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Games with large Skill Gaps

Good RTS:s like Starcraft 1/2 obviously. I'd say the skillgap in sc and sc2 is bigger than any fps.
Edit:
Damn, yoshi is fast.
 
Halo 2 for sure. Halo 3 for some extend as well. Probably Halo 1 but I haven't played MP for that one as much.
 
Fighting games, before I came to GAF I didn't even know smash bros can be competitive play.
Some RTS
And a a few action games.

I will edit when I think of some good examples.
 
Sec0nd said:
Halo 2 for sure. Halo 3 for some extend as well. Probably Halo 1 but I haven't played MP for that one as much.
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Common, really? I mean if the Halo games have a large skill gap according to you, what games have a small skill gap? I think the Halo games are some of the lowest skill gap fps's out there. If you want to see high skill fps gameplay watch some Quake 3 Arena. Even top level Halo is full of unskillfull misses and sidestepping instead of aiming. And the movement speed is really low in Halo games as well.
 
Quake 3 Arena/Live. You see those people strafing like crazy, single-shot fragging others with line guns and getting all the armors and ammo, and then you have noobs like me.
Still fun regardless.
Also, any RE Mercenaries, they become character action games. (Also, any Platinum/DMC/Ninja Gaiden games, but that was easy)
 
cpooi said:
Rhythm games. Put a beginner on the hardest difficulty and see them fail in 10s.
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I'm actually inclined to disagree, as rhythm games have a pretty natural skill progression. Or at least most do. Start at early levels and your skill should improve as you get into harder and harder songs. The games are designed to be pretty natural curves, all things considered. The gameplay isn't really changing, just the intensity of it. (note: but in the sense of watching someone play a rhythm game, yes, experts would look intimidating to beginners)

Compare that to a lot of multiplayer games. DotA, fighters, etc. You could play those on your own for hours and barely improve or learn anything at all. Your understanding of core mechanics will be completely changed from beginner to pro.
 
Wonderful 101
Fighting Games


I'll also add Cloudbuilt. Newcomers look... awkward. It almost looks like they have never played a 3D game before, even though they have. Meanwhile high level players pretty much fly around the level and do some pretty tricky things. Go search for some of Kalifen's YouTube videos if you are interested. Then you can watch Jim Sterling play it, and watch as he tries to figure out how to wall run.
 
ZeroX03 said:
I'm actually inclined to disagree, as rhythm games have a pretty natural skill progression. Or at least most do. Start at early levels and your skill should improve as you get into harder and harder songs. The games are designed to be pretty natural curves, all things considered. The gameplay isn't really changing, just the intensity of it. (note: but in the sense of watching someone play a rhythm game, yes, experts would look intimidating to beginners)

Compare that to a lot of multiplayer games. DotA, fighters, etc. You could play those on your own for hours and barely improve or learn anything at all. Your understanding of core mechanics will be completely changed from beginner to pro.
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As the OP said:

Bornstellar said:
Which games show the largest differences between experienced players and those who are just starting to learn?
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cpooi said:
As the OP said: Which games show the largest differences between experienced players and those who are just starting to learn?
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The only difference is the speed at which notes are hit - or at least for most rhythm titles. That's actually a pretty minor difference compared to other genres mentioned.

If the question is: what genre is visually more intimidating to new players, then it might count, but I didn't really read it that way.
 
I think RTS games are the obvious answer.

They require you to not only think on multiple layers at the same time (strategical, tactical, economic), each of which needs both large amounts of general knowledge and situational experience, but also to do all of that under enormous time pressure, and potentially while micro-managing multiple battles in different locations.
 
Durante said:
I think RTS games are the obvious answer.

They require you to not only think on multiple layers at the same time (strategical, tactical, economic), each of which needs both large amounts of general knowledge and situational experience, but also to do all of that under enormous time pressure, and potentially while micro-managing multiple battles in different locations.
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And also the mind game and meta game aspects. Knowing your opponent and exploiting his/her personal weaknesses, or even the weaknesses of an entire enemy team... Professional BW/SC2 are truly complex.
 
it's very easy to overlook SNK!!!

SNK fighters are/were at least 20 years ahead of the comp when it comes to depth….so any of those!
 
