Support NeoGAF

[Yopis]

I think Vanillaware might have a hit on their hands with all this publicity lately, its been bonkers. Fucking lol.

Wonder if the smear campaign with the gaming media will extend to review scores as well. Hope the game does well. Hell I hope something on the complete opposite side of the spectrum would do well. Just want gaming in general to do well. The art in Dragons Crown is great imo.

 

[Knux-Future]

Hey guys.

The artist in question did not design ANY of Gearbox's characters.

This thread is so stupid.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

Wonder the smear campaign with the gaming media will extend to review scores as well.

It will, and I can't wait to see who tries it.

 

[Metrotab]

No, i'm fairly sure actually censorship is far more problematic. An artist could care less if you claim moral superiority so long as they can still sell their wares.

Oh, definitely so, but from a perspective of respect for auteurship autocensorship spurred by public shaming is much more poisonous than 'mere' censorship to me. It's irrelevant though, it's problematic all the same.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

It isn't though.

But it is. It's an attempt to expand the term censorship to allow one to brand ones detractors as censors and thus degrade their arguments or criticism. Again, politicians love to do the same thing.

 

[Risette]

But it is. It's an attempt to expand the term censorship to allow one to brand ones detractors as censors and thus degrade their arguments or criticism. Again, politicians love to do the same thing.

No, it isn't. Botched comparisons with politics are not appropriate here.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Oh, definitely so, but from a perspective of respect for auteurship autocensorship spurred by public shaming is much more poisonous than 'mere' censorship to me.

Some of the greatest artists in history had to endure such things, and laughed all the way to the bank as a result.

 

[Devolution]

But that's also a bunch of BS. Criticism is not the same thing as censorship. Public shaming is not the same thing as censorship. this is a case where people are crying censorship because they do not like the criticism in question.

You see the same thing in politics. When someone says something stupid, and someone calls them out on it, they cry censorship, free speech, etc.

When people start to label something like this as sexist we've gone beyond mere criticism of a game into social ramifications and consequences territory. People can espouse their distaste for art all they want but there will be some backlash when you start positing this or that as sexist. That's why it's better to have, at your disposal, better examples of trends and characters within the industry that reinforce the insidious issue of sexualized characters in games.

In choosing the Sorceress to harp on as emblematic of sexism in gaming, those people have done no favors to us who want to discuss the issue seriously with some nuance. She's a big tittied character, so what? I see plenty of exaggerated figures in the game, it's helmed by one artist who has a penache for fantasy art caricatures. Not only this, the criticisms have been to levy personal attacks against Kamitani and those who enjoy his work.

There is critique which involves deconstructing art in its period, context, discussing artistic intent and whatever other relevant information exists vs flat out calling a character sexist, refusing to engage the people who think otherwise on their terms and acting as if their point of view is the moral high ground as a justification for condescending diatribes. The whole conversation hasn't been about critique for quite some time.

 

[Yopis]

When people start to label something like this as sexist we've gone beyond mere criticism of a game into social ramifications and consequences territory. People can espouse their distaste for art all they want but there will be some backlash when you start positing this or that as sexist. That's why it's better to have, at your disposal, better examples of trends and characters within the industry that reinforce the insidious issue of sexualized characters in games.

In choosing the Sorceress to harp on as emblematic of sexism in gaming, those people have done no favors to us who want to discuss the issue seriously with some nuance. She's a big tittied character, so what? I see plenty of exaggerated figures in the game, it's helmed by one artist who has a penache for fantasy art caricatures. Not only this, the criticisms have been to levy personal attacks against Kamitani and those who enjoy his work.

There is critique which involves deconstructing art in its period, context, discussing artistic intent and whatever other relevant information exists vs flat out calling a character sexist, refusing to engage the people who think otherwise on their terms and acting as if their point of view is the moral high ground as a justification for condescending diatribes. The whole conversation hasn't been about critique for quite some time.

Great post.

