Did you identify with being a female while you were a man? Forgive my ignorance, but typically a transwoman, the reverse being true for a transman, identifies with being a female stuck in a mans body. Does the same hold true for you?
And quit saying people are saying you have NO understanding. No one has used the words "you have no understanding" and you sill insist we're implying you have no understanding. Just that it would be hard for a woman to FULLY grasp what it's like to be a man talking to a man.
As a typical straight man, I think there's nothing inherent to me being a man that makes me understand the "ball busting" banter better. Nothing. It's just a game we've been instructed to play as boys, and yes, women can understand it pretty easily. They just aren't forced to play it as much by female culture.
I don't know why you're getting on my case or anyone else's for not knowing the fact you were a male for over 2 decades. Sorry I was posting under the assumption you were always a female. Next time I'll assume any poster has experienced what it's like to be both genders before saying anything.
I'm not trying to be a dick, if I had known that I obviously wouldn't have said what I did, but my point still stands (just not for you)
Did you identify with being a female while you were a man? Forgive my ignorance, but typically a transwoman, the reverse being true for a transman, identifies with being a female stuck in a mans body. Does the same hold true for you?
And quit saying people are saying you have NO understanding. No one has used the words "you have no understanding" and you sill insist we're implying you have no understanding. Just that it would be hard for a woman to FULLY grasp what it's like to be a man talking to a man.
Of course. It comes into play every day when men do anything. That's what creates a large part of their social identity.
Actually, I thought that was literally the polite way to view transgendered people. Am I mistaken? His question seemed 100% on point.
Yes. But I never actually liked the game. So being a man didn't give me any special affinity for "ball busting" that some women would never be able to understand. I don't understand it!That already is a huge difference.
That already is a huge difference.
And why are they instructed to play that game? What else are boys socialized into?
It's been pretty funny when interacting with TimetoKill, Kirblar, Crafty, and the rest saying I have no idea what it's like to be in a male relationship or that I can't fully understand it. Well, I guess if you guys say so!
Sure. It's useful especially as an intro to talking about an issue. One of my friends is pretty flaky, and it's something we give him shit for because it bothers us. It's not that we don't like him, and he knows that. But sometimes you make a joke about it "are you gonna be here at noon, or are you on Mike time?" to bring it up as opposed to starting an argument because you don't want to raise tensions and bring down everyone's mood. It also comes across as less controlling/aggressive by saying that rather than, "show up on time for once," or something.You make fun of others to deliver useful critique?
Case in point of what I was talking about in my post above. You jumped to a conclusion that men busting each others' balls is "evolutionary".
It's so obviously a learned behaviour. There is nothing natural about it. It's a trait of masculine culture in our society, and men are socialized to relate to one another that way. It's not biology.
Some women relate to each other in this way too, depending on what family and culture they come from (ie Jersey?). Noticed the trend of women sarcastically calling each other "sluts" or "cunts" or whatever?
Maybe people should not have said that she doesn't understand because she isn't a man. Instead of you know, actually trying make it clear.
You were also not a cisgender male. It's not being said disrespectfully, but to acknowledge that you were always a woman experiencing these things despite outer appearances.You said I wouldn't be able to fully understand what it's like to be a man simply because I'm a woman. I have proven otherwise.
So when I say in my experience men making fun of each other in the way that they sometimes do really just comes off as hurtful and shallow conversation, it's not being dismissive or coming from a lack of understanding.
And where does this masculine culture come from? It doesn't just pop out of the ether. It most likely has some form of biological roots. Masculinity is often identified with power and status. Saying it's a sign of masculinity isn't disproving anything. Though I'm not an evolutionary psychologist, I'm simply hypothesizing.
Yes, please tell me more about my situation and experiences, and thus how I don't understand male interactions. It's very informative to me!You were also not a cisgender male. It's not being said disrespectfully, but to acknowledge that you were always a woman experiencing these things despite outer appearances.
Actually, in a way, given that your circumstances are atypical, you might be less likely to have the same understanding of the situation. Your decidedly unique perspective might be even less generalizable than others' perspectives.So when I say in my experience men making fun of each other in the way that they sometimes do really just comes off as hurtful and shallow conversation, it's not being dismissive or coming from a lack of understanding.
It's likely not biological roots. It probably has far more to do with the rise of patriarchical culture about 10k years ago, after the development of agriculture and centralized states (based around monarchs and armies). Property and kingship was passed down by locking down the female in order to guarantee paternity, and armies valued male strength. Male and female culture and their roles under this social organization became defined only in recent millennia, a blip in human existence.And where does this masculine culture come from? It doesn't just pop out of the ether. It most likely has some form of biological roots. Masculinity is often identified with power and status. Saying it's a sign of masculinity isn't disproving anything. Though I'm not an evolutionary psychologist, I'm simply hypothesizing.
