the what
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Gearbox Artist trashes Dragons Crown art style
- Thread starter ArtHands
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the what
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
When people say they hate the bouncy animations of her boobs I REALLY WISH I could just post jiggling boob gifs to get a point across. :lol
Of the playable characters, the elf is the only one I like. The environments and enemies are gorgeous though.
With your first point, the problem for me is that the comical exaggeration doesn't work. It goes beyond comical and dives straight into grotesque and it becomes very off putting. This is just a personal opinion of an artstyle, though, but I find that there is still an issue of objectification. Due to the high exaggerations, though, it comes off as pushing the objectifying imagery even more, even though I'm sure that isn't the artist's intention at all. However it just plays into all of the other imagery of women in the industry and I don't feel it does anything but push that message forward.
I understand that there should be room for varying artstyles, the problem is that all this one seems to be doing, in my eyes, is pile onto the already mountainous amount of examples of objectified women. Because of it, I just seem be focused on this negative reaction I have towards the artstyle and the imagery.
I think I understand what the deeper point you are trying to show me, though, about bringing up Dead or Alive. In DoA, everything *but* the women seems fairly plain and 'real'. But then you have these women that are basically walking sex appeal with bouncing titties and whatnot. With Dragon's Crown, the artstyle is very consistent and exaggerated at all points, therefore toning down how egregious the sorceress appears. The problem is that doesn't dissuade me from being off put by her.
edit: Ugh, I feel like I am just pushing aside any defense offered up with the same retort. I am not sure how exactly to integrate a necessity for various art styles and preventing any 'new' art style from pushing the same general message of objectification forward. Part of me says to be open and accept it, but I understand it as being negative and am unable to do so.
not psycho
Member
Can you explain what you mean by "objectification"? Are you not able to think of the sorceress as a powerful character equal to the other characters, because of what she looks like? You can't imagine her having a personality?
If so, I would consider that more a problem with society than the game. Meaning, society tells us "sexy" women are lesser in other ways, like being less intelligent or capable. And you are bringing that to the game.
But does the game send that message? Is the sorceress "lesser" in the game? Are the other characters given deeper back stories and personalities?
Maybe the problem here is society messing people up so the game upsets them, instead of the game messing people up and making them wreak havoc on society.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Ummm I'll just have to give you a major NO to that one. The girls are nice in DoA sure but LOL if you don't think the male characters got some of the same shit going for them I'll call you crazy.
There is more stuff for the male audience though overall
You know, you can dislike and not support something, but still recognize its right to exist. It shouldn't be a moral conundrum for you.
There's no way round it, it's objectifying but the fact that it's grotesque and not simply sexy should suggest it's done for entertainment and not perversion, even if you don't find it entertaining yourself. And as you rightly say, it doesn't (directly) help promote a female friendly gaming industry...but that can't be the responsibility of any one person. I guess it's good to call the game out, so other similar games aren't promoted and there isn't a trend - then again it's bringing the game publicity for that very reason.
There are limits to how much you can blame the one guy/publisher for any one game, he made it comical enough I think - and that's why you get so many defenders. We don't have a sex frenzy issue with games. We just lack games that cater towards woman or remember to include women. Best thing would be to get funding for games that are catered towards women from a rich feminist or some cause or something, otherwise it's hard to convince people to invest in a market that doesn't exist for an altruistic/equality cause, especially in this economy.
What someone said about promoting games that do have good female examples is exactly what we should be doing instead, but then again kotaku doesn't really care as much as it cares about hits. I didn't post on that thread, probably should have chimed in support there too but meh.
I agree with this as well - even though there is strong exaggeration of sexual features, it's up to you how much that affects what you think of the character. I guess it puts it on you to objectify her, but it makes it pretty hard not to
Maybe people use the term objectifying differently as well, you're right.
I have a lot of respect for Vanillaware. They're making gorgeous, 2D games and sticking to their guns. Nothing from Gearbox has even come close to the level of beauty and artistry in the various Vanillaware games.
I personally wish the sorceress was MORE sexy, because I don't find the design appealing. That said, I don't know that it's even intended for titilation, rather, it seems like every design in the game is ridiculously over the top in various ways. Instead people just cherry pick one thing out of it and focus on it and blow it out of proportion. In short, get a life.
Above is the work of an artist.
Above is you be the judge.
I personally wish the sorceress was MORE sexy, because I don't find the design appealing. That said, I don't know that it's even intended for titilation, rather, it seems like every design in the game is ridiculously over the top in various ways. Instead people just cherry pick one thing out of it and focus on it and blow it out of proportion. In short, get a life.
Above is the work of an artist.
Above is you be the judge.
not psycho
Member
Some people use different definitions of "objectifying." Some would fit, and some wouldn't.
A strict definition of "only being a sexual object and canceling out capabilities/personalities/etc" would not apply imo.
