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[Lockjaw333]

These threads are always so sickening.

These are the kinds of threads that bring out the most loudest most obnoxious individuals. These people complaining have no one to blame but themselves. This is clearly not a Sony customer support issue. This is an individual issue. If I was customer support helping a user who was utilizing a service for the company I worked for with the claim, "I got hacked, so and so spent $600 using my card tied to my account, I want my money back", then I probably couldn't care less.

The fact that user is claiming they got "hacked" is the first flag. If you weren't hacked through the service my company is providing then it sure as hell isn't my problem. The compromise is usually done through other methods that Sony/PlayStation Network doesn't have any control over and is directly controlled by the user. If you can't practice basic security measures for your online person then you have no business being online. Not only that, but Sony encourages best practice when signing up:

Password Requirements

* Between 8 and 30 characters in length
* Must contain at least one letter and one number
* Cannot use repeating characters (e.g. aaa64135, 111bcxjk)
* Cannot match your Sign-In ID (e-mail address)
* Passwords are case sensitive

Tips for Stronger Passwords

* Do not use a word found in the dictionary
* Use a mixture of letters, numbers and special characters (e.g. h37@f3-2)
* Use a combination of uppercase and lowercase letters
* Use supported special characters (e.g. !, @, #, $, &)
* For a strong and easy to remember password, create a personal acronym
* Use a different password than your other online accounts

(Verbatim Sony Policy)

If said individual was so concerned about the money that was lost and thought for second, they would immediately raise a dispute with their bank. Last time I checked, Sony doesn't run your bank. Do you actually think Sony has some kind of fraud protection service running within PlayStation Network? For the most part, these charges probably don't even raise a flag because daily revenue on PSN is millions of dollars.

This isn't a policy that just Sony implements, but rather a general practice by any major online service provider including Microsoft and Nintendo.

Your response is noble and all, but it doesn't change the fact that if you do bring it up with your bank / credit card and they try to reverse the funds, Sony will immediately ban your account and you lose all of your digital content, which in some cases may be worth more than the hacker charged to your account.

You have no idea how the person's account was infiltrated. You can assume it was their fault if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Sony bans your account and takes all of your digital shit. That's even more reprehensible than only offering a $150 refund.

There's something to be said for consumer-friendly policies regarding things like this.

 

[KingV]

It's more sickening the ignorance by some individuals. This is far from corporate apologism and more about common sense.

1.) Said user ties card info to account.

2.) User gets compromised outside of service user is utilizing.

3.) User blames corporation service user is utilizing, demands refund.

4.) Company says sorry, not my problem.

5.) Go to the press.

Where's the threat? The simple and most obvious move is to contact your bank about fraudulent charges, not your service provider.

Honestly, the user is doing Sony a favor by contacting them. For card not present transactions, the retailer is financially responsible for fraud and not the bank. By going to Sony, it gives Sony the opportunity to make this right without going through the Chargeback process (which has a nominal fee of a few dollars for each step in the chain, depending on how Sony manages that process).

I would suggest that it is irresponsible for Sony to NOT have a fraud department, or some way to manage their fraud losses outside of strong arming account owners. There are various ways to do that, like some blocking transactions/requiring if too many are made at an IP too far from the card owners billing address or something like that.

If someone registers their account on a different PS4, after changing their password, and the IP is in a different state or country than it was previously and then proceeds to charge hundreds of dollars of stuff, that should signal as being very high risk activity and Sony should put a hold on that account. Its not rocket science. Banks do it, and basically any other retailer does it.

The other way to handle it is to leave the risk of fraud on the publisher. ITunes, for example, will essentially null out a fraudulent transaction and just deduct it from the app owners payments, as if it never occurred. For this type of fraud nothing "really" changed hands, so there should not be an issue doing this.

Strong arming the consumer is the wrong way to go. I would chargeback Sony and sell my PS4, period, if this happened to me.

 

[kyser73]

This is as much about shitty consumer protection as it is anything else. I had a dodgy purchase made via a CC on PSN in the UK, contacted Mastercard who refunded me the money as soon as I'd completed the claim form and that was that, didn't hear anything more of it.