:lol, I already knew you had transitioned, but okay. I was commenting on what it sounded like because it didn't match my experience at all. Once you clarified that it was something you didn't agree with it made sense. "Understand" means several things.
Sure. It's useful especially as an intro to talking about an issue. One of my friends is pretty flaky, and it's something we give him shit for because it bothers us. It's not that we don't like him, and he knows that. But sometimes you make a joke about it "are you gonna be here at noon, or are you on Mike time?" to bring it up as opposed to starting an argument because you don't want to raise tensions and bring down everyone's mood. It also comes across as less controlling/aggressive by saying that rather than, "show up on time for once," or something.
It's okay, dude, but here's why I don't bring it up:And Dax, I apologize if we made you bring that up when you didn't want to
Actually, in a way, given that your circumstances are atypical, you might be less likely to have the same understanding of the situation. Your decidedly unique perspective might be even less generalizable than others' perspectives.
Men can bring looks, talents, intelligence, personality, accomplishments or whatever to the table and have value. Women learn at an early age, consciously or subconsciously, that their sole value is looks/sex. This problem is an extension of sexism.
Men do not face sexism like that so the issue isn't as pervasive. Society is arguably psychologically abusive towards women.
You said I wouldn't be able to fully understand what it's like to be a man simply because I'm a woman. I have proven otherwise.
So when I say in my experience men making fun of each other in the way that they sometimes do really just comes off as hurtful and shallow conversation, it's not being dismissive or coming from a lack of understanding.
You have lived them. You didn't enjoy them. That doesn't make them bad, that makes them not for you.Yes, please tell me more about my situation and experiences, and thus how I don't understand male interactions. It's very informative to me!
You didn't answer my question.
It rarely is. You can mask critique as a joke, and sometimes it works. It is not reason why people are making fun of others. Especially because things are repeated over and over again.
Maybe I came out a little rude. I thought that people that undergo that kind of transformation is because they always felt the other gender. So wasn't she a female trapped on a male body. If the changes can come later also then dismiss my post.
From the perspective I've gained that's how I feel about them, which is what I've said from the beginning. My issue was with you guys saying I can't fully understand it. I assure you, I do.You have lived them. You didn't enjoy them. That doesn't make them bad, that makes them not for you.
Um, what? You really need to broaden your perspective, dude.Many men don't enjoy talking on the phone for hours about their feelings. That doesn't make it wrong or bad that many women do like that.
What rarely is what?
Also I'm getting the impression that you're thinking of something more mean-spirited than I am.
Well this thread has taken a turn for the predictable.
I was using a common stereotypical behavior that men often make fun of women for doing.From the perspective I've gained that's how I feel about them, which is what I've said from the beginning. My issue was with you guys saying I can't fully understand it. I assure you, I do.
Um, what? You really need to broaden your perspective, dude.
Imagine the things people make fun of. The way they look, embarrassing things they have done, odd mannerisms, you got all kinds of things that men make fun of that really isn't some useful critique for the other person. It rarely is the case when you are making fun of somebody, that you are trying to deliver some critique in a nice way.
And even ball busting in itself.... It seems very 20th century Western culture to me. I don't think it's an ancient behaviour at all. Certainly not biology.
I mean: I'm a straight man. I think it's dumb. Am I a biological anomaly? Nope. More like I just didn't take to this weak aspect of social programming.
nothing really. Maybe make sure parents are better suited to raise their children, dunno how to enforce that though.So, I'm just gonna ignore some of this thread and ask, what do people see as the best way to combat this problem? Because, clearly there is a problem here, everyone agrees on that. Is the impetus on advertising companies and Hollywood/fashion mags etc to start promoting a better, less image obsessed style of living? Obviously one of the biggest factors in creating this mindset for young people is how the normal media promotes it. And it kinda seems inevitable in a capitalist society.
Yup. Even when I do something brave like bring in my background, the women are still ignored and told how it is. "Well, you didn't really experience it."
You're going to dismiss my perspective anyway and assume about my experiences, so why bother?
Imagine the things people make fun of. The way they look, embarrassing things they have done, odd mannerisms, you got all kinds of things that men make fun of that really isn't some useful critique for the other person. It rarely is the case when you are making fun of somebody, that you are trying to deliver some critique in a nice way.
You're going to dismiss my perspective anyway and assume about my experiences, so why bother?
It would surprise me if it weren't. Ball busting is a way to test boundaries, even animals do that. The specific form it takes is cultural but the social interaction and the emotions that goes with it are biological.
nothing really. Maybe make sure parents are better suited to raise their children, dunno how to enforce that though.
I don't really see it as a problem, it's just growing up and teens trying to find their identity.
By whom? All I'm saying is that you didn't play a trump card in proving your understanding of things. To be sure, you have a unique perspective. It might grant you a deeper insight into the male condition or it might be a confounding factor. It's impossible to tell.Look at that! I'm still being dismissed!
