maps you need to stand on a feather that's on the floor whilst riding a chocobo for about 10 seconds. You'll then get asked if you want to grab a chest. This chest only has 5 Phoenix Downs. However, if you leave that map and return you can stand back on the feather for about 20 seconds you get asked about a second chest which contains an item that allows Paine's special dressphere to break the damage limit. Again, no hints at all about this.
And of course there's the requirements for 100%. You can miss out almost right away if you take a quick detour during the opening mission (you have no reason to). You can miss out on 100% if you skip a single line of Maechen's stories. You can miss out on a very important story scene if you don't go to Bevelle once Djose is a hotspot (why this scene is optional is beyond me. It's quite vital to the story). You can sometimes miss out on 100% just by talking to a certain character before any others.
To me FFX-2 is the definitive guide-dang-it game.
To get the Force of Nature accessory you have to complete the Thunder Plains mission in Chapter 5 and go back into the cave you find during the mission. You then have to complete a maths puzzle which requires writing down a lot of notes (or having an extremely good memory). Once the puzzle is complete you leave the cave, then go back in and do it again. Once it's complete a second time the chest appears with Force of Nature. As far as you're concerned the Garment Grid you get for completing it the first time is the reward, nothing hints at doing it a second time.
One of the repair guides for the experiment is obtained by standing in the middle of three monkeys who jump at random intervals. When all three are jumping at the same time push X and you get the manual. There are no clues about this at all. The closest is a NPC acknowledging those three monkeys, but not saying anything about them having an item.
If you complete the Mi'ihen Highroad Mystery you can ride chocobos. In one of the maps you need to stand on a feather that's on the floor whilst riding a chocobo for about 10 seconds. You'll then get asked if you want to grab a chest. This chest only has 5 Phoenix Downs. However, if you leave that map and return you can stand back on the feather for about 20 seconds you get asked about a second chest which contains an item that allows Paine's special dressphere to break the damage limit. Again, no hints at all about this.
And of course there's the requirements for 100%. You can miss out almost right away if you take a quick detour during the opening mission (you have no reason to). You can miss out on 100% if you skip a single line of Maechen's stories. You can miss out on a very important story scene if you don't go to Bevelle once Djose is a hotspot (why this scene is optional is beyond me. It's quite vital to the story). You can sometimes miss out on 100% just by talking to a certain character before any others.
To me FFX-2 is the definitive guide-dang-it game.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I don't agree at all.
A lot of 16- and 32-bit games included secret codes just so they could get some free publicity in gaming mags.
Final Fantasy games from VII onwards have consistently included some incredibly obscure stuff that no sane player could find without a guide. Unfortunately for Square, the Internet exists.
Final Fantasy games from VII onwards have consistently included some incredibly obscure stuff that no sane player could find without a guide. Unfortunately for Square, the Internet exists.
I would have expected those to be the same across Europe,
but in Germany Yoshi's Island came in a normal box, without a guide,
while Super Metroid came with a guide, bnut I don't remember how far the guide went.
eXistor
Member
My first thought as well, shit was ridiculous.
I have the German edition and that came with a full 100% walkthrough.
batman2million
Member
Now that I think about it, I don't know why they would be called strategy guides. They just tell you where to go and what the answer to any on coming puzzle would be. It would be more like "let me tell you what to do" guide.
It seems like people are confusing a guide being needed to absolutely 100% the collection element of a game vs needing a guide to even complete the main objective of a game. This should be "Original Legend of Zelda: The Thread." Even just some of the dungeon entrances in that game are a nightmare.
Lord British
Member
Yeah, that's my vote. I love those games, but sheesh! Police Quest, in particular...
Obviously, the answer is Bayonetta
Joking aside, a lot of early NES games seemed that way. Especially Simon's Quest.
Joking aside, a lot of early NES games seemed that way. Especially Simon's Quest.
NEVER PUT DOWN YOUR GUN, EVEN IF THERE'S A HOSTAGE AT RISK.
Phantasy Star 2. It even included one with map.
It was included but still was insane to finish it without reading it.
It was pretty bad. But I made it even harder on myself than necessary, until I noticed the direction of triangles in the telepads were different, lol. That helped.
It is still the best self-chosen only birthday present of the year due to the absurdly high price, ever. It made that summer.RottenTanuki
Member
I'll go with Final Fantasy VII considering it's the last one I bought.
There was a Giantbomb play-through of that recently, I almost couldn't believe some of the bull-plop in that game. I'd played most of the others, but what I saw of that one just made it look miserable to play.