 

[The Lamp]

I mean he's right that the art style is garbage. Probably the worst art style I've seen in a game.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

When people start to label something like this as sexist we've gone beyond mere criticism of a game into social ramifications and consequences territory. People can espouse their distaste for art all they want but there will be some backlash when you start positing this or that as sexist. That's why it's better to have, at your disposal, better examples of trends and characters within the industry that reinforce the insidious issue of sexualized characters in games.

In choosing the Sorceress to harp on as emblematic of sexism in gaming, those people have done no favors to us who want to discuss the issue seriously with some nuance. She's a big tittied character, so what? I see plenty of exaggerated figures in the game, it's helmed by one artist who has a penache for fantasy art caricatures. Not only this, the criticisms have been to levy personal attacks against Kamitani and those who enjoy his work.

There is critique which involves deconstructing art in its period, context, discussing artistic intent and whatever other relevant information exists vs flat out calling a character sexist, refusing to engage the people who think otherwise on their terms and acting as if their point of view is the moral high ground as a justification for condescending diatribes. The whole conversation hasn't been about critique for quite some time.

True, but the same argument people are using against the criticism, that is calling them censors, is used every time this argument comes up. It's effectively the default defense for any sexed up artwork in a game.

In Dc's case, yeah, the bashing is way over the line, and it's obvious many have no idea what the rest of the designs look like, instead focusing on just this one. Expect the same thing with the amazon video once released.

DC just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Risette]

True, but the same argument people are using against the criticism, that is calling them censors, is used every time this argument comes up. It's effectively the default defense for any sexed up artwork in a game.

In Dc's case, yeah, the bashing is way over the line, and it's obvious many have no idea what the rest of the designs look like, instead focusing on just this one. Expect the same thing with the amazon video once released.

DC just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This thread is about Dragon's Crown. It is a valid concern in this context.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

This thread is about Dragon's Crown.

Yeah, and guess what? Any criticism of the art gets you branded as a censor by the arts defenders, same as every other game that gets brought up in this debate.

Say anything ill of the female game design and the defenders shout you down as a censor or cry free speech to shield them from criticism.

I love this game, but honestly the white knights are just as annoying as the bashers.

 

[Iorv3th]

No, i'm fairly sure actually censorship is far more problematic. An artist could care less if you claim moral superiority so long as they can still sell their wares.

So it's ok for people to put a stigma on the consumers of said product because? Trying to shame people into not buying it by saying the game is for "pedophiles" or "pre-teen boys" isn't any real discussion of the matter either and is a form of censorship when people choose to ignore the game so as to not be associated with those terms.

I don't enjoy the artstyle of many games, but I don't resort to name calling of those that enjoy it.

 

[Karsticles]

This. Also, I've seen some of the Amazon's animations that haven't been shown in videos yet, and believe me when I say people are going to lose their minds again when the Amazon trailer comes out.

How have you seen what others have not? Do you have secret info? :-O

 

[luxarific]

Everyone is allowed the right to their expression and I haven't seen a single, not one single solitary snowflake of a post asking for a ban, or even for a boycott. So why do people KEEP saying or implying that there is a want to censure Kamitani?

Personally, I don't think Kamitani's design of the Sorceress is very good. I think it's a fairly typical badly clothed, super busty with impossibly thin waist design that I've seen a hundred times before. Then the character art puts her in an extremely sexually suggestive position. Then the animations give her breasts an incredible amount of movement and attention whenever she does anything. I think it is aimed at teenage boys and is more of the same from an industry that has long been exclusionary to women.

It's not even as if anyone set out to attack Kamitani, he put himself out there with his ill thought retort to a Kotaku article that was shitty. Did anyone here even read that Kotaku article when it was posted? Let's be honest here because I know I sure ass hell didn't. Kamitani's incredibly stupid retort was then blown up by GAF. I highly doubt anyone would have seen it otherwise. So Kotaku had to reply, of course. Then we get to where we are today when it is a big subject and naturally people have something to say. Why exactly is that a big deal that people have opinions about this game?

Personally I'd prefer it to be targeted at Riot Games, who are a much larger corp which have shown consistently that their designs have room for very few depictions of females or minorities. But we'd probably get the same defence there too so why bother.

