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Germany now expects up to 1.5 million migrants in 2015

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The simple answer is yes.

But at what cost? Honestly I find it funny as an American that for so many years people from around the world especially the other Western nations thought Americans were batshit crazy about immigration issues and now that Europe opened the floodgates conversations are starting to happen that Americans were thought extreme to have.

I don't know. It's going to be interesting to find out. I would hope people can get past the pointless arguing because what's done is done. Time to move on to figuring out how to best handle the situation.

If they are willing to work, I think huge part of them just want free money.
Even if that is the case, they will still be spending that money - in Germany. They're not going to burn it to keep warm.
 
Looks like Merkel's reign is about to end. Such a shame because I really liked her but opening your borders to a million migrants all at once is just batshit insane.
 
(...)

If they are willing to work, I think huge part of them just want free money.
That's not realistic, because the amount of money you get is really low.

Furthermore, employment office forces you to search for jobs.


Even if some of them came here for free money, they'll see that they can't afford anything with 400€, aside from really basic stuff.
 
Even if that is the case, they will still be spending that money - in Germany. They're not going to burn it to keep warm.

Ok, I know very little about economy, so serious question. How does it work? If it's acceptable that just not burning money is OK, then why work at all?
 
Maybe? Are there solid numbers on how much these people still owe elsewhere? In the meantime, they've got to eat.

http://migration.oxfordjournals.org/content/1/2/176.full

This is from before the current situation but the networks described in here are similar. Most of the refugees do not have several years worth of income in hard currency to make the trip. You have to pool together the money from a group or go into debt with the smugglers to finance the journey.
 
Ok, I know very little about economy, so serious question. How does it work? If it's acceptable that just not burning money is OK, then why work at all?

Let's take unemployment as an example. You've got somebody who isn't working, yet they are given money. They spend that money, pretty much immediately. They spend it at a local grocery store. Or they spend it on rent. The money didn't disappear. It went to a business or an individual who also needed it. Just because some of us may think "hey that guy didn't deserve to have that money!" doesn't mean that that money became bad. Somebody who you don't mind having it did eventually end up getting it.

Say we didn't give them the money. Well, then they're on the street. In the hundreds of thousands. Does that help businesses in any way? Does shaming these people economically seriously help get them on their feet, or are we just playing games with them? If they're able to afford the bare necessities then that makes them at the very least employable. That's what society should strive for - a population of people who can get a job.
 
Let's take unemployment as an example. You've got somebody who isn't working, yet they are given money. They spend that money, pretty much immediately. They spend it at a local grocery store. Or they spend it on rent. The money didn't disappear. It went to a business or an individual who also needed it. Just because some of us may think "hey that guy didn't deserve to have that money!" doesn't mean that that money became bad. Somebody who you don't mind having it did eventually end up getting it.

By your explanation maybe we should quit work altogether. Of course not, there have to be people producing goods and providing services. So by just taking money they are not contributing anything. What is acceptable ratio of working to nonworking people?
 
That's not realistic, because the amount of money you get is really low.

Furthermore, employment office forces you to search for jobs.


Even if some of them came here for free money, they'll see that they can't afford anything with 400€, aside from really basic stuff.
And cost of living is very high. Welfare in Germany gets you by somehow, but thats about it.
 
By your explanation maybe we should quit work altogether. Of course not, there have to be people producing goods and providing services. So by just taking money they are not contributing anything. What is acceptable ratio of working to nonworking people?

If you're fine with living at the absolute bare minimum that unemployment affords you, then great. The vast majority of people, however, do actually want to have more than that. They want a cool girlfriend or boyfriend, for instance. The kind who isn't going to stay with someone who has no ambition or goals. Point is, there are plenty of factors driving people to go out and get a job or create a business for themselves. Just because there exists a bottom level where you're barely not starving to death doesn't make that option preferable. But it would be absolutely deplorable if that didn't exist.
 
Let's take unemployment as an example. You've got somebody who isn't working, yet they are given money. They spend that money, pretty much immediately. They spend it at a local grocery store. Or they spend it on rent. The money didn't disappear. It went to a business or an individual who also needed it. Just because some of us may think "hey that guy didn't deserve to have that money!" doesn't mean that that money became bad. Somebody who you don't mind having it did eventually end up getting it.
Giving the population government money just to consume stuff is very poor way to spend it - you'd be much better off investing in very specific areas (like R&D, infrastructure, education etc.) in order to improve the general welfare.
When you just give money to people, yes the money is circulating somewhere in the economy, so it didn't just vanish off the face of the earth, but that money isn't doing much to contribute to the development of the society and leaves enormous strain on the public budget.