I can't wait to play Muramasa on my Vita. I played Odin Sphere on PS2, but I passed up that one. I don't plan on passing again.
For June it will serve as a nice warm up to Dragon's Crown in July, and I'll probably end up getting the Vita version for that, too.
I don't think I've even turned my Vita on since last year, it will be nice.
For June it will serve as a nice warm up to Dragon's Crown in July, and I'll probably end up getting the Vita version for that, too.
I don't think I've even turned my Vita on since last year, it will be nice.
You're right I edited in a bit late, but I agree - except that this is right up on that boundary, for some people anyway.
Devolution
Member
I have a lot of respect for Vanillaware. They're making gorgeous, 2D games and sticking to their guns. Nothing from Gearbox has even come close to the level of beauty and artistry in the various Vanillaware games.
I personally wish the sorceress was MORE sexy, because I don't find the design appealing. That said, I don't know that it's even intended for titilation, rather, it seems like every design in the game is ridiculously over the top in various ways. Instead people just cherry pick one thing out of it and focus on it and blow it out of proportion. In short, get a life.
Above is the work of an artist.
Above is you be the judge.
Dudes in armor, chick in a tank top and chaps on top of some shorts.
hmmmm
Muramasa isn't a great game, but I would challenge anyone to find a more beautiful game. It's visually stunning all the way around. Maybe Bastion, but I think part of its artfulness comes along with the narrator.
Yah I knew I'd think of the wrong DoA. I was thinking of the terrible volleyball bikini babe game and not the fighter for whatever reason.
Well, Odin Sphere wasn't very good, either.
Haha, you're right. Still, I can't say that I don't like Kamitani's style. I simply feel conflicted about it, as it seems to be a weird sort of pornography.
Your right it's not a great game it's a FANTASTIC game. Every Vita owner should buy it and every Wii owner should have already played it. I hope DC has some deeper RPG elements I enjoyed the cooking in Muramasa maybe we'll get that in DC as well.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I know some female friends that like the series and bought those games as well *shrug*
blitzcloud
Banned
but it has comicbook style. That's gotta count for something, even if they look like sidekick rejects.
Haha, ok. I'll disagree with you on it being fantastic, but it's certainly challenging if you turn off the auto-blocking. It's just not extraordinarily deep in the same way that Kane & Lynch Dog Days or Dark Souls is visceral.
I feel I am unable to think of it in that perspective because she is quite literally someone else's creation. Every facet of her character is something someone else deliberately crafted. She isn't real, she doesn't choose to act a certain way because it makes her feel good, someone else just decided "hey, we'll have her look like this and act like this". The sorceress is the effective extreme of what I consider "sex appeal", though because it is taken to an extreme it becomes grotesque to me and ironically loses any notion of 'sex appeal'. However, in the way she is portrayed, with boobs jiggling and 'sexy swaying', I simply see a character made for an audience to gaze upon. In that way, I consider the character 'objectified'. It's like the Super Girl boob window from DC comics. They went out of their way to have her, the character, explain why her tits are constantly exposed. Sure they made the character "aware" of it, but the purpose of the tits being exposed is still there.
She was created to be objectified, you're right, no doubt - that's what I should have said but that still puts the responsibility on you to do it, even if it leaves you little freedom to imagine otherwise.
Still, it's not encouraging women to be like this. It's still female friendly (not greatly so) but just as a guy with a steel dong would be a male friendly character. - (?)
With an appropriate age rating, I can't say I have too much of an issue with it, as long as it doesn't become a boring trend, which is the half the reason I like this to begin with, am I hipster?
Oogling is nothing to be too ashamed of You can't make me.
Still, it's not encouraging women to be like this. It's still female friendly (not greatly so) but just as a guy with a steel dong would be a male friendly character. - (?)
With an appropriate age rating, I can't say I have too much of an issue with it, as long as it doesn't become a boring trend, which is the half the reason I like this to begin with, am I hipster?
Oogling is nothing to be too ashamed of
You can't make me.Devolution
Member
Why is tit exposure on an individual character particularly a bad thing?
Doesn't matter. She's throwing rocks while perched high atop a comparatively untalented, hackish, aliens CMish glass house.
Her tag on the Escapist forums clearly states "Environmental Artist".
A fact which was unfortunately lost, and/or ignored, amongst many throughout the discourse of this thread.
No I think is does fucking matter cause people keep posting like she was a character designer and she doesnt get her own opinion cause of her employer's past work.
So I'd like to know, which you apparently dont so I dunno why you felt the need to respond.
airmangataosenai
Member
I really hope that this doesn't hurt the game's sales in the west. Where are all those industry guys who came to Sweet Billy's defense when everyone piled on to him "Unfairly"?
Jawmuncher
Member
Late Reply FTW
I remember Ivy getting flak mainly for the Japanese ads, that clearly advertised the games with her assets. However none of it was ever exploded in controversy quite like this which actually is kind of sad.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
And you you are posting on a forum where we usually make crude MS paint drawings, so that must mean you know nothing about art?
