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Games with large Skill Gaps

Fighting games and monster hunter.

Monster Hunter IS a fighting game. ;)

There's something interesting about watching a group of 4 greenhorn hunters take 45 minutes to down a low rank Barroth. Then watch a single veteran take it down in 5. Same game, same gear, same controllers, a whole other league.
 
I'm going to say rhythm games only because Project Diva f is currently giving me a lot of trouble in my transition to Hard and Extreme. I can't beat this, let alone THIS.
 
DOTA, SC2, Ninja Gaiden, SF (all of them) Halo, are all games where the best players vs a noob if you handicapped the best player (take 75% health for example) and gave the noob the most powerful weapon, the skilled player will always win. Rythm games I see as different as I have seen kids who have never played them before wreck shit at the highest level
 
Character action games (i.e., the original Devil May Cry series, Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising), fighting games, God Hand, Vanquish, Monster Hunter, Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. Things like that.

Some of these are relatively difficult, but I just don't think any of those games come all that close to the skill gaps in the most difficult games. I haven't played all of the games you listed, of course, but God Hand took me a few weeks to beat on the hardest difficulty; I could probably have spent a couple more months, if I so chose, completely mastering it. The same is true of Ninja Gaiden.

Starcraft, on the other hand, is profoundly more complex, deep, and difficult to master. Men of War perhaps even more so. Generally, multiplayer games are where people looking for a challenge go (the other option would be score attack games, e.g. Tetris). In other words, I agree God Hand is considered difficult for a single player game, but single player games in general are going to present far less of a challenge than a skilled human opponent. Present day AI just isn't comparable to an intelligent human.
 
Pac-Man: CE & CE DX. True beginners may not even manage to last all the way to the end of the time limit, whereas experts rarely die at all (and if they do, they immediately reset) & have very different completion paths. They're basically shmups minus the shooting part.
 
Kerbal Space Program.

Noob : explode on launch pad

Expert : Space stations and space planes with fuel mining operations on captured asteroids
 
Definitely the Super Smash Bros. series for me, especially Melee and Brawl. You can see who's just beginning and who's experienced in the first 10 seconds.
 
Fighting games. Particularly Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

After a certain point, new players had to be amazingly stubborn to get in on the action. And trying to get new players in on it when you're good at it yourself is an exercise in itself. You either take it easy on them which they'll probably eventually realize and call you out on, or you show them the busted-ass (yet amazing) game that it is and they probably put down their controller mid combo.
 
Monster Hunter IS a fighting game. ;)

There's something interesting about watching a group of 4 greenhorn hunters take 45 minutes to down a low rank Barroth. Then watch a single veteran take it down in 5. Same game, same gear, same controllers, a whole other league.

Also watching a narga tear teams a new one is pretty amusing.
 
Monster Hunter IS a fighting game. ;)

There's something interesting about watching a group of 4 greenhorn hunters take 45 minutes to down a low rank Barroth. Then watch a single veteran take it down in 5. Same game, same gear, same controllers, a whole other league.
Agreed.

One thing I really have always liked about monster hunter in particular is that, unlike some other games where you can drop someone in with high level/end game gear and they will destroy everything, it's just not possible in monster hunter. Even with the best possible equipment and charms it just won't matter. Skill is the paramount importance in the game.
 
Some of these are relatively difficult, but I just don't think any of those games come all that close to the skill gaps in the most difficult games. I haven't played all of the games you listed, of course, but God Hand took me a few weeks to beat on the hardest difficulty; I could probably have spent a couple more months, if I so chose, completely mastering it. The same is true of Ninja Gaiden.

Starcraft, on the other hand, is profoundly more complex, deep, and difficult to master. Men of War perhaps even more so. Generally, multiplayer games are where people looking for a challenge go (the other option would be score attack games, e.g. Tetris). In other words, I agree God Hand is considered difficult for a single player game, but single player games in general are going to present far less of a challenge than a skilled human opponent. Present day AI just isn't comparable to an intelligent human.

It's not the single player difficulty that is being discussed though, it's the complexity and what can be achieved through mastery.

I may not have much trouble finishing DMC4 on Dante Must Die but my play won't look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ioB_3hTOZgY#t=164
 
Definitely Melee and PM. It amazes me that people are still getting into the scene. I can 4 Stock new competitive players all day, but the skill gap between people is amazing.