Of course, Germany has that generous social aid system and still functions very well, but probably a lot of that is due to the intrinsic nature of the population, ie. people know not to abuse the system. Those hundreds of thousands of people (if not millions) coming in and asking for social aid, will they work hard to settle into the society (linguistically, culturally etc.) and get employment as soon as possible, or will they just complain that they can't settle in and demand more money instead? Remains to be seen. German government is taking an enormous bet, one that most other governments are not willing to take.
 
It certainly won't be old hat in Germany when Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" will cost that country tens of billions of Euros. Ten billion Euro just this year. That means either higher taxes or less money to regular Germans (subsidized housing, health care, education, etc)

Tha

Ont figure of 1.5 million people will go up fast once they've been given asylum and their other family members are allowed to come. That's an influx of millions of people from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. You simply can't take in that many people from the middle east without huge repercussions for the rest of the country.

Only a fraction of those 1.5 million people will be given asylum.

And I'm very confident that Merkel will not allow immigration to seriously harm the german economy. That would be extremely uncharacteristic for her.

I'm not a fan of Merkel at all (never voted for her), but I can acknowledge that she's a very smart politician. I'm still fairly certain that her decisions regarding the current refugee crisis are part of a larger gambit that she cannot explain publicly without seeming likea big, selfish asshole.

This whole refugee crisis doesn't worry me nearly as much as the 2008 financial crisis, the european debt crisis or the war in Ukraine.

That's why I'm pretty sure that it won't nearly be the hottest topic come election time in 2017.

Merkel is not someone who would risk Germanys prosperity and especially her own chances of reelection for some desperate foreigners from the other end of the world. Not in a million years.
 
And cost of living is very high. Welfare in Germany gets you by somehow, but thats about it.

Yeah, no. As a student, I have even less than Hartz 4 and I can live relatively comfortable. Going out to eat, traveling (not camping!) quite a bit. You have to look for deals, then you can live pretty well.

(And now I live in Stockholm where the cost of living is much higher than in Germany and I still get along well - almost no alcohol though haha)
 
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fl...-ja-wohl-noch-ermitteln-duerfen-13879439.html

Extremely interesting article. The police in Braunschweig presented their findings concerning the increase in criminal activity due to the influx of asylum seekers:

- NO evidence for islamists coming in
- war refugees NOT involved in criminal activity
- criminal activity in particular from people from Georgia, former Yugoslavia, and North Africa

And I guess there it boils down to how most people here feel. War refugees that accept our laws are very welcome. People coming here for economic reasons only should not be awarded asylum.
 
Slovenian and Croatian police made an agreement that they will register migrants on the Dobova rail border crossing. Train with 1000 migrants will arrive from Croatia, then migrants will be registered on the station and taken with another train into migrant camps in Slovenia or even transported directly into Austria. We will see how this will work...

But I think that we will soon see huge bottlenecks on Austrian border. Speaking of that, Austrian minister of interior affairs said that they will 'build special technical measures' at largest migrant crossing near Spielfield/Špilje. What that means, I do not know, maybe fence around border crossing...

Oh and from almost 95.000 migrants that went through this month, around 65% are from Syria, others are from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran... also according to policemen working at registration centers, a lot of migrants do not have IDs with them, so they just register them with info they provide.
 
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fl...-ja-wohl-noch-ermitteln-duerfen-13879439.html

Extremely interesting article. The police in Braunschweig presented their findings concerning the increase in criminal activity due to the influx of asylum seekers:

- NO evidence for islamists coming in
- war refugees NOT involved in criminal activity
- criminal activity in particular from people from Georgia, former Yugoslavia, and North Africa

And I guess there it boils down to how most people here feel. War refugees that accept our laws are very welcome. People coming here for economic reasons only should not be awarded asylum.

There are countless articles, news reports, police reports, refugee help group reports and even reports from completely left leaning tv channels that disprove this almost on a weekly basis...
 
Looks like Merkel's reign is about to end. Such a shame because I really liked her but opening your borders to a million migrants all at once is just batshit insane.

She and her advisers thought they were doing the right thing, i think the problem all the Euro countries are having is explaining to their people how long the refugees are going to stay in their countries nor whether their stay is permanent. There's also the cost and taxes going up, then there's the housing and unemployment issues to deal with. Who gets a house or a job first? The refugee or a citizen?. Who's going to keep an eye on companies looking to exploit the situation with regards to cheap labor?