 

[Ennosuke]

#4theplayers

 

[SerodD]

Well Sony can hardly set the precedent of giving money back to your bank account. Otherwise:

Step 1. Get my friend to "hack" my account
Step 2. Buy loads of games on that account
Step 3. Complain and get sony to pay me money back into my bank account
Step 4. Recover my psn account
Step 5. Profit

Why wouldn't they also revoke the licences form said psn account?

Makes no sense to leave the bought games on the account you're refunding for purchasing said games.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Not surprised!

I lost games I bought when my account was hacked years ago and they wouldn't help me out either.

It wasn't a huge loss, but still.

 

[Jotaka]

lmao Where did I say it was Sony's fault? (rhetorical question, I already know you can't read)

I said the solution is simple: just refund the guy his money and revoke whatever licenses were bought with it. This problem gets fixed in 2 seconds and no one comes out with their money or products stolen.

Not really... because you can REPLACE the HDD... If you have a bunch of single player games in the old HDD and keep it OFFLINE you have free copies of the games.

 

[sturgboski]

It confuses me why two factor authentication is not utilized more often. Hell if I can use an authenticator for my gmail account, Guild Wars account and even WoW, why cant Valve, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo implement the same for their services. Further, why can't banks? Most everyone has apps for their financial institution.

 

[Vestal]

It confuses me why two factor authentication is not utilized more often. Hell if I can use an authenticator for my gmail account, Guild Wars account and even WoW, why cant Valve, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo implement the same for their services. Further, why can't banks? Most everyone has apps for their financial institution.

Both Valve and Microsoft have 2factor authentication.

 

[jcm]

Sony is, of course, under no obligation to do anything. They don't have to refund this guy or remove the stolen games from his account. Legally, Sony is totally fine here.

But. Think about it this way: if I'm the customer who just got boned here, and Sony refuses to do anything for me, then I'm out $600 or the cost of all the games on my PSN account, whichever is lower. All this for something that was, on some level, out of my hands. How likely am I to ever buy anything at all from PSN again? Probably never. I'd cut my losses, sell my PS4, maybe think about getting an Xbox One instead, because clearly Sony don't value my business enough to do what I think is the right thing, even if I don't have 100% incontrovertible proof that I'm not trying to scam them.

Think about how often this happens in different contexts. Amazon, for example, is often quite good about this sort of thing, even if you don't necessarily have proof of wrongdoing on their part. "Hey Amazon, I didn't get the thing you sent me in the mail, what's the deal?" Most of the time they send out a new one, no questions asked, and if the other product arrives in the meantime they'll even tell you to keep it if the cost of shipping it back is high enough. You could easily scam Amazon out of free products by just claiming everything was lost in the mail.

You know why Amazon does this? Because keeping you as a customer is worth more than the cost of making things right. And if you abuse that generosity by fraudulently claiming problems on a regular basis? Well, that's pretty easy to spot in a customer's history. Amazon aren't dummies; the tap of make-good offers shuts off eventually.

If this guy comes back every couple of months claiming someone hacked his account and stole a ton of stuff, then it makes sense for Sony to refuse to play ball. But that hasn't happened yet, and I think it's a lot more reasonable to suggest that Sony give him the benefit of the doubt this once and not automatically assume he's trying to scam them.

Not to mention that Sony already agrees that he's been defrauded; they're just arguing over how much compensation he's going to get.

This is very well-stated. The idea that it's good business for Sony to take a hard line here is just wrong.

 

[FairXchange]

Does Valve refund people who get hacked? MS? What's the industry standard protocol here?

 

[NotoriousPUG]

Well Sony can hardly set the precedent of giving money back to your bank account. Otherwise:

Step 1. Get my friend to "hack" my account
Step 2. Buy loads of games on that account
Step 3. Complain and get sony to pay me money back into my bank account
Step 4. Recover my psn account
Step 5. Profit

And have Sony deactivate the loads of games bought fraudulently?

 

[Zomba13]

I like how so many are assuming it's the end user at fault. I've always been pretty good with my online security, especially the stuff for the consoles (mainly because I let them auto log in and all that so they can stand to have stupid passwords). When my account was "hacked" it was not long after the whole PSN hack thing which in which Sony said no accounts were compromised and all that jazz. My PSN account was the only account to have anything happen to it (it had a unique password after all) and I hadn't used it to log in via a PC or something (I only did this afterwards when I was advised to check the Quriosity service to see if addition PS3s were linked).