The people that would 4 stock me would be 4 stocked themselves by at least 2 other tiers of players and then the best of those tiers would still be 4 stocked by the top 8 at the game and I've played the game competitively (off and on) for the last 10 years.

Definitely the Super Smash Bros. series for me, especially Melee and Brawl. You can see who's just beginning and who's experienced in the first 10 seconds.

I can notice high level play in Smash 64, Melee and PM, but just don't see it in Brawl or Smash 4 (yet). Send me videos of newbs or pros in either and I probably won't be able to tell the difference unless the newbs are like really really bad, but if they are at least moderately competitive, I won't be able to tell the difference. However in PM and Melee I can see that very easily.
 
Warhawk PS3, huge skill gap and learning curve and this is a shooter that had straight up sticky aim. It's why I never give **** If a game has a little aim assist or not, that's not where the skill comes from. Skill in shooters come from knowing how to position yourself.
 
Some of these are relatively difficult, but I just don't think any of those games come all that close to the skill gaps in the most difficult games. I haven't played all of the games you listed, of course, but God Hand took me a few weeks to beat on the hardest difficulty; I could probably have spent a couple more months, if I so chose, completely mastering it. The same is true of Ninja Gaiden.

Starcraft, on the other hand, is profoundly more complex, deep, and difficult to master. Men of War perhaps even more so. Generally, multiplayer games are where people looking for a challenge go (the other option would be score attack games, e.g. Tetris). In other words, I agree God Hand is considered difficult for a single player game, but single player games in general are going to present far less of a challenge than a skilled human opponent. Present day AI just isn't comparable to an intelligent human.

I believe that in character action games such as Bayonetta or Devil May Cry the difficulty shifts from fighting opponents to keeping ridiculously long combos and fulfilling the style/points meter without ever getting hit and in some cases, even touching the ground.

High level Bayonetta is a fucking wonder to behold.

It's a damn shame that there seems to be some sort of system in place in Bayo 2 that locks out longer combos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wnswf_UMsY

I hope that gets patched. I absolutely love watching insane Bayonetta videos. Although I'm not sure how many enemies have this feature, ideally there should be none.
 
How about some of the older Sim City games? I remember thinking I was pretty good at SC3K when I could fill a whole map, but then I found forums online where players are dedicated to deriving formulas and strategies to maximize populations in a given land area. It's like a whole different game at that skill level.
 
I'm not saying Halo doesn't have any skill gap at all. But there are just so many games that have a higher skill gap, imo, that it doesn't make sense to bring it up in this thread as an example of a game with high skill gap. I mean there is a great difference between a bad and a great TF2 player, but games like Brood War or Q3 are just on another level.

I think you didn't play a lot of high level halo 1.
 
Comparison in OP doesn't really make sense. It doesn't take too long to become efficient in CTF, especially if you learn the map layout.

Anyway, fighting games
 
Which games show the largest differences between experienced players and those who are just starting to learn?
  • Any decent MOBA game (League of Legends, Dota2, SMITE, HoN)
  • Any decent fighting game (SF, KI, KoF, VF, MvC, Smash, etc. etc. etc.)
  • Any FPS that doesn't feature aim-assist (PC) or has lots of additional meta features (like parkour or some such)
  • Bullet hell games (Ikaruga, Gradius, R-Type, etc.)
  • RTS games (StarCraft, Total War, Command & Conquer, Company of Heroes, etc.)
  • High-execution action titles (Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, etc.)
 
I actually disagree with the Souls series. I've beaten Demons and Dark (yet to play DS2) and while there is certainly a big difference in skill (I can beat the games dying maybe a handful of times at worst, people that start struggle really hard), the game mechanics are honestly not super deep compared to a lot of what is being discussed here. Knowledge and patience is 90% of the game. If someone who hasn't played the game before watches me play I'd likely make it look a bit boring and easy. I have seen some challenge runs/speed runs by top tier players, and while I'll definitely admit that they have a lot of skill, I would argue that the skill gap is much smaller than a lot of these games.