If you want to say that "testing boundaries" is biological, I'd be open to that. (Though it sounds like an innate option for any agent in a group of other agents - no advanced biological programming required to explain it)It would surprise me if it weren't. Ball busting is a way to test boundaries, even animals do that. The specific form it takes is cultural but the social interaction and the emotions that goes with it are biological.
Well it's pretty simple, following the discussion you two were having. Crafty and I were arguing that men have a different perspective from women. It doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, but that influences how they view the world.
If you identified yourself as a man before, then yes, you would have shared that perspective.
If you identified yourself as a woman before, trapped in a male body, then you would not necessarily share the same perspective. It would still be a valuable and unique perspective, but not the same, by your own definition.
So, the only reason he asked is because that was the entire discussion. No one is trying to dismiss anything. You brought it up to win the argument, but it actually doesn't really win the argument.
Huh, yeah, I think you guys are talking about a different kind of communication from what I'm used to. Embarrassing things? Sure, that happens, and everyone laughs about it and it's a bonding moment because the event and the person are accepted within the group and it's a shared thing.
The way they look, though? I dunno. Especially if it's physical features, that's overboard. If it's some new clothes and you joke about them? Not sure what the big deal is there. You make humorous statements that everyone can laugh at, and it raises the spirits of the group. There is a lot of subtext that goes on in these moments that communicates a large amount of information. It lets you know which issues are sensitive with a person without it being a direct argument, it allows the person to laugh it off and change the subject if they don't want to discuss it, it lets the other person know you noticed something about them and that they're important enough to joke about, etc.
If you're talking about things like, "lol dude you're looking pretty fat today, eat too many pizzas?" then that's pretty different from what I'm thinking. I really get the impression that people are talking about different kinds of things here and generally just talking past each other.
By whom? All I'm saying is that you didn't play a trump card in proving your understanding of things. To be sure, you have a unique perspective. It might grant you a deeper insight into the male condition or it might be a confounding factor. It's impossible to tell.
If you don't want people assuming things about your capability to understand male interactions based solely on gender, then you shouldn't want them to assume those things based solely on trans/cis status.
It's a signifier of trust/comfort level with the other people. Much like getting drinks together is also used as shorthand to signal trust/comfort, since the inebriation lowers everyone's guard and/or filter.If you want to say that "testing boundaries" is biological, I'd be open to that. (Though it sounds like an innate option for any agent in a group of other agents - no advanced biological programming required to explain it)
But "ball busting" is the culturally specific form that you speak of. "Telling jokes at one anothers' expense to strengthen allies' bonds" is not a biological concept, that is modern Western masculine culture.
I've spent a ton of time in mainstream commercial gyms at both peak and off-peak times, and your position does not match my observations. You might have a misapprehension because a lot of women might not spend a lot of time in the weights area (unfortunately), instead favoring cardio equipment and classes, but I'd say there are definitely more women than men. Add to the fact that (as others have said) many more women do home workouts, or attend female-only gyms, often because they either have body image issues or don't want to be leered at (or some combination of the two).You say that, but I consider there's an OVERWHELMINGLY larger number of males than women in most gyms.
I think it's both. The idea that any social experiences are totally devoid of biological influence is crazy to me. Unless you believe in a "soul," then really the mind is a product of chemicals at all points in time. It is influenced by culture and socialization too, so it's always both. Nature vs. Nurture is kind of a dead debate.Do you feel that making fun of each other is a biological issue and not a social issue. That something like this can only be understood if you have completely experienced the male psych?
It is, but there are multiple ways to build trust.It's a signifier of trust/comfort level with the other people. Much like getting drinks together is also used as shorthand to signal trust/comfort, since the inebriation lowers everyone's guard and/or filter.
The answer to many questions is not "it's both".I think it's both. The idea that any social experiences are totally devoid of biological influence is crazy to me. Unless you believe in a "soul," then really the mind is a product of chemicals at all points in time. It is influenced by culture and socialization too, so it's always both. Nature vs. Nurture is kind of a dead debate.
I think it's both. The idea that any social experiences are totally devoid of biological influence is crazy to me.
If you want to say that "testing boundaries" is biological, I'd be open to that. (Though it sounds like an innate option for any agent in a group of other agents - no advanced biological programming required to explain it)
But "ball busting" is the culturally specific form that you speak of. "Telling jokes at one anothers' expense to strengthen allies' bonds" is not a biological concept, that is modern Western masculine culture.
You're awesome, Prophet Steve.Such a strong biological influence that she isn't able to fully understand what the reason is for men making fun of each other as she now is a woman?
Because I don't get those deeper reasons for making fun of others, and so do other people here. She has been part of all the societal expectations of men. Competing with each other and being humorous among them, the only two things I think are responsible for this behavior.
You even agreed that that is most of the reason. And then said she couldn't really understand it because of all the interactions between men. Never ever trying to say what actually is the reason. We are not steered by a primal urge to make fun of each other.