Now, it is possible they got to my account through some other means. I might have logged in via a web browser years before, I might have used the same password on a throwaway account from years before etc but still, there were purchases on my account I did not make and did not download onto my PS3 (with which I had the serial number and mac address and all that info that ties that machine to my home internet which was the only place it had been used) and they refused to remove the licenses and refund me the money (and unlink the 4 or so addition PS3s that were added and not my own). That was all I wanted. Instead I was told tough luck and force to go over their heads with a chargeback from my bank.

I guess I expected too much on their end, like bveing able to see where it logged in from (ips and such) and being able to tie the accounts to specific consoles. I mean, I could have bought 4 PS3s and bought a bunch of DLC for games that had no trophy data on my account and a bunch of games and then link the account to 4 PS3s and then call up about it but that just seems unlikely.

Only other experience with hacking I've had was with a WoW account before I got the ipod touch (and then later android phone) authenticator. My account was stripped of all the gold and stuff. I contacted support and got my stuff rolled back in like 10 minutes or something. Obviously not the same as dealing with actual money but it's just the only other "hacking" that has happened to me (I did visit a bunch of WoW related wikis and guides and all that so probably got something from them that slipped in between scans).

Moral of the story: Two factor authentication should be the standard for everthing online. That way the only way your accounts get compromised is if the person has access to either your physical object (phone, donlge or whatever) or access to your email account (which would also need an app or dongle or whatever for access anyway).

 

[TheYanger]

Does Valve refund people who get hacked? MS? What's the industry standard protocol here?

Yes, yes, and not this. Even if it was this it would be wrong, people would just be calling out more than Sony on it.

Not really... because you can REPLACE the HDD... If you have a bunch of single player games in the old HDD and keep it OFFLINE you have free copies of the games.

You can do that anyway just by issuing a chargeback if you're REALLY interested in scamming Sony out of some videogames at the cost of your console being offline only. The notion that this potential abuse which already exists makes Sony's draconian practices here ok is actually ridiculous.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I will never put any financial account info on my PS account.

pretty much, and any other of these other services.

Sony probably doesn't even have $600.

wait till bluburn dude.

 

[Zyae]

These threads are always so sickening.

These are the kinds of threads that bring out the most loudest most obnoxious individuals. These people complaining have no one to blame but themselves. This is clearly not a Sony customer support issue. This is an individual issue. If I was customer support helping a user who was utilizing a service for the company I worked for with the claim, "I got hacked, so and so spent $600 using my card tied to my account, I want my money back", then I probably couldn't care less.

The fact that user is claiming they got "hacked" is the first flag. If you weren't hacked through the service my company is providing then it sure as hell isn't my problem. The compromise is usually done through other methods that Sony/PlayStation Network doesn't have any control over and is directly controlled by the user. If you can't practice basic security measures for your online person then you have no business being online. Not only that, but Sony encourages best practice when signing up:

Password Requirements

* Between 8 and 30 characters in length
* Must contain at least one letter and one number
* Cannot use repeating characters (e.g. aaa64135, 111bcxjk)
* Cannot match your Sign-In ID (e-mail address)
* Passwords are case sensitive

Tips for Stronger Passwords

* Do not use a word found in the dictionary
* Use a mixture of letters, numbers and special characters (e.g. h37@f3-2)
* Use a combination of uppercase and lowercase letters
* Use supported special characters (e.g. !, @, #, $, &)
* For a strong and easy to remember password, create a personal acronym
* Use a different password than your other online accounts

(Verbatim Sony Policy)

If said individual was so concerned about the money that was lost and thought for second, they would immediately raise a dispute with their bank. Last time I checked, Sony doesn't run your bank. Do you actually think Sony has some kind of fraud protection service running within PlayStation Network? For the most part, these charges probably don't even raise a flag because daily revenue on PSN is millions of dollars.

This isn't a policy that just Sony implements, but rather a general practice by any major online service provider including Microsoft and Nintendo.

This post is sickening and total victim blaming. These cases should be analyzed on a case to case basis. My friends account was hacked. The guy changed the password and charged his credit card. The account got banned, my friend got it back and tried to get his money back from the bank. Sony Permabanned him for doing so.