That's what gets me - people who think the design is sexist have expressly gone out of their way to say they aren't calling for censorship. Yet apparently we can't even say we think the depiction is sexist because that's somehow equivalent to censorship. It's funny actually, Tycho's post on this talked about "swaying and fainting". From what I've seen in all the threads about this, all of the swaying and fainting is coming from people who have hurt feelings because character art they like is being criticized.

 

[kaching]

But that's also a bunch of BS. Criticism is not the same thing as censorship. Public shaming is not the same thing as censorship. this is a case where people are crying censorship because they do not like the criticism in question.

ixix didn't say criticism is the same thing as censorship. But the form it takes is fairly important. Public shaming isn't required in order to be critical, it doesn't serve the purposes of providing critical feedback at all. It does serve the purpose of influencing how others regard the criticism though.

 

[Risette]

Yeah, and guess what? Any criticism of the art gets you branded as a censor by the arts defenders, same as every other game that gets brought up in this debate.

Say anything ill of the female game design and the defenders shout you down as a censor or cry free speech to shield them from criticism.

I love this game, but honestly the white knights are just as annoying as the bashers.

That doesn't matter. It is valid here. You'll never see the valid defenses constructed here when the argument is used poorly, anyways.

 

[Curufinwe]

No, i'm fairly sure actually censorship is far more problematic. An artist could care less if you claim moral superiority so long as they can still sell their wares.

They couldn't care less.

 

[Dusk Golem]

The bright side out of all of this is that it is bringing attention to the game. I had never heard of Dragon's Crown before all of this, now it's a day 1 for me and might buy for a couple friends.

 

[Devolution]

Yeah, and guess what? Any criticism of the art gets you branded as a censor by the arts defenders, same as every other game that gets brought up in this debate.

Say anything ill of the female game design and the defenders shout you down as a censor or cry free speech to shield them from criticism.

I love this game, but honestly the white knights are just as annoying as the bashers.

This isn't true. Plenty of people have remarked they don't like the style without insulting the people who do, labeling Kamitani as sexist or saying anyone who enjoys this must be 14. These aren't valid critiques and there has been obvious pushback over it.

That's what gets me - people who think the design is sexist have expressly gone out of their way to say they aren't calling for censorship. Yet apparently we can't even say we think the depiction is sexist because that's somehow equivalent to censorship. It's funny actually, Tycho's post on this talked about "swaying and fainting". From what I've seen in all the threads about this, all of the swaying and fainting is coming from people who have hurt feelings because character art they like is being criticized.

Time to be lazy...

When people start to label something like this as sexist we've gone beyond mere criticism of a game into social ramifications and consequences territory. People can espouse their distaste for art all they want but there will be some backlash when you start positing this or that as sexist. That's why it's better to have, at your disposal, better examples of trends and characters within the industry that reinforce the insidious issue of sexualized characters in games.

In choosing the Sorceress to harp on as emblematic of sexism in gaming, those people have done no favors to us who want to discuss the issue seriously with some nuance. She's a big tittied character, so what? I see plenty of exaggerated figures in the game, it's helmed by one artist who has a penache for fantasy art caricatures. Not only this, the criticisms have been to levy personal attacks against Kamitani and those who enjoy his work.

There is critique which involves deconstructing art in its period, context, discussing artistic intent and whatever other relevant information exists vs flat out calling a character sexist, refusing to engage the people who think otherwise on their terms and acting as if their point of view is the moral high ground as a justification for condescending diatribes. The whole conversation hasn't been about critique for quite some time.

 

[Shosai]

When people start to label something like this as sexist we've gone beyond mere criticism of a game into social ramifications and consequences territory. People can espouse their distaste for art all they want but there will be some backlash when you start positing this or that as sexist. That's why it's better to have, at your disposal, better examples of trends and characters within the industry that reinforce the insidious issue of sexualized characters in games.

In choosing the Sorceress to harp on as emblematic of sexism in gaming, those people have done no favors to us who want to discuss the issue seriously with some nuance. She's a big tittied character, so what? I see plenty of exaggerated figures in the game, it's helmed by one artist who has a penache for fantasy art caricatures. Not only this, the criticisms have been to levy personal attacks against Kamitani and those who enjoy his work.