It all looks very complex to deal with especially when emotions are also running high and reasoning being an after thought.

I would hate to be a politician or a representative of any European government right now. They used to have an easier ride.
 
FULDA. Bereits am Freitag (23.10.) wurde eine junge Frau in der St.-Vinzenz Straße sexuell belästigt. Nach dem derzeitigen Stand der Ermittlungen der Polizei, war die 18-Jährige mit einer Begleiterin gegen 10.30 Uhr zu Fuß unterwegs. Plötzlich näherte sich den beiden Frauen ein 57-jähriger Syrier, der derzeit in der Nähe untergebracht ist. Er umarmte die Geschädigte und berührte sie an ihrer Oberbekleidung. Aufgrund der heftigen Gegenwehr der Heranwachsenden ließ der Täter von ihr ab und die beiden Frauen konnten flüchten. Die Polizei ermittelt wegen Nötigung und sexueller Belästigung.

Article from my hometown about a sexual agession from a 57 year old Syrian on an 18 year old girl in plain daylight..

I'm starting to feel uneasy about my wife going to work in the early morning :(
 
She and her advisers thought they were doing the right thing, i think the problem all the Euro countries are having is explaining to their people how long the refugees are going to stay in their countries nor whether their stay is permanent. There's also the cost and taxes going up, then there's the housing and unemployment issues to deal with. Who gets a house or a job first? The refugee or a citizen?. Who's going to keep an eye on companies looking to exploit the situation with regards to cheap labor?

It all looks very complex to deal with especially when emotions are also running high and reasoning being an after thought.

I would hate to be a politician or a representative of any European government right now. They used to have an easier ride.

Yep, this.

It's very complex and it's not surprising that there are citizens who get mad. These seem to be the 'biggest problems' for many people where I live:

- Housing
- Culture
- Healthcare
- social benefits / jobs / unemployment

Housing is a problem because there are wait lists for many of whom are looking to rent. How long is that waitlist? Well, depending on the city anywhere between to 3 to 21 years.
It's very difficult to say to a 'native citizen': "well, you may have been waiting for 15 years now, but this guy that has just arrived here will get the first house that becomes available". The only solution would be to build special housing areas for refugees, but that way, they remain isolated from the society that they are going to join... which is bad for integrating the refugees.

Culture is a problem because in many ways the Western culture differs from the Islamic culture (of course not all refugees have an Islamic background, but a large part currently does). Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom, democracy, alcohol usage, drugs usage, etc. - looking at the regions where refugees come from, these things weren't usually normal (or even forbidden).

Healthcare is a problem, because healthcare costs have already significantly risen over the past few years. There's a fear that they will continue to rise with all these new people that might require physical or, more likely, since they're from warzones, psychological healthcare.
Another problem: the monthly compulsory healthcare insurance bills and "own risk" for regular citizens continue to rise each year, while refugees do not have to pay anything.

Social benefits, jobs and unemployment are also problems. First of all, unemployment is already high. That means that there are people who fear that the regular citizens can't find jobs, because employers will choose for refugees which will work much harder for the minimum wage (as the minimum wage is already much higher than where they came from) - e.g. the "they are taking our jobs"-argument. The second fear regarding unemployment and jobs is that refugees won't be able to find jobs, meaning that they will have more trouble integrating... which brings us to social benefits.
Social benefits have already been reduced in the past few years. The fear exists that social benefits will be reduced even further i suddenly, a large number of people start relying on these social benefits.

--------------
Just explaining here what I believe are the biggest issues for a lot of people.

Personally, I feel like we should take care of the refugees. Integration must be a number one priority, though - make sure that refugees will accept (or at least tolerate) the Western culture (e.g. people having freedom of speech, religion, drinking alcohol, etc.).
If integration fails, it's likely that they'll remain unemployed and that they'll just cost the State tens of thousands each year per person.
 
Almost 103.000 migrants arrived to Slovenia in last 13 days. Less migrants arrived in past few days.
 
Read an article yesterday that claimed that even more refugees that expected are not even from Syria but from more or less save countries. Most just claim that they are from Syria when asked. Apparently there are camps of over 2.000 refugees where only like 100 people are from Syria, the rest is from Albania, Kosovo etc.

What a disgrace for the EU that this is happening... I feel sorry for the all the people that actually flee war only to be put in a bad light because of these fucks that sneak in with them...
 
Read an article yesterday that claimed that even more refugees that expected are not even from Syria but from more or less save countries. Most just claim that they are from Syria when asked. Apparently there are camps of over 2.000 refugees where only like 100 people are from Syria, the rest is from Albania, Kosovo etc.

