BladeWorker
Member
If you cheat, you betray trust. You betray trust, you may never get it back.otake said:
Mostly because you don't deserve to be trusted.
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Mostly because you don't deserve to be trusted.
BladeWorker
Member
He already has. And by lying about it, it's not a brief moment of infidelity - it's an on-going, persistent betrayal.Odrion said:
a similar amount succeed in spite of it? No. Infidelity is one of the biggest killers of relationships. If you got the mindset to cheat on a girl and end up doing it more than once, then own up to it like any other mistake.otake said:
And since when does being against cheating = white knighting? Really dude?
1) Yeah, it is. Its a childish reaction. No way around it.Odrion said:
2) So turn the tables, you'd like to know if your gf of the last 5 years was throwing her pussy around every time you got mad at her for not paying the bills on time right? What if she just told you that she was "overcome with emotion and would never do anything to hurt what you both have"? What if you would've forgiven her if it were only a one time thing, but then you discover that she did it yesterday? What if you then found out that she'd do it as often as she could if only you didn't know?
Moundir&Tony>you
Member
Lots of interpretation and jumps to conclusions in spite of the lack of details , just what I expected :lol
Let me get some popcorn guys .
Let me get some popcorn guys .
BladeWorker
Member
Spoken like someone who's never been cheated.Odrion said:
He never said he would constantly do it if she would never find out.
But answering this fallacy with my emotional response wouldn't validate your point no more than asking someone "if someone raped and murdered your daughter, wouldn't you want vengeance?" would validate the death penalty.
this thread is about helping people get a girlfriend.Moundir&Tony>you said:
why the hell would you think any of us are currently cheating on our girlfriends in the first place?
as a person who has gotten cheated on, and after knowing people who got cheated on, you're scum.
you know you're girlfriend would dump you. that's why you lie and hide it.
you think i'm going to treat you with a nice tone when you do what you do to someone who trusts you?
you supplied the info. there's no interpretations.
BladeWorker
Member
So you think that lying to someone you love, after having put them at risk, after betraying their trust, after breaking a commitment, is okay?otake said:
It's not okay. Lying about infidelity is never okay.
also, to answer earlier
But answering this fallacy with my emotional response (which is what you're trying to do) wouldn't validate your point no more than asking someone "if someone raped and murdered your daughter, wouldn't you want vengeance?" would validate the death penalty (but seeing your black and white attitude displayed in this topic I wouldn't be surprised if you disagree about this.)
BladeWorker said:
I think people have this rationale:
Lie:
-S.O. stays happy
-I get to keep on cheating
-No divorce hell
Truth:
-S.O. unhappy
-I don't get to keep on cheating
-Possible divorce hell
Sure moral outrage moral outrage etc, but it makes some logical sense, provided you don't get caught. People aren't inherently moral, they just respond to norms and incentives.
BladeWorker
Member
So, for the sake of argument, would you want to know if, after every big fight you two had, your girlfriend went out and cheated on you, and then covered it up intentionally, in the hopes that you would never find out?Odrion said:
And, if you did find out, despite your girlfriend's efforts, what would you do about it?
I'm hardly taking it to a level of "if your wife was raped". This is a common situation within relationships that applies to just about everyone.Odrion said:
It is black and white. Don't cheat. Own up to your mistakes if you make them. Be honest, because thats how healthy relationships work. If you think that its okay just because someone didn't find out, then you living a lie and playing yourself like everything is all good is just as bad if not worse. It certainly ends up being worse in the long run. I'm confused as to how anyone can think that cheating is somehow excusable 'under the right circumstances'.
Read what you just quoted.BladeWorker said:
Also, I have a huge mound of homework to do. So I'm just going to spit out a series of points and be on my way.
- Nothing is black and white.
- Cheating IS wrong.
- Everyone makes mistakes (or "does something regretful" if you were going to respond to this as "so a girl just accidentally fell on his dick?")
- Everyone just wants to be happy.
- Something c/p'd from an article about what our perception/illusion of truth and reality really is. From Socrates or whoever the fuck.
- Emotions don't equal logic.
What isn't black and white?otake said:
If you cheat, you've betrayed the trust and respect of the person that you're with. Its plain and simple. You don't get to say "oh, I cheated because she made mad" - that just makes you childish. "Well she cheated too" - grow the fuck up and move on. "Well, one thing led to another and...." - you did exactly what you wanted to do, own up to it.
