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Giant Bombcast - Let's Talk About Memberships!

Neuromancer said:
I'm just giving you a reason people are annoyed. I know they don't owe anyone anything. I do think this has caused them a lot of ill-will, which in the end might be more negative to their bottom line. I think a lot of people will just stop listening because of all this.

No doubt, this will turn people off. And unless the WM people are out of their skulls, they were well aware that this would create backlash, and made the decision with those considerations at the front of their mind.

From the sounds of it, this is a we-don't-have-a-choice thing. They need money. Advertising isn't doing it. So either they can start doing things to the site that will make ads work (e.g., lots of short pages with constant clicks/throughs, pop ups, sponsors, banners, etc.). Or they can keep the site structured in the way that they prefer (and they believe that their users prefer) and begin charging for some content. Or they can go out of business.

For those of us who'd like shit for free (don't we all?) of course this sucks. But they're doing what they likely have very good reason to believe is in their self-interest. I'm sure they have professionals looking at the numbers.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
IGN's a very poor example with Insider, by the way. Just want to throw that out there. Insider ended up being scaled way back because the reaction was so bad, IGN ended up having to implement extremely intrusive advertising, and they had to be bailed out by News Corp in the end anyway.

If that's the rosy future people are hoping for for GB, more power to you. I have a feeling a lot of people are going to get Halverson'd if they pay out for full-year subscriptions, though.

Yeah, Insider is horrible. I've been paying for it since like 2001 for the rights to use their forums, since I was involved in a specific community there. However, other than that I get no value out of the $20 I shell out each year (I can't even keep the ads turned off). I really should cancel it, I feel like a dupe keeping myself subscribed...
 
lawblob said:
I think its because they know the Bombcast is their biggest draw. It's probably the motivating factor that would actually get people to poney up the cash.

Really strange considering the $50 fee which seems comparatively high. One would think the few that buy the membership at a high price would make up for the majority that don't?
 
Zalasta said:
Yeah, Insider is horrible. I've been paying for it since like 2001 for the rights to use their forums, since I was involved in a specific community there. However, other than that I get no value out of the $20 I shell out each year (I can't even keep the ads turned off). I really should cancel it, I feel like a dupe keeping myself subscribed...

Do you still get Filefront or is that part of something else? I remember subscribing and getting that and that Hitpoints thing (Lol)
 
lawblob said:
I think its because they know the Bombcast is their biggest draw. It's probably the motivating factor that would actually get people to poney up the cash. 720p video and no ads is only marginally useful for the average user, but the Bombcast is probably their most popular feature; hence, the best trigger to get people to pay.
Good the fuck luck with that.

I was fully prepared to subscribe, even at $50 a year. Now I'm considering abandoning the site out of principle. This is the most ludicrous fucking thing ever.
 
lawblob said:
I think its because they know the Bombcast is their biggest draw. It's probably the motivating factor that would actually get people to poney up the cash.
Considering the amount of times they said they need to justify things and the way they talk about how expensive the bombcast is I think it's more likely that they were told to make the bombcast one hour. So instead they just made the second hour a subscription incentive.
 
okay wow.... just read the updated OP. dumb move gimping the podcast like that.

you shouldn't take away features to force people into a subscription.
 
lawblob said:
I think its because they know the Bombcast is their biggest draw. It's probably the motivating factor that would actually get people to poney up the cash.


yup.

I think they got a bit nervous about how many people would pony up membership fees for the HD videos and mobile sites and, perhaps in a last minute gamble to get more people to sign up, decided to make the bombcast changes since it costs them a relatively large amount to produce yet provides no revenue.

but this kinda flies in the face of the comments Dave made in the last podcast about how they expect most subscribers will be people who just want to support the site and may not necessarily care about the extra goodies.

By doing this, they're turning off quite a few people who just want to support the site, splintering community discussion around the bombcast and fostering ill will with the community.

And I'm not even really upset about this. I just think it's a bit disappointing at worst.
 
Cartman86 said:
Really strange considering the $50 fee which seems comparatively high. One would think the few that buy the membership at a high price would make up for the majority that don't?

It's tough to say what their estimates are based on, but like I mentioned earlier, I suspect the steep fee is because GB is being leveraged to subsidize the unprofitable Whiskey sites.
 
TruthJunky said:
No doubt, this will turn people off. And unless the WM people are out of their fucking skulls, they were well aware that this would create backlash, and made the decision with those considerations at the front of their mind.