What a disgrace for the EU that this is happening... I feel sorry for the all the people that actually flee war only to be put in a bad light because of these fucks that sneak in with them...

Yes there are a lot of freeloaders among them, just look at when the war in Syria started and how many fled to Europe back then and now when Merkel opened its doors.
 
All I know is, if I was in a shitty situation from a gone to shit country, I'd be trying hard to migrate to the European Dreamland as well.

Hell that's why I'm a Brit. Grandparents migrated from Turkey because Turkey was a poor country back then and the UK needed workers. We still would have lived a First World life in Turkey, but obviously earning British £ is way more valuable than Turkish ₺. For example I doubt I'd be as much of a gamer if I grew up in Turkey haha. That shit's expensive there!

So I can never judge these immigrant people. I can be mad at the situation that causes the instability and mad at "all the immigrants" in a generic kind of meaningless way, but I can't be mad at the individual people. I would be a hypocrite otherwise.
 
An interesting thing I read here in Holland is that refugees have problems when they try to pay in shops with 500 Euro bills which are generally not accepted. This bill is known as the 'Bin Laden' as everyone knows it exists but never see it. They are quite popular for unregulated money transactions as they hold a high value in a single bill, apparently in India you'll get a few percent more then 5 seperate 100 Euro bills in the street exchange. It's all very hard to reconcile with the image of desperate, destitute people fleeing for their lives.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it. The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy. Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion. Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.

Arriving in Italy or Greece and crossing the whole of Europe to finally come to Holland. Economical refugees they are. Stay away. If you're running from your life you don't cross the whole of Europe. Especially when you already arrived in a safe location. Thanks Merkel for destroying Europe.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it. The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy. Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion. Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.

While I certainly agree that the flow of migrants needs to be halted, this post really is all sorts of wrong.
- You say 'citizens don't want it', yet opinions are heavily divided on the issue in every single EU member state. People in some countries lean more towards closing borders/turning away people, others less so, but the division is universal.
- You say 'The EU wants it', but this is of course a statement for which no evidence exists. First of all, the EU is not a separate entity, but is controlled by the individual member states. Beyond that, as divided as opinions are between people within member states, so divided are opinions in member state governments. This of course is the reason for the lack of united action in solving this crisis, as there is so much division that it results in inaction.
- You say 'these left winged assholes', yet you say this as the resident of a country that has as its Prime Minister a centre-right politician, leading a coalition whose policies can best be described as centre-right, due to its focus on austerity and eagerness to privatize. The coalition policies are very clearly those of the VVD, with the Labour party conceding more and more on issues as the polls turn ever more against her.
- Holland is not a country.
- When elections come, and the Party for Freedom will likely surge to victory, her 'closing the borders' is something that won't happen. They will not achieve a parliamentary majority on their own, and in fact can not achieve a senatorial majority for a few more years. And of course again, to say it's what people want is wrong. It is what some people want. There's also of course the question of how effective closing the Dutch borders would even be, fencing off the entire country and heavily patrolling the waters is completely impossible in the practical sense. An EU-wide approach to curtail migration is far more likely to achieve actual, tangible results. Whilst at the same time not causing the severe economic harm that closed borders would to a country so dependent on trade.
 
There are countless articles, news reports, police reports, refugee help group reports and even reports from completely left leaning tv channels that disprove this almost on a weekly basis...

Yeah, so now it's good to actually have data which investigates into this instead of just having leftist groups say "everything's great, keep coming".

Meanwhile here in Sweden, a group of refugees refused to a leave the bus because the place they were supposed to live at was "too cold, too dark, and not close enough to a city". They demanded to be brought back to Germany.

One really gets the feeling thatsome of them did not flee because of war...
 
New study from ifo.. about half of all Syrian refugees have bad education... also calls again and again to get rid of minimum wage in Germany because it will be hard to integrate them into the job market otherwise....
These cunts actually think they are sneaky with this "getting rid of minimum wage" crap can you believe this?

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Haelfte_de...cht_ausgebildet-Neue_Ifo-Studie_-Story-479213

Capitalism has always been one of the biggest motivators of migrant acceptance, because workers from poorer countries are more economical than citizens. It's really easy to do something evil if you disguise it as humanitarianism.
 
Yeah, so now it's good to actually have data which investigates into this instead of just having leftist groups say "everything's great, keep coming".

Meanwhile here in Sweden, a group of refugees refused to a leave the bus because the place they were supposed to live at was "too cold, too dark, and not close enough to a city". They demanded to be brought back to Germany.