 

[Puruzi]

I dunno about other companies, but Valve gives your your money back when you get hacked. This is kinda fucked.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

That's even more reprehensible than only offering a $150 refund.

In the other thread I asked why $150 and I was told that was the max PSN wallet size in which case it would be Sony giving them $150 store credit. You're still stuck with $600 of games you don't want, no account for 6 months (activation limit used up) but hey $150 to spend on PSN; how about that (it is probably easier for customer support just to hand out credit like that than it is revoke the games, ban the other system and chargeback)

 

[foolishoptimist]

The reason for this is basically the whole "Primary Console doesn't need to sign in to play games".

The only way Sony gains the ability to guarantee killing the licenses and primary status of the account is to force a regular online check, ala Microsoft.

It does sound like Sony has crap ass tools on the Customer Service side, with no ability to remove a license from a users account, even in situations where Primary status hasn't been hacked.

But in this case, the only way to fix the inherent problem is to screw the rest their user base, and backtrack on one of their good policies.

 

[jcm]

The reason for this is basically the whole "Primary Console doesn't need to sign in to play games".

The only way Sony gains the ability to guarantee killing the licenses and primary status of the account is to force a regular online check, ala Microsoft.

It does sound like Sony has crap ass tools on the Customer Service side, with no ability to remove a license from a users account, even in situations where Primary status hasn't been hacked.

But in this case, the only way to fix the inherent problem is to screw the rest their user base, and backtrack on one of their good policies.

So live without the guarantee? The account with the stolen licenses is effectively banned from psn at that point. That should be good enough.

 

[Ocaso]

And yet the evidence of people creating threads like this at regular intervals would dictate that it's sensible rather than paranoid.

The people creating these threads are presumed to be victims, just as the people who report false charges to their credit card companies. Do you advocate consumers not use credit cards online because of the risk of your information being stolen by man in the middle attacks or keyloggers? Why not forego the web and just shop with cash at the store? As others have said, it's victim blaming that makes a myriad of unwarranted assumptions. Yes, you need to keep your account safe, and yes, Sony absolutely needs to protect itself from fraud. But this absurd policy of not refunding the victim and outright banning them if they try to get their money back because someone used their card fraudulently is definitely not the right way to go about it.

 

[Blackage]

All I want is 2-step verification Sony, it's not too much to ask. =/

 

[ninanuam]

While yes, from a PR and good CS stand point they should refund the guy, we seem to live in a world where personal responsibility is no longer a thing. People should know better than linking stuff with 1 password or service or email. While we can't be sure if this isa users fair or a csr issue, I'm more inclined to believe it's a user issue first

No we live in a world that is highly monitored and in which we have given up significant chunks of our privacy, not just to governments but to private business for them to make the purchasing their products easier. One of the benefits of such a system is 1, you can track fraud when it occurs in order to potentially punish people with nefarious intent and 2. if a customer is acting in good faith it is easily proved and they would be entitled to recompense.

I have had numerous breaches to my privacy and I've had my bank details stolen since the start of the internet age. I have not once had an issue where I did not receive a full refund of any lost funds. I've also had my CC company call me more than a few times when buying large purchases to make sure it was me doing the buying. Its nice in a weird big brother kinda way.

Actually the videogame industry is the only one I can think of that would try to turn this around into some kind of anti consumer bullshit and gamers would be the only ones to cry foul on the victim. This culture is fucked.

Lets be clear SONY are profiting from fraud in this instance.

 

[Avatar1]

This post is sickening and total victim blaming. These cases should be analyzed on a case to case basis. My friends account was hacked. The guy changed the password and charged his credit card. The account got banned, my friend got it back and tried to get his money back from the bank. Sony Permabanned him for doing so.

I'm sure your friend knows how he was hacked too and it had nothing to do with Sony. If I'm wrong,

reciepts.jpg

 

[hodgy100]

those jumping to conclusions that the victims are possible scammers and insinuating because others may have gamed the system genuine victims don't deserve a refund is absolutely disgusting. your priorities are in totally the wrong place.

 

[Effigenius]

Why wouldn't they also revoke the licences form said psn account?

Makes no sense to leave the bought games on the account you're refunding for purchasing said games.