I feel like they don't really have a firm grasp on the community if they thought $50 a year for not that much new content and a full version of a formerly free thing would be received without that much backlash.

I dunno about everyone else, but I'd have been perfectly happy to pay if it had been something like $25 - $30 with none of this Bombcast chicanery.

So they either don't have a good feeling for their community or are in a lot of trouble financially and this is some Hail Mary pass.
 
Stumpokapow said:
So what you're saying is that I should have locked the thread ten pages ago and people shouldn't express their opinion on this change? If they like it, they should silently buy a membership. If they don't, they should silently stop using the site?

As far as I can tell, the trajectory of this conversation is:

<Dude A> I don't want to pay and I think going pay is a bad idea for them.
<Dude B> You have no access to their balance sheet so you don't know if it's a bad idea so you shouldn't post saying you think it's a bad idea

What are the appropriate or allowed responses to this thread?

Close the thread at 10 pages. Open up the rest of the pages for people with NeoGAF gold.
 
LCfiner said:
yup.

I think they got a bit nervous about how many people would pony up membership fees for the HD videos and mobile sites and, perhaps in a last minute gamble to get more people to sign up, decided to make the bombcast changes since it costs them a relatively large amount to produce yet provides no revenue.

but this kinda flies in the face of the comments Dave made in the last podcast about how they expect most subscribers will be people who just want to support the site and may not necessarily care about the extra goodies.

By doing this, they're turning off quite a few people who just want to support the site, splintering community discussion around the bombcast and fostering ill will with the community.

And I'm not even really upset about this. I just think it's a bit disappointing at worst.

DAVE: "Based purely on principle our fans will pay just to support us no matter the extras."

FAN: "You are splitting the bombcast up? I won't pay out of principle now!"
 
eznark said:
Close the thread at 10 pages. Open up the rest of the pages for people with NeoGAF gold.

But Eznark, think about it like this, with a 50 page thread, you're only paying like 3 cents per post. That's nothing! I would pay 3 cents to read one of your posts. It that's too much for you, maybe you should get a paper route!
 
TheHeretic said:
You alluded to this being a bad business decision, which is spurious because the only real alternative revenue stream is advertising, which they rely on already. Thats what I responded to, so I don't even know what this post really means.

I literally have no clue what the conversation is about at this point. A guy quoted another guy, I quoted him, he quoted me, I quoted him, you quoted me, I quoted you, you quoted me, and now I'm quoting you.

I disagree with trying to get users to pay for content. I don't use the content in question, so I don't give a shit about GiantBomb doing this. I download every GiantBomb Quick Look and don't use the site otherwise.

In terms of making money, there are several alternatives. Advertising, voluntary donation, or sales of non-content physical stuff (IE merchandise) all of which has generally worked well for a variety of sites over the years. You can use all three at once. You can also use all three and a pay-wall (SomethingAwful, for example, uses all four of those business models and does so very successfully). Historically advertising has been the most successful web model. There aren't really many great examples of pay-walls working. IGN is not a successful example.

Just because they have advertising now doesn't mean that they're doing it optimally. Maybe more advertising, maybe smarter advertising, maybe looking for a different demographic or different sponsor companies. Maybe their sales reps suck. I also think it's worth considering changing the kind of content. Maybe some kinds of content cost a lot of money to produce and cannot be monetized by advertising at all. Maybe they should do fewer podcasts. Maybe, like 1up was, they're paying too much in staffing and content production costs. Maybe, like many content sites, investors had initially assumed profitability after a certain number of years and now either that projection is looking less likely or the investors are in a worse position and want profitability sooner.

Obviously the people running the business end of Whiskey Media feel that this is the decision that is most likely to lead to success. Maybe they've correctly read their audience, maybe they haven't. Maybe this will lead simultaneously to decreased goodwill and increased revenue. No one saying this isn't a good idea financially is asserting that they know Whiskey Media's balance sheet. Maybe charging for content is a good idea but they've screwed up the specific price.

I don't think "Because they are doing it, it is a good business move" or "This is obviously a last resort, if they don't try this they won't exist anymore" are good arguments whenever any company does anything. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I don't think "If you don't like it, don't pay for it" is a good argument whenever any company does anything. This is a discussion forum, people are allowed to express their opinions, including that they're not going to pay or that they don't use GiantBomb and still disagree in principle with the change.