Shadowman16
Member
This 100 times over. I don't recall having as many issues with Forbidden Siren 2 (it was more forgiving) but I swear its impossible to clear the game 100% with the "good" ending without a guide. Between the secret requirements in each level (that need items from other levels to activate) and the secondary goals (some of which had the most strict timing). That said the game is actually one of my favourite survival horror games released!
Some RPGs, especially ones with ultimate weapons and many unlockables, can feel like this...
For example, I just got done playing Star Ocean 2 the other day:
- The game has a bunch of unlockable characters. For some, recruiting them is as easy as agreeing to follow them on such and such quest, or saying 'yes' if they ask to come with you. The game doesn't tell you that having some characters makes you unable to get others later in the game - not as in a "you have too many", but in a "you can either have this guy or these two characters". If you didn't know beforehand, it becomes trial-and-error if you want to go for a certain party.
- Through crafting, you can get pretty good weapons. One of the main character's best weapons involves picking up a certain sword after an in-game tournament (which is not available anywhere else), and forging that sword with one of the rarest minerals in the game, twice - the forging itself requires you to max out your customization skills to even have a tiny chance at success. Forging it into anything else produces a different weapon that is probably much worse, or produces a failure of a weapon that can't be used for anything. Hope you like restarting.
- There's a feature in the game called Private Action, where you split up your party and go off and do your thing inside a town. You can talk to the other members of your party, and sometimes engage in little skits with them. These skits can influence the invisible relationship points and friendship points between the MC and these party members, and the FP/RP between each of the party members themselves (28 pairs in total for a full 8 person party). One of the noteworthy things about the game is the fact that there are 82+ endings. You want certain pairings? Good luck with that, seeing as how the game only vaguely hints at relationship points at one of the final towns. Also good luck seeing as how the PAs for certain characters aren't present in great supply (particularly the ones for lategame characters).
- Speaking of PAs, there are two in particular - the first one, if you don't do it immediately before entering an earlygame town normally, too bad because the town is completely destroyed afterwards (and this is on your first visit, by the way). The second one involves backtracking from the final save point, doing a PA in a certain town, and talking to the same lady you met in the first PA in a rando spot on a certain building. The result of this? The final boss has his limiter removed, sending his HP into the millions and upping the rest of his stats to such a point that it requires that you max out your party in order to have a chance to beat him. Have fun...
- And the bonus dungeon where you can get the best gear for everyone? Only reachable by backtracking from that final save point (and it is a looong way, with little recourse from random encounters), going to talk to a random NPC in a place you could have honestly overlooked (since he is innocuous otherwise), and then when you are transported to a different location, you have to fly to an uninhabited island that you were unable to go to before (since you get your 'airship' lategame). Said dungeon also requires extreme training to overcome. Good luck knowing about this beforehand.
- On skills - there is a certain skill (Scout), which lets you look for monsters (Encounter rate = 150%) or avoid monsters (50%). What it doesn't tell you is that if you don't have the talent for dealing with animals, the effects are reversed. Good luck if you're a first time player and think the game is glitched
- To know the final bosses' true intentions (since the truth of the events that transpire are pretty much a lie), you have to do a certain non-indicative sidequest, involving talking to a bunch of people and going back and forth between various towns in a certain order. If you don't do this, the motivations of the final boss (and company) may seem a bit confusing
This sounds awesome and like total horse fuck at the same time.
The only thing in Dark Souls 2 that's really confusing without a guide is
Everything else you can easily get just from talking to the NPCs or written messages.
burning the windmill, since it's such an unintuitive thing to do. It's not mandatory, but it's probably the only way some people are gonna be beating Mytha.
Everything else you can easily get just from talking to the NPCs or written messages.
TheSpoiler
Member
Way of the Samurai series.
Some of the endings aren't too bad, but getting weapons without some sort of guide is maddening.
Some of the endings aren't too bad, but getting weapons without some sort of guide is maddening.
A lot of cRPGS from the 90's and early 2000's made it so that using a guide was almost necessary to find everything. Baldurs gate etc.
The only guide I ever remember buying was one for dragon age origins. I only bought it because it was on sale and the book itself was very well made.
Was extremely useful and had enemy locations and weaknesses, Back story for characters and environments , step by step directions,and every item and there stats and there locations all neatly tabled and organised.
Thinking about it I should buy more strategy guides more often for RPGs to get more out of the story.