Not only that but revoke all the licenses on that account, just the way they are going to do when they are hit with a bank chargeback.

 

[FLAguy954]

Reddit -> GAF -> Internet -> GAF

Exactly, I literally just seen the dude's post on Reddit.

Sony has some shitty fucking policies.

 

[dano1]

those jumping to conclusions that the victims are possible scammers and insinuating because others may have gamed the system genuine victims don't deserve a refund is absolutely disgusting. your priorities are in totally the wrong place.

Yeah because nobody ever tries to scam big companies....

 

[ATXAlchemy]

Serious question, GAF.

Does noone else have separate bank account/etc to protect themselves from stuff like this? I know some place don't accept debit cards, so there's that argument for credit card.

I use an entirely separate bank/debit card for online shopping/gaming/etc purposes for various reasons.

1. I have to put money in the bank myself (online transfer is disabled), so if I want to purchase stuff, it makes me sure that I DO want it. I'm a lazy guy, so chances are if I don't really want whatever I am looking at, I probably will just procrastinate until I forget about it. orz

2. Mine is a debit card, so if ever I get hacked, they'll never get more than what I have in my bank, which very rarely exceeds 200USD.

Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of being locked out of my own account (if hacked) and has inconveniences like getting "surprised-charged" before shipping even though they shouldn't while there's not enough money in the bank, but at least this lessens the impact of money being pulled from me.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

And I'm atill trying to get the 1 year auto steal subscription they took. Customer service is terrible and practically unreachable in the UK.

 

[hodgy100]

Yeah because nobody ever tries to scam big companies....

Because the victim is more likely to be a scammer than a victim?

 

[dan2026]

I would never in a million years keep my card information on my PS4.

Pre-paid cards/codes only.

It aint worth the risk.

 

[Saintguine]

Power to the player.

And cool, there's a lot of victim blaming here. For a forum that I thought was heavily against it, there sure is a lot of it.

 

[Brofist]

Yeah because nobody ever tries to scam big companies....

While true, there will always be those looking to scam, assuming your customer is a criminal is never good policy.

 

[Lothars]

Power to the player.

And cool, there's a lot of victim blaming here. For a forum that I thought was heavily against it, there sure is a lot of it.

There's also alot of whining in here that Sony is always the one to blame. Now they need to work with this guys bank and make sure he gets the money back and his account back but it's also his issue where it's on him to make sure his account is secure. either way there's blame on both sides.

 

[JP]

The people creating these threads are presumed to be victims, just as the people who report false charges to their credit card companies. Do you advocate consumers not use credit cards online because of the risk of your information being stolen by man in the middle attacks or keyloggers? Why not forego the web and just shop with cash at the store? As others have said, it's victim blaming that makes a myriad of unwarranted assumptions. Yes, you need to keep your account safe, and yes, Sony absolutely needs to protect itself from fraud. But this absurd policy of not refunding the victim and outright banning them if they try to get their money back because someone used their card fraudulently is definitely not the right way to go about it.

Nope, not said any of that.

 

[Odrion]

Sony won't refund my $60 that was taken by a bunch of hacks as well. But enough about The Order.

 

[_hekk05]

So was the guy hacked or was his console stolen, as stated by posters above? Because that is not a hack. Those are very different things.

If his console was stolen and he knows about it, why doesn't he go online and deactivate his ps4? Or does that not remove his abilith to purchase games?

I kind of like Sony's stance of allowing multiple accounts so I can enjoy NA prices and JP games. Don't want that to change. If that means inconvenience then so be it.

 

[Suzushiiro]

If Sony's tech people are even remotely competent they should be able to trace the purchases, figure out whether or not they appear to be fraudulent, and reverse the transactions if necessary. I'd imagine more high-profile cases like this happening will lead to that becoming the procedure here, but right now the customer service people are instructed to tell people to get fucked so that's what they do. Additionally, they should really implement some kind of two-factor authentication to make it more difficult for accounts to be compromised like this.

That said, banning accounts upon charges being reversed is completely reasonable and fair for Sony to do, since if they allow it for legitimately fraudulent transactions they're going to get a lot of people using it as a way to return digital purchases after they're done.