I think I've addressed all the angles of everyone who's replied to me.
 
Cartman86 said:
Do you still get Filefront or is that part of something else? I remember subscribing and getting that and that Hitpoints thing (Lol)

Beats me. I don't use Filefront at all. Like I said, I just pay them to post in the forums, which I don't really use much these days either.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Advertising has worked for the vast majority of all websites since the early days of the web.

Advertising is magical bucket money; it's a bubble, but everyone pretends it's not. The data on the efficacy of internet advertising is rather inconclusive, but hey, as long as it supports the internet I guess it's good for everyone?
 
Interfectum said:
okay wow.... just read the updated OP. dumb move gimping the podcast like that.

you shouldn't take away features to force people into a subscription.

They aren't really taking anything away. Just timing subscribers a "timed exclusive" so to speak. I agree it seems odd but I feel like they were forced to pick something that would entice subscribing. A lot of other sites would have exclusive quick looks or even endurance runs.
 
LCfiner said:
yup.

I think they got a bit nervous about how many people would pony up membership fees for the HD videos and mobile sites and, perhaps in a last minute gamble to get more people to sign up, decided to make the bombcast changes since it costs them a relatively large amount to produce yet provides no revenue.

Not picking on you specifically but I think this point is bullshit.

The bombcast may not make money and it may cost a bit to produce but it is the main reason why a lot of people even visit giantbomb.com. I'd consider it very good advertising and it's in Whiskey Media's best interest to get as many people listening to that podcast as possible.

Gimping the driving force behind Giantbomb.com is only going to hurt that site in the long run.

It's a very, very bad business move and I have no doubt they will back peddle like crazy on this in the coming months.
 
I AM JOHN! said:
Good the fuck luck with that.

I was fully prepared to subscribe, even at $50 a year. Now I'm considering abandoning the site out of principle. This is the most ludicrous fucking thing ever.
Again, what is this 'principle' people keep talking about? I have no problem with people not subscribing, but letting a website you like sink because of some vague high and mighty sentiment is bonkers.

Yes, I agree the way they're handling the bombcast is stupid, even considering how much time and effort they put into it, but acting like you're Rosa Parks unwilling to sit at the back of the no-pay bus is ridiculous.
 
lawblob said:
But Eznark, think about it like this, with a 50 page thread, you're only paying like 3 cents per post. That's nothing! I would pay 3 cents to read one of your posts. It that's too much for you, maybe you should get a paper route!

Like I said earlier, this isn't about the money at all. I was stoked to support them up until last night. As a bidness-man I just cannot support something so backward.
 
Jexhius said:
That's what sites like This American Life do all the time, and people pay up.

It works better then holding certain content to ransom.

You do realize that This American Life charges 99 cents a podcast to download all but the most recent episodes right? Something tells me if Giant Bomb said, "From now on the new podcast will be free for a week but then after that it will be a dollar until the end of time, along with every other episode in our archives" people would lose their shit a lot more than they are.

It's pretty obvious from things they've said and the fact that ads have only sporadically appeared on the site that the people at Whiskey Media have tried to have been ad supported, but have failed. They even talked about trying to get advertising for the Bombcast and failing. So they have two choices, they can lower their standards and try to get advertising by any means, no matter what advertisers demand or how intrusive it is (Which even then is no guarantee of working, ask IGN.com), or they can charge their fans. There's no real right or wrong answer, some people would rather probably have all the content for free and have a lot of ads on the site, others would rather pay to keep it the way it is.

Yes, by putting the Bombcast on a delay they're trying to take their most popular feature and use it to get people to pay for the site, but let me ask you this, would there be anything else they could possibly do to get people to pay? Because I'm thinking an HD and mobile upgrade ain't gonna cut it.
 
I wonder how much they could make just by putting a few ads into the Bombcast each week. (Or is this mentioned in the most recent podcast or something? I haven't listened to it.)
 
Will said:
You do realize that This American Life charges 99 cents a podcast to download all but the most recent episodes right? Something tells me if Giant Bomb said, "From now on the new podcast will be free for a week but then after that it will be a dollar until the end of time, along with every other episode in our archives" people would lose their shit a lot more than they are.

Uh no... that's actually the best move they could make. As long as I could listen to the most recent episode for free I'd gladly pay to dig in to their back catalog.
 
eznark said:
Like I said earlier, this isn't about the money at all. I was stoked to support them up until last night. As a bidness-man I just cannot support something so backward.

