Does anyone know what Ni No Kuni did "wrong" here? The cel graphics look very flat 3D and un-anime compared to GG Xrd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuallI8uFlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuallI8uFlI
Does anyone know what Ni No Kuni did "wrong" here? The cel graphics look very flat 3D and un-anime compared to GG Xrd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuallI8uFlI
I guess it means L5 needed more triangles than PS3/3DS could provide.The video explains how they did it in detail. It's actually quite complex. Each model used hundreds of bones to achieve the visual effects they wanted.
I guess it means L5 needed more triangles than PS3/3DS could provide.
Fun fact: The software they used, Softimage, was discontinued.
Yeah, it's been kind of disheartening, because Softimage was way ahead of Maya and Max in a lot of ways.Fun fact: The software they used, Softimage, was discontinued.
I'd say the main difference is the use of normal orientation. It gives ASW a ton of control over the way light affects their models. Nino Ku Ni uses a more classic approach, that usually generates a lot of small inconsistencies.Does anyone know what Ni No Kuni did "wrong" here? The cel graphics look very flat 3D and un-anime compared to GG Xrd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuallI8uFlI
Hats off to ASW for making the first 3D game that actually looks 2D! It ran like complete shit on PS3 but my mind was blown by the exaggerated animations and shadows
Hats off to ASW for making the first 3D game that actually looks 2D! It ran like complete shit on PS3 but my mind was blown by the exaggerated animations and shadows
The issue isn't maintaining a high density of high-frequency details across surfaces, it's maintaining cleanliness and clarity in how large-scale details are resolved. Detail textures solve a problem that doesn't even come up in this kind of art style.So I just watched the video and one thing he brings up was about the normal map. He says the studio didn't use them because they wanted to maintain a clean look and so a normal map (which is dependent on texture resolution) could cause artifacts.
It's understandable that because there was a PS3 version, they were concerned with texture limit. However, if it was strictly focused on just PS4, would that have changed the studio's position?
He seemed more concerned that it was in the close ups on the faces of the characters that the shading had to stay clean. Did they try or know about detail maps where the aim is to increase detail the closer you get to an object?
He seemed more concerned that it was in the close ups on the faces of the characters that the shading had to stay clean. Did they try or know about detail maps where the aim is to increase detail the closer you get to an object? .
Whenever you think "it shouldn't be that much work", you're falling prey to the dunning-kruger effect (ie "I'm not versed well enough in that domain to realize how much work it is"), especially since they do say in the video it took tons of effort.It shouldn't be that much work (relatively speaking) even doing it manually
Nah, relying on bigger maps is just short-term thinking. Using vertex data instead you have clean data, more compact, forever. And authoring the custom normals isn't any harder than authoring a normal map in the first place.So I just watched the video and one thing he brings up was about the normal map. He says the studio didn't use them because they wanted to maintain a clean look and so a normal map (which is dependent on texture resolution) could cause artifacts.
It's understandable that because there was a PS3 version, they were concerned with texture limit. However, if it was strictly focused on just PS4, would that have changed the studio's position?
It would make life more easier if they did find a working solution to using normal maps instead of having to manually tweek the vertex normals. Not only that but they would be able to do more with it by manipulating the normal maps in a shader or making their own custom maps.
The issue isn't maintaining a high density of high-frequency details across surfaces, it's maintaining cleanliness and clarity in how large-scale details are resolved. Detail textures solve a problem that doesn't even come up in this kind of art style.
Does anyone know what Ni No Kuni did "wrong" here? The cel graphics look very flat 3D and un-anime compared to GG Xrd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuallI8uFlI
I'm not sure what you're suggesting.A normal map doesn't have to be used for just noise. It can be used to correct/create better shading. Because there the artstyle isn't going for complexity, then the normal map should just be enough then.
Nah, relying on bigger maps is just short-term thinking. Using vertex data instead you have clean data, more compact, forever. And authoring the custom normals isn't any harder than authoring a normal map in the first place.
If that's actually an issue, it's more a tools issue than a method issue. For their purposes, in theory, I don't see why vertex normals should pose bigger authoring challenges than normal maps.The models they showed had 40,000 polygons so that's what had me worried about how much work must goes into adjusting every vertex normal.
The models they showed had 40,000 polygons so that's what had me worried about how much work must goes into adjusting every vertex normal.
In fact, doing it this way is significantly harder and labour intensive, especially for characters that need significant amounts of deform animations where they need to make multiple versions of each model altogether.No they can't. The amount of detail they put into the animation and look of these models isn't that much different than dealing with 2D. Each frame is as handcrafted as much as possible.
It doesn't matter that the 'secret' is out there when most developers don't care about going for this art style in the first place.
Yeah most of the industry doesn't care for stylized games that much, when it would actually be less resource exhaustive than their current efforts.