There is critique which involves deconstructing art in its period, context, discussing artistic intent and whatever other relevant information exists vs flat out calling a character sexist, refusing to engage the people who think otherwise on their terms and acting as if their point of view is the moral high ground as a justification for condescending diatribes. The whole conversation hasn't been about critique for quite some time.

So if the mere existence of the Sorceress design can be shrugged off, why not the baseless criticisms as well? If you think Kotaku and a Gearbox artist have the ability to sway consensus through illogical and baseless critique, then I think you severely underestimate the average reader's ability to formulate their own opinions when viewing a given piece of art. Bad art has every right to exist, and this remains true for bad opinions of said art.

 

[ShinobiFist]

Don't worry guys, next year, it will be about Black people again. But at the same time, I don't mind the attention this topic is getting.Let's see how the industry moves forward with such debated topics, especially when it comes to women in this biz and minorities.

 

[Risette]

That's what gets me - people who think the design is sexist have expressly gone out of their way to say they aren't calling for censorship. Yet apparently we can't even say we think the depiction is sexist because that's somehow equivalent to censorship. It's funny actually, Tycho's post on this talked about "swaying and fainting". From what I've seen in all the threads about this, all of the swaying and fainting is coming from people who have hurt feelings because character art they like is being criticized.

Just because you say you aren't calling for it doesn't mean you actually aren't. Dog whistle tactics.

 

[QisTopTier]

Sure can't wait to give this 5th grader my money TWICE for the Vita and PS3 version. It would be nice if there was a collectors eddition. Hell you know what I think I'll go double dip on odin's sphere on psn right now. Oh yeah that's right Maramusa is coming out as well. Think I'll buy that too. Damn I sure love me some high quality 5th grader art.

Did you know George is so talented he helped make the D&D games when he was still inside someones balls? Kind of weird someone had a name picked out, but damn when you are a sperm that talented who can blame em!

 

[Devolution]

So if the mere existence of the Sorceress design can be shrugged off, why not the baseless criticisms as well? If you think Kotaku and a Gearbox artist have the ability to sway consensus through illogical and baseless critique, then I think you severely underestimate the average reader's ability to formulate their own opinions when viewing a given piece of art. Bad art has every right to exist, and this remains true for bad opinions of said art.

The people who write articles and create games should strive to create real and valid criticisms instead of stirring the pot. That's my problem. When you have people on forums creating better dialogues than the creators or article writers, it's depressing.

 

[luxarific]

Just because you say you aren't calling for it doesn't mean you actually aren't. Dog whistle tactics.

lol, yeah, right, you've found me out.

 

[Metrotab]

So if the mere existence of the Sorceress design can be shrugged off, why not the baseless criticisms as well? If you think Kotaku and a Gearbox artist have the ability to sway consensus through illogical and baseless critique, then I think you severely underestimate the average reader's ability to formulate their own opinions when viewing a given piece of art. Bad art has every right to exist, and this remains true for bad opinions of said art.

The problem is that Kotaku has set the tone for the debate in a horrendous way, insulting the art designer. This is not the way people should approach art.

 

[EVIL]

Woman has boobs, man is inspired by boobs, man draws boobs, other men and women appreciate drawn boobs. I don't see anything wrong here

 

[Risette]

lol, yeah, right, you've found me out.

I'm glad you admit it.

 

[Devolution]

The problem is that Kotaku has set the tone for the debate in a horrendous way, insulting the art designer. This is not the way people should approach art.

They've set the debate at the worst possible tone which is insults and projection. It's a sensitive issue that requires more substance than calling people misogynists or 14.

 

[RagingAvatar]

I'd love to see more variety in character design but I don't see why Dragon's Crown is wrong.
It's beautiful. Artistic.

You don't see me crying because I don't have the physique or facial features of every generic videogame / movie action hero.
I know women are poorly represented in general and that sucks.
I think that means that we should broaden our character designs in general and embrace the extremes that that brings.