ZeroX03 said:
I'm actually inclined to disagree, as rhythm games have a pretty natural skill progression. Or at least most do. Start at early levels and your skill should improve as you get into harder and harder songs. The games are designed to be pretty natural curves, all things considered. The gameplay isn't really changing, just the intensity of it. (note: but in the sense of watching someone play a rhythm game, yes, experts would look intimidating to beginners)

Compare that to a lot of multiplayer games. DotA, fighters, etc. You could play those on your own for hours and barely improve or learn anything at all. Your understanding of core mechanics will be completely changed from beginner to pro.
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And you think it takes mere hours to go from Easy/Medium to Expert in games like Guitar Hero or Rockband? A lot of people spend copious amounts of time and never come close to being good enough for Expert.

Even Through the Fires and Flames on medium to expert is a massive skill gap, let alone an easy song like Livin' on a Prayer Medium to TtFaF on Expert.
 
I'm serious with this one.

Call of Duty.

Many can play it, few can master it. Noobs just get slaughtered left and right. In my time of playing the series, one or two people out of 8 in a lobby are great players, the rest are just crappy.
 
Horp said:
Common, really? I mean if the Halo games have a large skill gap according to you, what games have a small skill gap? I think the Halo games are some of the lowest skill gap fps's out there. If you want to see high skill fps gameplay watch some Quake 3 Arena. Even top level Halo is full of unskillfull misses and sidestepping instead of aiming. And the movement speed is really low in Halo games as well.
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at conventions they ran halo 1v1s with a pro and most people couldnt even touch him with most challengers dieing within seconds of them spawning and even if they did get the first shot he would just turn around and pop a couple of perfect headshots, killing them in seconds.

i mean the average first to 10 took about 40 seconds.

Halo has a very high skill gap between highly skilled players and average players. We just usually see pro footage and thats pretty hard to judge because they are all top players.
 
Abylim said:
And you think it takes mere hours to go from Easy/Medium to Expert in games like Guitar Hero or Rockband? A lot of people spend copious amounts of time and never come close to being good enough for Expert.

Even Through the Fires and Flames on medium to expert is a massive skill gap, let alone an easy song like Livin' on a Prayer Medium to TtFaF on Expert.
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When did I say mere hours?

I'm a 10 star DDR player, platinum'd Miku, years of Guitar Freaks and EZ2DJ and I'm playing Theatrhythm FF Curtain Call on Extreme while surfing GAF. I know how long it takes to get decent at a rhythm game, but it's still only technically one thing: hitting a button at the right time. Frankly that's just not on par with the depth required from DotA or Starcraft or fighting games, etc. It's practice but there's no deeper layer, no additional thought required from the player (outside of tweaks to techniques to some guitar based games).

There is a big visual gap between a beginner playing a music game and an expert but the difference is only how well versed they are in a single skill. Like I could be an absolutely god tier last hitter in DotA, but that's still one tiny piece of the puzzle.

Renekton said:
I played both SC and SC2, and still don't know what I'm looking at. This proves your point D:
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Great example here. The skill gap is so big in SC2 that a player who has played the game before can't even comprehend it. Hell, I can't.
 
ZeroX03 said:
When did I say mere hours?

I'm a 10 star DDR player, platinum'd Miku, years of Guitar Freaks and EZ2DJ and I'm playing Theatrhythm FF Curtain Call on Extreme while surfing GAF. I know how long it takes to get decent at a rhythm game, but it's still only technically one thing: hitting a button at the right time. Frankly that's just not on par with the depth required from DotA or Starcraft or fighting games, etc. It's practice but there's no deeper layer, no additional thought required from the player (outside of tweaks to techniques to some guitar based games).

There is a big visual gap between a beginner playing a music game and an expert but the difference is only how well versed they are in a single skill. Like I could be an absolutely god tier last hitter in DotA, but that's still one tiny piece of the puzzle.



Great example here. The skill gap is so big in SC2 that a player who has played the game before can't even comprehend it. Hell, I can't.
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Theres more to GH and RB than just hitting the right button, thats way over simplifying.
Alt strumming, and properly doing hammer ons and pull offs takes practices, and definitely separates new players from the skilled.

I get that you're saying the games like DotA and SC are tactical, and thats different from just reflexively hitting notes, but it's not that simple, and the OP asked for games with big skill gaps. I think GH and RB type games definitely fit the bill.
 
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