You give me an example of when cheating is okay.
BladeWorker
Member
I agree that people aren't inherently moral, but:grumble said:
-Relationships aren't all game theory. Where you are dealing in the realm of emotions, rational thought often takes a backseat.
-Sooner or later, the SO will suspect, if not find out entirely.
-By cheating and not informing your partner, you have taken away his or her ability to make fully informed decisions about their sexual health.
IMO, the biggest attraction to being in a relationship is sharing a life together. As soon as that life together is compromised by cheating with a third party, it's not a relationship between two people who care about each other. It's a relationship between one person who cares, a second who cares only when it's convenient, and a third party who, knowingly or unknowingly, is contributing to a betrayal of trust.
BladeWorker
Member
I have, the question still stands.Odrion said:
A Link to the Past
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Moundir&Tony>you said:
Well, assuming that she would not appreciate you cheating, just break up with her. She probably doesn't want to be with someone who cannot keep faithful to her.
BladeWorker
Member
Your thinly veiled insults do not help your position.Odrion said:
I'm asking what you would do, not for you to make my point for me. I don't care if it's a rational or emotional response, both are valid.
This contradicts everything you said.Odrion said:
In a relationship, everyone makes decisions in their socialized perception, which includes emotions.
Emotions are key in relationships.
Relationships aren't a damn court case that need non emotional decisions. People voting in court do not decide on if you should break up with someone.
You decide if you should break up based on how you were socialized and how your emotions are effecting you over a period of time.
If you stay despite being hurt and unhappy, because unemotional people think it'd better on a forum, that's fucking retarded.
Most people are going to be too unhappy staying with someone who cheats, think they will keep on, and has made precautions the whole relationship.
Some might forgive them using your 0.1% data depending upon how much it hurts their trust.
I was being vague there, but I think your response proves my point anyways.
I'll relate it to the death penalty idea.
Logically I'd say the death penalty is barbaric and turns the justice system's purpose into vengeance instead of rehabilitation.
Emotionally if someone kidnapped, raped, and murdered my daughter yesterday, and if someone asked that I wanted vengeance for this guy's actions. I'd probably be daydreaming of caving the rapist-murder's skull in with a wrench.
I'll relate it to the death penalty idea.
Logically I'd say the death penalty is barbaric and turns the justice system's purpose into vengeance instead of rehabilitation.
Emotionally if someone kidnapped, raped, and murdered my daughter yesterday, and if someone asked that I wanted vengeance for this guy's actions. I'd probably be daydreaming of caving the rapist-murder's skull in with a wrench.
This is fucking retarded.Odrion said:
You do not disregard emotions when you make decisions on if they want to break up with someone. Your damn emotions are the most important part of a relationship.
"derp depsite being heartbroken i'm going to stay with you because it was .1% cheating derpa derp"
You do when you're on a trial for the friggin death penalty.
Where the hell did you get the idea that what you just said is logical? :lol Granted it may be true, but it can also be argued that once society (a jury of one's peers) decides that someone is beyond rehabilitation, they aren't worth keeping in prisons or hospitals or out in public and they are disposed of. That's the logical reasoning behind the death penalty. Yours is clearly the emotional one.Odrion said:
Edit: and he isn't really missing the point. There's no excuse for cheating if you are in a mutually agreed upon exclusive relationship. If the cheater actually cared about the other person's feelings in the first place, they wouldn't have cheated.
BladeWorker
Member
I see your point but posit: There are some instances in which people who aren't involved in a relationship are better equipped to referee than those who are involved, though. Spousal abuse being one.DeathNote said:
Emotional decisions are part of what make the relationship world go 'round, but lest we forget that emotions can cloud judgement.
BladeWorker
Member
This, for me, is the bottom line.Jayge said:
DeathNote said:
'This guy raped a murdered a little girl!' says the prosecution.
THE DEATH PENALTY / FOREVER IN PRISON! says the jury.
The evidence can be inadequate but it's a standard knee-jerk reaction. There is clearly an element of emotion there.
There's emotion in everything we do. We are not a logical species, which is a great failing of ours and also our reason for living.
There isn't a good moral justification for cheating, no one is arguing that it's an ideal scenario. Sometimes it does happen, and there are reasons why it happens. I know a woman who cheated on her husband because he was sexually cold after she had kids. Was what she did right? No. What what she did understandable? Yes. She needed sexual release, but she could not get it from him and he was not open to the idea of her getting it from others. She valued the emotional, economic and social relationship, and wanted to stay together for her kids.