 

[Bombless]

How have you seen what others have not? Do you have secret info? :-O

Check the Elf trailer thread for the Greater Demon gif. Look closely to what the demon is looking at. He knows what's up.

Also, I'm sure there are a LOT of people from the western videogame industry not liking Dragon's Crown. I'm not sure a post for every comment on it is useful, especially given how quickly it turns into the same pointless arguments (and low blows).

 

[Shosai]

The people who write articles and create games should strive to create real and valid criticisms instead of stirring the pot. That's my problem. When you have people on forums creating better dialogues than the creators or article writers, it's depressing.

Yes, and it's depressing when people on forums create better fanart and character designs than the professional artists.

Actually, no it's not, because creating a launchpad for enriching content that might not have otherwise been created by the community is commendable in itself. Usually.

Anyway, you're either of the opinion that bad art and writing can have an adverse influence on society (and should therefore be curtailed), or that it can all be simply ignored by the people who don't like it.

The problem is that Kotaku has set the tone for the debate in a horrendous way, insulting the art designer. This is not the way people should approach art.

It's (unfortunately?) pretty common to see video game writers insult the artists and developers when complaining about video games. The same is true for neoGAF. It would be nice if they wrote with the same amount of class as Roger Ebert, but in retrospect that guy also got pretty vicious when reviewing movies he hated. When it gets below a certain threshold, criticism becomes a piece of entertainment in itself.

 

[Devolution]

Yes, and it's depressing when people on forums create better fanart and character designs than the professional artists.

Actually, no it's not, because creating a launchpad for enriching content that might not have otherwise been created by the community is commendable in itself. Usually.

Anyway, you're either of the opinion that bad art and writing can have an adverse influence on society (and should therefore be curtailed), or that it can all be simply ignored by the people who don't like it.

This rebuttal doesn't even make sense.

 

[Ratrat]

Anyone else think this controversy WILL have repercussions on future vanilla ware/kamitani games? Someone suggested he may have gotten pressured to apologize after the picture and things blew up. I'm sure they care about how they're perceived everywhere after all. Sadly the people harping on aren't likely fans of the artist or vanillaware..

I don't care about the game at all but I can understand the fanbases frustration.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What a cunt; the post tells me that he really doesn't care about discussing it and just wants to be a big ol' troll. It's that much worse because Gearbox is not innocent of sexualization, as Borderlands proves. However, he seems to think that they don't do it "as bad" because characters' tits don't jiggle.

To be honest, I think it's worse when the sexualization is closer to reality, just like the PC in Borderlands. I look at the Witch and the Amazon, and I don't see them as realistic or sexual. They're far closer to "cartoony" and "lampooning". The BL character has cleavage because that's what action ladies have. I'd be a lot more impressed with the more realistically designed character if she didn't have cleavage at all. Conversely, I see the characters of Dragon's Crown and think "wow, she looks so much more identifiable." I GET the criticism, but not the personal attacks by some juvenile hypocrite.

 

[APF]

Public shaming this game is equally as problematic. Maybe even worse because it assumes some kind of moral superiority over the artwork.

Without hyperbole, actual censorship is about a million times worse than a bunch of people publicly saying they really really don't like something.

 

[QisTopTier]

Anyone else think this controversy WILL have repercussions on future vanilla ware/kamitani games? Someone suggested he may have gotten pressured to apologize after the picture and things blew up. I'm sure they care about how they're perceived everywhere after all. Sadly the people harping on aren't likely fans of the artist or vanillaware..

Nah, total opposite effect, game will get more sells than normal helping them with their next project

 

[J-Rock]

Just give all the males in the game a giant dick bulge in their pants and call it even.

 

[Giolon]

What a cunt; the post tells me that he really doesn't care about discussing it and just wants to be a big ol' troll. It's that much worse because Gearbox is not innocent of sexualization, as Borderlands proves. However, he seems to think that they don't do it "as bad" because characters' tits don't jiggle.