Yeah I was thinking like this 12 hours ago but then changed my mind. Maybe you will too.
 
I would gladly do what I can to support these guys in their venture, but $50 is a bit much for what's offered.
Who am I kidding? I waste that much on meaningless junk.
 
The same comments/questions are being posted over and over and over again. Read the goddamn thread.

supermackem said:
403 Forbidden

Errors on giantbomb for me.
Yes, we know, they're doing updates for the Live show + subscriptions.

ultron87 said:
I wonder how much they could make just by putting a few ads into the Bombcast each week.
They've stated that they cannot find buyers for ads.
 
Mkliner said:
Considering the amount of times they said they need to justify things and the way they talk about how expensive the bombcast is I think it's more likely that they were told to make the bombcast one hour. So instead they just made the second hour a subscription incentive.

This is pretty much word for word what the guys are implying the reason is, which is why it's being completely ignored by people who weren't around last night to witness most of the discussion. :lol
 
Aaron said:
Again, what is this 'principle' people keep talking about? I have no problem with people not subscribing, but letting a website you like sink because of some vague high and mighty sentiment is bonkers.

Yes, I agree the way they're handling the bombcast is stupid, even considering how much time and effort they put into it, but acting like you're Rosa Parks unwilling to sit at the back of the no-pay bus is ridiculous.
The principle is that they're hypocritical assholes, claiming that they won't take anything away from non-subscribers then announcing that "UNLESS WE GET 5,000 SUBSCRIBERS IN THE FIRST DAY WE'RE GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM NON-SUBSCRIBERS!" As a fan of the site since the pre-natal days and someone who has contributed hours of work to the Wiki, I don't fucking appreciate being held hostage like this.

There's no moralistic crusade here, I just simply don't want to support a site that holds me in contempt. Segmenting the Bombcast is exactly that.

Will said:
You do realize that This American Life charges 99 cents a podcast to download all but the most recent episodes right? Something tells me if Giant Bomb said, "From now on the new podcast will be free for a week but then after that it will be a dollar until the end of time, along with every other episode in our archives" people would lose their shit a lot more than they are.
I would have no problem with this if they did things the way TAL actually does it, where you can still stream episodes on the site for free.
 
Will said:
You do realize that This American Life charges 99 cents a podcast to download all but the most recent episodes right? Something tells me if Giant Bomb said, "From now on the new podcast will be free for a week but then after that it will be a dollar until the end of time, along with every other episode in our archives" people would lose their shit a lot more than they are.
But that's not what I was referring to, I was referring to TAL's donation drives.

Plus, how often do people care to listen to a week old podcast?

Will said:
Yes, by putting the Bombcast on a delay they're trying to take their most popular feature and use it to get people to pay for the site, but let me ask you this, would there be anything else they could possibly do to get people to pay? Because I'm thinking an HD and mobile upgrade ain't gonna cut it.
But lots and lots of people were willing to pay because they loved the site.

If you then tell users "hey, we're going to take this content you got free and then charge for part of it" then people will be pissed off.

That isn't hard to grasp.
 
ultron87 said:
I wonder how much they could make just by putting a few ads into the Bombcast each week. (Or is this mentioned in the most recent podcast or something? I haven't listened to it.)
It's almost impossible to get ads in podcasts. It only works for ones whose popularity is through the roof.
 
ultron87 said:
I wonder how much they could make just by putting a few ads into the Bombcast each week. (Or is this mentioned in the most recent podcast or something? I haven't listened to it.)

They said on the podcast that podcast advertising rates are pitifully low, which is something I have read about all podcasts, not just gaming podcasts.

Part of this also seems to stem from the old man backwardness of advertising. Seems to me that the kind of person who uses an iPod to download and consume podcasts is precisely the kind of person with discretionary money that advertisers want to reach. I find it bizarre that podcast advertising rates are so low because they don't know who actually listens. How is that any different from radio or TV viewers who mute the radio / TV during ads, or get a sandwich?
 
I'm all for them making mah-honies but damn! $50...

Also I don't get why they are splitting the podcast...

My support is in the balance tbh...I could swing either way...
 
Seeing some truly die-hard Giant Bomb fans in this thread turn against them solely based on the Bombcast splitting, tells me the ill will this decision created has to outweigh whatever subscriptions it ends up adding. These are the people that I would have expected to subscribe before anyone. I can't imagine they anticipated this level of backlash.
 
pivot said:
I just don't understand how a high profile website can be shut down for so long. Piss poor management.
They should at the very least have a page up in its stead explaining what is going on.
Piss poor indeed.
 