Devolution
Member
And even if she was these things are done by consensus and other people's input. Whatever character you see in a bigger studio whether it be movies or games is not the sole creation of one person. DC obviously is because it's one guy doing everything.
I don't think it is a flat out negative in all instances. I just feel this particular character, even though she may be an adept magician (necromancer if I read one of the images correctly?), has been crafted to be exaggerated sex appeal. Yes, it is in an environment where everything is exaggerated, but my initial point was that I don't think that being in this context excuses any criticism of how the artist chose to portray this character.
Edit: Again, I agree that this particular character and this particular game shouldn't be the sole witness on the stand for "problems concerning the portrayal of women in the industry", but I don't think it should be given a free pass, either. The specific character exists in its own context of utter exaggeration but it also exists in the context where every game around it also has particularly poor portrayals of women.
Thanks. She might not be exactly thrilled with Gearbox's female character art but I'm sure she also likes having a job. Though I'm sure she's making some nice money from her Dota sets (that fucking lion on her Mirana set needs serious work though)
Devolution
Member
But why is he unable to make her into a sexy witch? What is inherently wrong about that decision?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
DC is an oddity in the fact that its controversial art is the product of a single artist's style rather than focus testing and market pressures.
Does anybody who feels grossed out by the Sorceress feel the same way whenever viewing a voluptuous shaped woman with DD's? Im still trying to understand the disconnect.
(forgive me, Im a 20 year old dude)
Is it not the sexuality persay that seems to be the issue, but the fact that its a drawing created out of fantasy?
Im getting that vibe too. So at base level, lets say he made the witch for the pure sake of being sexy. Whats the issue then? The rest of the industry does the exact same thing and this is just the norm.
Its like the issue is that he made her too sexy!!
(forgive me, Im a 20 year old dude)
Is it not the sexuality persay that seems to be the issue, but the fact that its a drawing created out of fantasy?
Im getting that vibe too. So at base level, lets say he made the witch for the pure sake of being sexy. Whats the issue then? The rest of the industry does the exact same thing and this is just the norm.
Its like the issue is that he made her too sexy!!
I'm not attacking other forums telling them they're beneath me for all of their crude MS paintings.
Those are far beyond DDs.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
the gaming industry is still so juvenile. Does this kind of thing happen in the music or movie industry? Try that there and you'll lose your career like THAT *snap*
I think it's that she failed to acknowledge her own game's issues as well that is more the problem.
Actually I didn't read the OP all that well, she doesn't seem to be saying anything too bad anyway.
The game offers other characters anyway right.
A lot of people like to point out that her face is that of a 12 year old, which makes people feel uncomfortable when they are looking at her milk bags and child-bearing hips.
I am not one of those people, it doesn't bother me. I think it's some of the coolest character design I've seen in years and I've been a fan of his work since Odin Sphere.
But I certainly understand that sentiment.
I don't know. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with an artist choosing to create a character sexy. But the context that he chose to create her in (this particular context being the current state of the portrayal of women in video games) only reinforces the status quo. Changing that (that is the status quo) is incredibly important, but I understand that there should be room for things like Dragon's Crown to exist.
I am simply having an internal conflict of thoughts. Dragon's Crown and Kamitani's art style should be allowed to thrive in its own little niche (as it has), but I also feel it is not helping any overall attitude towards women in the industry. I know the ultimate goal should be simply more fairer representatives for women in video games rather than a constant condemnation of everything negative (edit: or viewed as negative), but a desire for better portrayals won't come unless it is shown that things should be better, I feel.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Playthings - Claire Hosking
Tits or GTFO - Jenn Frank
Two pretty interesting articles on the subject.
I think if the Sorceress' breasts were shaved down there would be no issue or outcry (plus the initial stone throwing (not referring to this thread btw)). Kind of like how racism seems funny when you realize people are hating each other over the concentration of melanin in skin cells, it seems somewhat ridiculous when people are arguing and shaming something over two malleable orbs of flesh.
Tits or GTFO - Jenn Frank
Two pretty interesting articles on the subject.
I think if the Sorceress' breasts were shaved down there would be no issue or outcry (plus the initial stone throwing (not referring to this thread btw)). Kind of like how racism seems funny when you realize people are hating each other over the concentration of melanin in skin cells, it seems somewhat ridiculous when people are arguing and shaming something over two malleable orbs of flesh.
TV and movies are nothing but sexy girls and sexy guys doing sexy stuff. For some reason it's only not okay if it's in a video game.
How about instead of parsing everything out, saying when it's okay to have a sexy female and when it's not okay, and trying to be the arbiters of taste -- We just, like, live and let live, and if you don't like a particular game -- like -- Don't buy it? These people would have a strong case if anyone was forced to buy the video games.