Yup, that, and Gator - I assume that's what they're using to transfer their normals. Although I swear I've seen a plug-in specifically developed to do that (transfering normals from one object to another) in XSI.It doesn't work like that,most of the time they use proxy objects that transfer their normals to the final model. That, and Softimage has excellent normal editing tools (one of the many reasons it will be mourned).
It doesn't matter that the 'secret' is out there when most developers don't care about going for this art style in the first place.
Doing what they did is very costly and would be comparable if not worse than their current efforts. Not to mention a lot of their tricks are not really applicable if you are not making something like a fighting game. What they've done isn't exactly novel either but a very interesting application of existing techniques motivated by targeting a very specific goal.Yeah most of the industry doesn't care for stylized games that much, when it would actually be less resource exhaustive than their current efforts.
The models they showed had 40,000 polygons so that's what had me worried about how much work must goes into adjusting every vertex normal.
Hopefully SFV DLC model is successful enough after release to convince Capcom that a Vampire Savior game using KI seasons model is something that can work for them.sörine;165123534 said:Capcom should just contract ASW for a Vampire IV or SF Zero 4.
It doesn't matter that the 'secret' is out there when most developers don't care about going for this art style in the first place.
Their pipeline is full of really smart tricks that can seem a bit time consuming during pre-production, but nothing that prevents them from using it for, say, an rpg or a anything else really.The technique results in a product that does not transfer well to any genre expect fixed camera fighting games as well.
Their pipeline is full of really smart tricks that can seem a bit time consuming during pre-production, but nothing that prevents them from using it for, say, an rpg or a anything else really.
On the contrary, the way they build their characters ensures a lot of consistency in the rendering without having to worry about the angle from which you look at them.
I don't think this is necessarily true. The technique can certainly be developed further and while the look that is indistinguishable to 2D animation might not transfer well if it can take you 90% of the way it might be enough for those other kinds of games.The technique results in a product that does not transfer well to any genre expect fixed camera fighting games as well.
the exact approach they used wouldn't transfer well, that's all he really said about it - but with workflow improvements, tools engineering and refining of the technique/theory there's no telling how far this might go. he doesn't strike me as an engineer, and while his initial creativity and lateral thinking might have been what made this possible in the first place it's up to tech people and engineers to refine and simplify the process in the future.Really? In the Q&A section the ArcSy employee said it wouldn't transfer over to other genres, specifically those with 3D movement.
I think he means that in a full 3d environment, where you can move your character or the camera around freely, you would have the impression that the lighting on the models feels a bit limited, or that the light doesn't impact the characters as much as in a game like Nino Ku Ni for example. But it's only a problem if that doesn't suit your artistic direction.Really? In the Q&A section the ArcSy employee said it wouldn't transfer over to other genres, specifically those with 3D movement.
that and for some types of games any kind of perfect 2d -3d is just not possible. for example a 3rd person game with free camera. 2d animation relies alot on view dependent volume deformations and stylized lighting that doesn't respect physics - to generalize that into something that is indistinguishable to 2d animation in a free camera environment seems impossible to me without tons of time consuming artist authored tricks. For many games though, I'd argue if they get the shading right and work hard on the animations it's enough to get it to a point where it works.I think he means that in a full 3d environment, where you can move your character or the camera around freely, you would have the impression that the lighting on the models feels a bit limited, or that the light doesn't impact the characters as much as in a game like Nino Ku Ni for example. But it's only a problem if that doesn't suit your artistic direction.
What I mean is that it's probably a question of artistic choices rather than technical issues. I might be wrong though, but I don't really see what would prevent a developer to use this pipeline on an rpg for example (other then requiring a lot of work).
No PC version so no.are there any screens of this game downsampled? aliasing is the only issue I have with the art style and I'd love to see how it looks without.
The technique results in a product that does not transfer well to any genre expect fixed camera fighting games as well.
I think he means that in a full 3d environment, where you can move your character or the camera around freely, you would have the impression that the lighting on the models feels a bit limited, or that the light doesn't impact the characters as much as in a game like Nino Ku Ni for example. But it's only a problem if that doesn't suit your artistic direction.
What I mean is that it's probably a question of artistic choices rather than technical issues. I might be wrong though, but I don't really see what would prevent a developer to use this pipeline on an rpg for example (other then requiring a lot of work).
Lighting itself is unlikely to be the problem, actually - their solution looks good under any angle. Animation is, however, as many deformations only make sense when viewed from the side or predefined camera angles. There's also other stuff which he didn't touch upon in the GDC presentation but did in the earlier 4gamer technical article: the models don't follow the standard laws of depth and perspective, and alterations are very 2d-specific (for example, each character has its own vanishing point).
I'd say the main difference is the use of normal orientation. It gives ASW a ton of control over the way light affects their models. Nino Ku Ni uses a more classic approach, that usually generates a lot of small inconsistencies.
Really? In the Q&A section the ArcSy employee said it wouldn't transfer over to other genres, specifically those with 3D movement.
its hard to say how much of a problem it is. he said during the talk that each character has their own set of lights(no global lighting) that are animated to get the right shadows and highlights.