Felix Lighter said:
Seeing some truly die-hard Giant Bomb fans in this thread turn against them solely based on the Bombcast splitting, tells me the ill will this decision created has to outweigh whatever subscriptions it ends up adding. These are the people that I would have expected to subscribe before anyone. I can't imagine they anticipating this level of backlash.

Yup.

I'd gladly pay for old bombcasts, HD videos, etc but splitting up brand new bombcasts and forcing people into a subscription if they don't want to hear dated content is a bitch move.

I've gone from "I might subscribe in a few months to get some good HD content" to "no way in hell."
 
I AM JOHN! said:
The principle is that they're hypocritical assholes, claiming that they won't take anything away from non-subscribers then announcing that "UNLESS WE GET 5,000 SUBSCRIBERS IN THE FIRST DAY WE'RE GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM NON-SUBSCRIBERS!" As a fan of the site since the pre-natal days and someone who has contributed hours of work to the Wiki, I don't fucking appreciate being held hostage like this.

There's no moralistic crusade here, I just simply don't want to support a site that holds me in contempt. Segmenting the Bombcast is exactly that.
The thing you bolded wasn't their idea, it was some chat suggestion, so it wasn't their intention. Now even though they're releasing the second have free a week late, they are taking something away, but I listened to their explanation podcast, and thought that it was understandable why they were doing it. You're acting like they're doing it just to be dicks, when they're doing it to keep in business. Saying things like being 'held hostage' is lunacy. It's the sort of signs people bring to Glen Beck rallies. It speaks of a sense of entitlement out of touch with reality.
 
wow....this is disappointing. I was planning on buying a membership next year for the iphone app when it's time to renew my cell contract, but I was only willing to pay $25 max.
 
Man, I really wish it wasn't $50. $25-$30 would have been ideal and I would have paid that day one. $50 seems steep to me.

I'm torn about it because I love and want to support GiantBomb anyway that I can. I guess I'll just have to see how it goes and figure out if it's worth that much for it.
 
I AM JOHN! said:
The principle is that they're hypocritical assholes, claiming that they won't take anything away from non-subscribers then announcing that "UNLESS WE GET 5,000 SUBSCRIBERS IN THE FIRST DAY WE'RE GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM NON-SUBSCRIBERS!" As a fan of the site since the pre-natal days and someone who has contributed hours of work to the Wiki, I don't fucking appreciate being held hostage like this.

.


I get the feeling that was a very last minute reaction to overwhelmingly negative response. it was NOT part of the original podcast with Dave. i don't think it was planned out.

they may have wanted to elaborate more on that instead of doing it via twitter. as it stands, there's a lot of "holding hostage" imagery associated with it, which is distasteful and, I think, unintended by GB.
 
If you actually listen to the podcast where they explain what's going on, they say that all the other WM podcasts are 1 hour long and that Bombcast being 2 hours long has been an issue for a while now. They say that all the other podcasts keep things short but they don't want to.

It's pretty obvious they were told to cut the podcast in half by throwing everything non-essential away. Their idea of a solution was to keep the second half but make it a paid bonus. This was their idea to keep the fun bullshitting and other stuff that we enjoy so much. It's not extortion or a deliberate ploy to fuck people over, it's an excuse to keep shooting the shit when they're being told that it's actually costing them way more than it earns.
 
Aaron said:
The thing you bolded wasn't their idea, it was some chat suggestion, so it wasn't their intention. Now even though they're releasing the second have free a week late, they are taking something away, but I listened to their explanation podcast, and thought that it was understandable why they were doing it. You're acting like they're doing it just to be dicks, when they're doing it to keep in business. Saying things like being 'held hostage' is lunacy. It's the sort of signs people bring to Glen Beck rallies. It speaks of a sense of entitlement out of touch with reality.

To be fair, they fed that sense of entitlement themselves with that blog post by Dave essentially saying nothing would change for non-subs
 
LosDaddie said:
wow....this is disappointing. I was planning on buying a membership next year for the iphone app when it's time to renew my cell contract, but I was only willing to pay $25 max.

speaking of their iphone app, considering I was one of the douchebags that actually paid for that app it's pretty much got zero support since release. if this is how they treat their paying customers then good luck with all that. :lol
 
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