One really gets the feeling thatsome of them did not flee because of war...

This is one thing that pisses me the most out of the crisis. The complete ungreatfull attitude displayed, it spits in the face of all the refugess who have come to Europe and other countries in the past. I'm sure before the Syrian crisis war refugess were happy to get to places like Finland etc, even if it's cold.
 
This is one thing that pisses me the most out of the crisis. The complete ungreatfull attitude displayed, it spits in the face of all the refugess who have come to Europe and other countries in the past. I'm sure before the Syrian crisis war refugess were happy to get to places like Finland etc, even if it's cold.

Honestly, I don't think those are war refugees. At least I hope so.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it. The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy. Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion. Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.

Arriving in Italy or Greece and crossing the whole of Europe to finally come to Holland. Economical refugees they are. Stay away. If you're running from your life you don't cross the whole of Europe. Especially when you already arrived in a safe location. Thanks Merkel for destroying Europe.

Who do you think elected those people in the first place? They fell into parliament seats from the sky or what?

Keep dreaming with closing all borders.. Refugees are here to stay. I welcome them with open arms, as it makes me happy to 1. help people in need, 2. see right wing nutjobs get ulcers from all the worrying and hating.
 
Euro-GAF seems the polar opposite of America-GAF when it comes to the issue of immigration (
and much of economics in general
).
 
Who do you think elected those people in the first place? They fell into parliament seats from the sky or what?

Keep dreaming with closing all borders.. Refugees are here to stay. I welcome them with open arms, as it makes me happy to 1. help people in need, 2. see right wing nutjobs get ulcers from all the worrying and hating.

he actually believes all of them are refugees in need lmao.

also most government right now were elected before the refugees arrived in central europe. let's see where the next elections take us.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it.
Based on what facts? YOU don't want it, right?
The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy.
Ever wondered who elected those people?
Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion.
Reads to me like "fucking tired of the public opinion that tries to denounce my personal extreme right views."
Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come
Holland is an own country by now?
and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.
having people like you looked away behind "borders" would surely help and I'd support that.
Arriving in Italy or Greece and crossing the whole of Europe to finally come to Holland. Economical refugees they are.
Fun fact: a difference between stones and humans is that one type can move to adjust their living locations. The other type has to stay fixed to their position.
Stay away. If you're running from your life you don't cross the whole of Europe. Especially when you already arrived in a safe location.
Are you still living on the same spot that you were born in?
Thanks Merkel for destroying Europe.
I strongly support destroying any Europe which is build on your views.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it. The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy. Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion. Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.

Arriving in Italy or Greece and crossing the whole of Europe to finally come to Holland. Economical refugees they are. Stay away. If you're running from your life you don't cross the whole of Europe. Especially when you already arrived in a safe location. Thanks Merkel for destroying Europe.

Do you still feel like you're on vacation in Syria?
 
New study from ifo.. about half of all Syrian refugees have bad education... also calls again and again to get rid of minimum wage in Germany because it will be hard to integrate them into the job market otherwise....
These cunts actually think they are sneaky with this "getting rid of minimum wage" crap can you believe this?

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Haelfte_de...cht_ausgebildet-Neue_Ifo-Studie_-Story-479213

Sweden has experimented with generous wage subsidies for employers who hire immigrants, to no success. Is there any reason to think that reducing the minimum wages would be that much more helpful? As I understand it the problem comes down to the of the shrinking mid tier job market, which has lead to a situation where the low end is crowded with overqualified workers with whom immigrants simply can't compete.
It's also important to consider that any reduction in wages would have to be followed with an appropriate reduction in welfare which is terrible for immigrants.
 
This crisis is tearing Europe apart. Citizens dob't want it. The E.U wants it. How's that for democracy. Fucking tired of these left winged assholes that don't listen to the general public opinion. Cannot wait till next year when (in Holland) the elections come and finally the Freedom Party will close all borders. That's what the people want.

Arriving in Italy or Greece and crossing the whole of Europe to finally come to Holland. Economical refugees they are. Stay away. If you're running from your life you don't cross the whole of Europe. Especially when you already arrived in a safe location. Thanks Merkel for destroying Europe.
There we have the obligatory PVV guy, bleieving all the propaganda.

Believing we don't check if people are here for war or not, believing that putting people in shelters automatically means that they get a citizenship. Believing we can let the border countries handle evetything on their own.

And best of all: Believing that a couple of regugees destroy Europe.

Let's hope that racist ass of a Wilders gets prison time before the next elections.
 
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