The only guide I ever remember buying was one for dragon age origins. I only bought it because it was on sale and the book itself was very well made.
Was extremely useful and had enemy locations and weaknesses, Back story for characters and environments , step by step directions,and every item and there stats and there locations all neatly tabled and organised.
Thinking about it I should buy more strategy guides more often for RPGs to get more out of the story.
Nymphae
Banned
Before the internet was big, fighting games. It was the only place to get good move lists, and often times, elaboration on the characters/game's back story.
I used to love picking up one of these tomes and fooling myself into believing I would study the whole thing until I was a master at a particular fighting game. Which of course never happened, but I can dream.
I used to love picking up one of these tomes and fooling myself into believing I would study the whole thing until I was a master at a particular fighting game. Which of course never happened, but I can dream.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Actually, I'm playing Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen at the moment, and while it doesn't need a strategy guide just to play and enjoy the game, some of the high-level stuff is really obscure with things that the game never ever tells you, ultra-rare item drops and so on. While I really like that it leaves a lot for the player to discover and there is absolutely tons of depth, it feels absolutely made for a strategy guide due to how oblique some of its systems are.
Violence Jack
Member
I remember those days. The last one I ever bought was for GTA: San Andreas. It was the size of a phonebook that I ended up never opening.
Triggerhappytel
Member
The last one I bought was Dark Souls. Still haven't finished it yet. Nowadays with my phone or tablet always nearby I tend to just use a game's Wiki, which is typically far more in depth than a guide rushed out in the six weeks before release. If I just need a straight walkthrough I usually refer to YouTube.
ChuyMasta
Member
Baten Kaitos. Good luck 100% your card deck without a guide!
Cards "evolve" with time. Milk turns into yogurt, turns into cheese. Makes sense. Except it takes forever and some of these cards are unique and you need to do something with them when the card is in phase 2. If you miss it, sol!
Combo lists are so obscure. Some NPC's give you hints while others flat out tell you what to combine. The problem is getting the cards you need while in combat mode.
Cards "evolve" with time. Milk turns into yogurt, turns into cheese. Makes sense. Except it takes forever and some of these cards are unique and you need to do something with them when the card is in phase 2. If you miss it, sol!
Combo lists are so obscure. Some NPC's give you hints while others flat out tell you what to combine. The problem is getting the cards you need while in combat mode.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Most JRPGs in the 2000s if you want to 100%. It is like basic progression became too easy they had to put obscure side quests. Taking Tales of the Abyss as I just played through it (so its fresh) there are a tonne of minor sidequests with arbitrary cut-offs, you will miss them (unless you literally talk to everyone whenever something happens and are super astute about surroundings). Besides to 100% you need a second playthrough as completing the collectors book (which to get is a missable sidequest) requires two items you can only get for a sidequest which gives you a choice of one of three...there is also that title that requires you to beat the optional boss on a difficulty setting that doesn't exist in playthrough 1...and a bonus dungeon that also doesn't exist.
I guess its kind of like fighting games in the respect that you can play without but you may miss out on strategies and special moves.
I also guess recruiting people in Fire Emblem games is another one. While the dialogue usually makes it obvious there can still be a few who are easy to accidentally kill (Dart for instance, you might try talking with everyone you have to no response and so think he won't join). I guess that one that takes the cake is Stefan. Stand on a certain space of a specific map with one of a few characters that is not stated anywhere. How can anyone figure that one out?
*-The one when you're in an area you can't level up in
.
I guess its kind of like fighting games in the respect that you can play without but you may miss out on strategies and special moves.
I also guess recruiting people in Fire Emblem games is another one. While the dialogue usually makes it obvious there can still be a few who are easy to accidentally kill (Dart for instance, you might try talking with everyone you have to no response and so think he won't join). I guess that one that takes the cake is Stefan. Stand on a certain space of a specific map with one of a few characters that is not stated anywhere. How can anyone figure that one out?
Oh god this. That boss fight on disc 2* becomes very manageable when you can combine items to make the potion that heals for 500 HP and resurrects the target if they are dead (and you will have necessary ingredients even if you're at the save point as they come with Mizuti's staring deck but sadly, is it relatively unknown as I never saw anyone say "make this, it'll help" as advice rather "keep trying or start over the whole game", I'm also guilty of that poor advice, it was only in a level 21 playthrough that I found out about it).
*-The one when you're in an area you can't level up in
The Goldoba against the Chatoic Trio
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