To be honest, I think it's worse when the sexualization is closer to reality, just like the PC in Borderlands. I look at the Witch and the Amazon, and I don't see them as realistic or sexual. They're far closer to "cartoony" and "lampooning". The BL character has cleavage because that's what action ladies have. I'd be a lot more impressed with the more realistically designed character if she didn't have cleavage at all. Conversely, I see the characters of Dragon's Crown and think "wow, she looks so much more identifiable." I GET the criticism, but not the personal attacks by some juvenile hypocrite.

The irony.

 

[Bombless]

What a cunt; the post tells me that he really doesn't care about discussing it and just wants to be a big ol' troll.

OP should really be updated with the fact the person IS A WOMAN.

 

[Cerity]

Anyone else think this controversy WILL have repercussions on future vanilla ware/kamitani games? Someone suggested he may have gotten pressured to apologize after the picture and things blew up. I'm sure they care about how they're perceived everywhere after all. Sadly the people harping on aren't likely fans of the artist or vanillaware..

Not really, this is for the par of japanese media. People are just blowing up about it now because kotaku started it. People who are likely to buy dragons crown were going to buy it anyway regardless of the press it gets. We've had plenty worse characters in gaming IMO.

 

[googleplex]

Hey guys.

The artist in question did not design ANY of Gearbox's characters.

This thread is stupid.

Doesn't matter. Going after this game as some example of all that wrong and sexist with gaming is ridiculous. There are some major issue dealing with both race and sex that the industry as a whole should tackle. But she and people like her trying to turn Dragons Crown into some lighting rod for Cheep shots instead of trying to have a REAL conversation about women roles and influence in the industry.

Also if she want her opinion and art critic of Dragon Crown artwork to be taken seriously. Perhaps she should leave the "lol's" out for her post. It also doesn't help that she compares a fantastic artist and 15 veteran of the industry to 5th grader.

P.S. own character art is in the same vane as the sorceress from Dragons Crown. So that make her a hypocrite on top of a mediocre artist.

 

[Winterfang]

LOL - perfect.

Seriously though - how can this tool bash Dragon's Crown?!? It looks amazing - and yeah, boobs are awesome, #dealwithit.

Get better informed before wasting topic space with bad opinions please.

 

[Karsticles]

Check the Elf trailer thread for the Greater Demon gif. Look closely to what the demon is looking at. He knows what's up.

Also, I'm sure there are a LOT of people from the western videogame industry not liking Dragon's Crown. I'm not sure a post for every comment on it is useful, especially given how quickly it turns into the same pointless arguments (and low blows).

The poster I quoted said:

I've seen some of the Amazon's animations that haven't been shown in videos yet,

I've seen all the videos. I thought maybe he/she got a hands-on and could answer a few questions about the game. ;-)

 

[Metrotab]

Kamitani pretty much said "I'm not sure if this is going to change my future art, but I'll think of these issues."

Without hyperbole, actual censorship is about a million times worse than a bunch of people publicly saying they really really don't like something.

I definitely agree. I was only talking from a specific perspective in that post, regarding an artist's vision of his work. But like I said, both are problematic.

 

[CambriaRising]

Get better informed before wasting topic space with bad opinions please.

Condescension is so much more productive.

Not agreeing with what the guy said, but come on.

 

[Tomat]

Doesn't matter. Going after this game as some example of all that wrong and sexist with gaming is ridiculous. There are some major issue dealing with both race and sex the the industry as a whole should tackle. But she and people like her trying to turn Dragons Crown into some lighting rod for Cheep shots instead of trying to have a REAL conversation about women roles and influence in the industry.

Also if she want her opinion and art critic of Dragon Crown artwork to be taken seriously. Perhaps she should leave the "lol's" out for her post. It also doesn't help that she compares a fantastic artist and 15 veteran of the industry to 5th grader.

P.S. own character art is in the same vane as the sorceress from Dragons Crown. So that make her a hypocrite on top of a mediocre artist.

She posted her opinion on a forum just like every other person on NeoGAF has. She didn't ask for all this attention. This fucking thread gave it to her.

I mean for fucks sake, the thread on Escapist is 5 whole pages. The entire internet cares more about their exchange than they do.

 

[QisTopTier]

Can't wait for all the complaints about the amazons jiggly butt. :lol