I play league and I know the same would go for Dota 2, the skill gap is huge between new players and experts. I've never played another genre where I can put literally over a thousand hours into the game and still not feel like I'm very good at the game. Sure I can completely stomp people new to the game, but it feels like I'm playing people that have no idea what they're doing rather than just being outright better than them. For example, in COD multiplayer I would argue most people have some idea what they're doing, and yet in Black Ops after I had put in 150ish hours into it (first time I'd ever played a multiplayer online fps to any real degree) I would stomp in PUGs literally 80% of the time. There is obviously a huge difference between that and between tactical teamplay by top tier players, but mechanically their skills are relatively close to a lot of people that stomp random games.

So I'd vote for MOBAs, their ancestors in the form of RTS (or strategy games in general), and fighting games because they're so damn unintuitive for new players to learn with combos.
 
Instead of just listing fighting games as a complete genre, I'm going to have to particularly point my finger at Tekken for this one. It's hard for your average person to see, but the gaps between the low level players and the intermediate players is incredibly huge. Thing is, the gap between the intermediate players and the top 32 major tournament placers is even wider. Scariest thing is, the top American tournament players have almost nothing to offer versus competition from South Korea.

This is mostly due to the obtuse, and sometimes arbitrary gameplay mechanics that Tekken stubbornly hangs on to though.
 
To avoid the obvious (fighingames, schmups, ddr...)

Platformers.

Had the controls to someone to play green hill zone. They will run past the rings run straight into that first motobug and die. Next time they will jumps for the rings, miss them and into the same guy again.

They can even watch you play first, and still be terrible. And if they by some miracle make it to the islands in Stage 3, down the hole they go.

And green hill zone is easy! Marble zone, the game is switched off.

Motobug.png

Bastard
 
Any fighting game, racing games like Gran Turismo,F-Zero, GTR2. Any arena shooter on PC and Halo on console. Any RTS game with company of heroes1+2 being the toughest by far.
 
The better I've gotten at melee, the more I've realised how terrible I am at this game compared to even an average tournament player. I watch someone like Hax play Fox and it doesn't seem physically possible, and he's a level below the very best.
 
Geometry wars. I have friends that can't play it for more than one minute without dying. Then there are people that high score over a billion without dying.
 
Fighting games. Particularly Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

After a certain point, new players had to be amazingly stubborn to get in on the action. And trying to get new players in on it when you're good at it yourself is an exercise in itself. You either take it easy on them which they'll probably eventually realize and call you out on, or you show them the busted-ass (yet amazing) game that it is and they probably put down their controller mid combo.

I have to agree that I think UMVC3 is actually a very high skill game. Doing damage is really easy in this game, but there is a lot of optimization going on and not only that, but multitudes of setups that occur constantly. Most games you see pros outplay a lesser player where they at least have the chance to walk around or at least execute some plan, in the marvel series the lesser player DOESN'T GET TO PLAY. Literally they don't play because they are either in hitstun, locked down, or have to block a mixup. There are times where the other player is so mindfuck that they can't block when incoming and just lose and constantly put into bad situations. Even in the neutral game you can see a pro completely outmanuever and lockdown the other player (such as ChrisG with the morridoom or FChamp's lockdown with Dormammu or smooth movement with Magneto).

In a way, if you get hit in Marvel, it's an "oh shit!" moment, very similar to say if you got stunned during a gank in a Moba (just a comparison since hitstun in a fighting game you can't act during it in most games unless the game had a burst or breaker), except it happens for every single hit, since people can die off jab starters in this game.
 
Fighting games. I have tried for the past three years to learn simple combos in umvc3 and Street Fighter and I could never get past the basics. Take Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, it looks like a nice brawler game, but the game has a steep learning curve, especially at a competitive level:

Noobs or newbies: http://youtu.be/GxmTDJew-b4?t=3m47s (caution: don't use headphones while watching this video. Make sure your volume isn't too high.)

Masters: http://youtu.be/t6D7XXwcrbo?t=5m22s

Notice how new players will try to spam moves that they know. They will be unable to make combos longer than ten to twenty hits. They also have a very basic and predictable strategy. For seasoned players, like Marlinpie and combofiend (two of very well known Marvel players in the Fighting Game Community) have teams that are of a "rushdown" technique and with a lot of mixups (that is to say that they can break up your defense, trying to get a hit to confirm into a full combo). Also, most of the combos from seasoned players are long combos, that usually kill the character. Most of the time it's a one hit kill. It takes a lot of skill and practice to do some of the things that this two players are able to do. Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is so broken, to the point that it's fun and allows for some crazy stuff to happen that has a steep learning curve. For example infinites.
 
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