And yes, "hacks" like this are generally the result of users having easy-to-guess passwords or getting themselves infected with keyloggers, which is the equivalent of getting your car stolen because you always left the doors unlocked and they keys in the ignition. So a small amount of victim blaming isn't entirely out of line, but to extend that analogy this is like if the owner proceeded to get charged for the crime spree the thief went on with their car, which shows a pretty obvious problem with the way the law (SCEA) works.

 

[BriGuy]

That chargeback nonsense is the strongest case against the "all-digital future" I've heard so far. No entity should be able to effectively erase all the games I legitimately bought at their whim, especially not for something so trivial as exercising my consumer rights.

 

[Aureon]

By the way, please get this in the OP and modify the title, so we can skip on gamespot's usual scaremongering.

TL;DR, sony is investigating and the CR told him he'd get a full refund on his CC at the end of the investigation, if it'd go his way.

Still horrible customer service, but, eh, not quite as insane as portrayed.

 

[foolishoptimist]

That chargeback nonsense is the strongest case against the "all-digital future" I've heard so far. No entity should be able to effectively erase all the games I legitimately bought at their whim, especially not for something so trivial as exercising my consumer rights.

I don't know how Sony are getting sued over Killzone not being 1080 in every game mode, but not getting sued over that. It should be criminal.

I know I've spent more than $600 on digital purchases across all PS systems. There's no way I could accept having all that just wiped. But $600 is still quite a hit if I'm not getting anything for it, and it's unplanned.

 

[dano1]

While true, there will always be those looking to scam, assuming your customer is a criminal is never good policy.

The problem I have is this thread is bashing Sony without any evidence either way!!

 

[Necromanti]

By the way, please get this in the OP and modify the title, so we can skip on gamespot's usual scaremongering.

TL;DR, sony is investigating and the CR told him he'd get a full refund on his CC at the end of the investigation, if it'd go his way.

What's the source for that image? If the writer in question merely took the user's word for it and then ran with the story, then it seems weird that he'd upload documentation of the exchange. I wonder what the GS article's source was.

 

[Clear]

I don't know how Sony are getting sued over Killzone not being 1080 in every game mode, but not getting sued over that. It should be criminal.

I know I've spent more than $600 on digital purchases across all PS systems. There's no way I could accept having all that just wiped. But $600 is still quite a hit if I'm not getting anything for it, and it's unplanned.

As Aureon's post shows, and as any reasonable person would expect, there is an investigative period before any determination is made.

But as per usual for the internet, people overreact and we end up with how many? 3, 4 Simultaneous and equally premature threads of hand-wringing and Sony bashing.

 

[Doug Heffernan]

Disgusting.

 

[teiresias]

The problem I have is this thread is bashing Sony without any evidence either way!!

Evidence is rather inconsequential to the fact that even if a customer has malware or a key logger on their system (apparently some posters' hack du jours for blaming the victims), a second factor authentication protocol would help protect against even those. That second factor isn't even on Sony's radar is unacceptable in this day and age of internet security, particularly given the company's recent history.

 

[PopFisto]

Hmmmm, the first time my PS3 broke they replaced it, but the second time they wanted me to pay. It was one of those fat ones, so I just let it lay. The thing is, it died within a year from receiving it from them, so I felt they should fix it for free.

I mean you can't even provide a console that will stay working for a year?

I dunno, I recently had a problem on PSN, essentially, I mistakenly purchased stuff from my basket. I didn't dl any of it, and called up the reps to get a refund, and they laughed me off the call. Was my own fault, but would it kill you to be a bit helpful? Why always so cunty?

 

[dano1]

Evidence is rather inconsequential to the fact that even if a customer has malware or a key logger on their system (apparently some posters' hack du jours for blaming the victims), a second factor authentication protocol would help protect against even those. That second factor isn't even on Sony's radar is unacceptable in this day and age of internet security, particularly given the company's recent history.

Sony has over 100 million psn customers. Maybe if there was 100 of thies so called issues things wouldn't smell so bad...

 

[Joco]

I dunno, I recently had a problem on PSN, essentially, I mistakenly purchased stuff from my basket. I didn't dl any of it, and called up the reps to get a refund, and they laughed me off the call. Was my own fault, but would it kill you to be a bit helpful? Why always so cunty?

Yeah, it was your own damn fault. You should have bothered to check your cart in the first place.