BladeWorker
Member
Yes, let's. This talk of judges and juries and the death penalty is making my eyes hurt.Odrion said:
Situation as I understand it:
-Relationship that is exclusive (based on individual describing his extra-relationshippy actions as "cheating")
-Cheats on SO after big fight
-Cheats on SO again after another big fight
-Takes steps to conceal his cheating from SO
If I'm the SO, I will eventually find out. I would end the relationship. And here's why:
-Cheating as a response to a fight in a relationship demonstrates a lack of maturity that I could not live with
-Cheating repeatedly demonstrates a lack of willingness to learn more appropriate responses to a fight in a relationship
-Lying about it and trying to conceal your cheating ways demonstrates you want to have your cake and eat it too, without regard for my feelings or my sexual and emotional health.
-By seeking another's sexual comfort in a time of stress, you've betrayed our bond, on multiple occasions, and I am not confident that I can trust you any longer.
IMO, there are degrees of cheat and betrayal - the response above reflects this singular case alone.
It doesn't matter if someone decides to break up on the spot because of intense emotion, they can get back together 3 hours later. It matters if you kill or find someone guilty.
Comparing these is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on GAF in an argument.
In the end, the knowledge of the activity is embedded in cheating victims mind. It either fucks with your ability to be intimate again, your long term emotions, or not.
Comparing these is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on GAF in an argument.
In the end, the knowledge of the activity is embedded in cheating victims mind. It either fucks with your ability to be intimate again, your long term emotions, or not.
since when a jury was involved, or a court case? this is stupid. If you keep thinking that I was directly comparing the two ("LOVE IS A COURTROOM!" What?), then yes you did miss the point. You missed it, you tried to swing your hand at it like some disoriented gorilla on a skyscraper, but you still missed it. (except grumble, I think he knew where I was going.)
Turning the tables back on you guys. What would you do in this situation with your girlfriend?
DeathNote already validated my point in this situation. If they have a fight, she stomps out angry, gets drunk and sleeps with someone else (isn't this a textbook situation?) The next day she comes to her senses and realizes what she done. What should she do? Even if it was a regretful decision she made. He would no longer trust her, probably would kill the relationship right there. This is a five year relationship. She invested a large chunk of her life with him, and obviously sees a future. Telling him would ruin both of their lives and her reputation for a while.
So she keeps it a secret.
They marry years later, have kids, have grandkids, DeathNote dies a happy man. Sure he doesn't know the truth. But does any of us? What we perceive as "truth" and "reality" is only what we know and what we think we know.
Is telling someone the truth, that you cheated on them, really moral? Even if it potentially hurts and destroys lives? What constitutes it as moral? You guys thinking that it is?
Turning the tables back on you guys. What would you do in this situation with your girlfriend?
DeathNote already validated my point in this situation. If they have a fight, she stomps out angry, gets drunk and sleeps with someone else (isn't this a textbook situation?) The next day she comes to her senses and realizes what she done. What should she do? Even if it was a regretful decision she made. He would no longer trust her, probably would kill the relationship right there. This is a five year relationship. She invested a large chunk of her life with him, and obviously sees a future. Telling him would ruin both of their lives and her reputation for a while.
So she keeps it a secret.
They marry years later, have kids, have grandkids, DeathNote dies a happy man. Sure he doesn't know the truth. But does any of us? What we perceive as "truth" and "reality" is only what we know and what we think we know.
Is telling someone the truth, that you cheated on them, really moral? Even if it potentially hurts and destroys lives? What constitutes it as moral? You guys thinking that it is?
BladeWorker
Member
I'm a girl, so I've reversed the genders for this situation.Odrion said:
I'd still want to know the truth of what happened. There are some things that couples will never tell one another (gee honey before I met you, I never trimmed my nose hair! should be one) but this is something that I feel is important for the relationship.
If it happens once and never again, there is room for forgiveness - especially if the pair eventually marry and have children. Forgiveness would not be guaranteed, but it would be possible.
Sorry. You Samson'd through one of the strongest pillars of your relationship, you face the consequences. I would rather be hurt or devastated and move on than be in a relationship with someone who would go fuck someone else because they were mad at me and then cover it up so that they could keep on being with me.Odrion said:
Johnlenham
Member
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