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[E-Cat]

Assuming that PS5 and Xbox 4 will again have AMD's APUs and come out in the 2019-2021 window, GF's 7nm LP/LP+ is basically a lock because there's nothing else. NVIDIA use TSMC, but AMD haven't since 28nm. The GF 7nm LP process is very comparable to TSMC's 7FF, both having a 40nm Minimum Metal Pitch, offering 6T cells and a nearly identical Contacted Poly Pitch (56 GF vs 57 TSMC).

https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/cont...alfoundries-discloses-7nm-process-detail.html

GLOBALFOUNDRIES licensed their 14nm process from Samsung and decided to skip 10nm because they thought it would be a short-lived node. At 7nm GLOBALFOUNDRIES has taken advantage of the additional technical resources they acquired from IBM to develop their own process.

7LP (Leading Performance) will offer a greater than 40% performance improvement relative to 14nm or greater than 60% lower power. Area scaling will be approximately 2x and the die cost reduction will be greater than 30%, with greater than 45% in target segments. Initial customer products on 7LP are expected to launch in the first half of 2018 with volume production in the second half of 2018.

The 7LP process will be produced with optical lithography and what we now know is the Contacted Poly Pitch (CPP) will be 56nm and the Minimum Metal Pitch (MMP) will be 40nm produced with Self-Aligned Double Patterning (SADP). A 6-track cell will be offered with a cell height of 240nm. The high density 6T SRAM cell size is 0.0269 microns squared. A 7LP+ process is also planned that will take advantage of EUV when it is ready to offer improved performance and density. <-- will appear approx. a year after 7LP

The data in the table [see article] illustrates the need for design-technology co-optimization (DTCO) at the leading edge. Intel and Samsung have the smallest CPP and MMP values but because GLOBALFOUNDRIES and TSMC offer 6T cells, they achieve smaller cell heights and ultimately GLOBALFOUNDRIES has the smallest CPP x Cell Height value. Samsung achieves the smallest SRAM cell size and through the use of EUV we expect Samsung to have the lowest mask count.

GLOBALFOUNDRIES 7LP adds a competitive 7nm process to customer options for leading edge design and production. The process parameters are competitive across the board and provide leading density. The availability of the FX-7 ASIC platforms offers customers an additional engagement path not available at other foundries.

(e.g. 7.5T = 7.5 track cells)

While GF 7nm risk production is slated to begin a year after TSMC, the first year of TSMC 7nm will be used for mobile partners first such as Apple, Qualcomm, etc.; Whereas GF will use their 7nm for AMD first, so both AMD and NVIDIA will launch a 7nm GPU by the same time, probably in H1/19.

There is a growing consensus in the semiconductor industry that 5nm cannot be rushed, lest they wanna face another 10nm situation again. So, it will probably take a long time to get to the "real 5nm" that will use something like stacked horizontal silicon nanowires, and who knows what will come after that?

Enjoy the upcoming consoles, gents, because the 10th generation may be pushing 2030!

 

[tuxfool]

The current consoles are using TSMC at 16nm (the Pro and the X). I don't see why they would use GloFo just because AMD does.

 

[Md Ray]

The current consoles are using TSMC at 16nm (the Pro and the X). I don't see why they would use GloFo just because AMD does.

Even the current base models (the PS4 Slim and the S) are using TSMC 16nm FinFET.

 

[E-Cat]

The current consoles are using TSMC at 16nm (the Pro and the X). I don't see why they would use GloFo just because AMD does.

Even the current base models (the PS4 Slim and the S) are using TSMC 16nm FinFET.

The original PS4 and X1 are using TSMC 28nm, so naturally with the shrink they continue using TSMC.

The console makers will use whatever manufacturer the chip designer uses. The foundries are not interchangeable, it is very expensive to make multiple designs for multiple foundries (like Apple did with the A9).

 

[Inuhanyou]

i think that's pretty much obvious that Sony is waiting for 7nm

 

[ethomaz]

They probably will use TSMC 7nm that will be even more mature.

 

[E-Cat]

They probably will use TSMC 7nm that will be even more mature.

Depends entirely on whether they will use AMD or NVIDIA.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

Uhh.......is this good?

I literally have no idea.

 

[BigEmil]

Next gen consoles will use less power than current gen consoles nice

 

[blu]

7nm non-EUV? Interesting..

 

[tuxfool]

The original PS4 and X1 are using TSMC 28nm, so naturally with the shrink they continue using TSMC.

That doesn't make sense. If anything, moving from 28nm planar to 16/14nm FinFET processes would be the ideal place to make a transition. In that transition (or any other these days), you're going to have to redesign for the new process, it isn't simply plugging in existing designs and shrinking them.

The simple fact is that they'll use whoever gives them a better deal (and meets their mfg goals).

 

[Ahasverus]

Should we be excited?

 

[marciocdb]

Should we be excited?

Less heat generated, less power usage... higher frequencies.... so yeah....

 

[E-Cat]

That doesn't make sense. If anything, moving from 28nm planar to 16/14nm FinFET processes would be the ideal place to make a transition. In that transition (or any other these days), you're going to have to redesign for the new process, it isn't simply plugging in existing designs and shrinking them.

However arduous the process of transitioning from 28nm planar to 16nm FinFET, switching manufacturers at the same time would make it doubly so.

The simple fact is that they'll use whoever gives them a better deal (and meets their mfg goals).

Presumably AMD, too, will factor in such things on their choice of manufacturer for their discrete GPUs.

 

[mrklaw]

Imagine if they’d have skipped the mid gens and gone from 28 to 7nm.

 

[amstradcpc]

The thing is that for what we know a comparable GPU in size at 7nm to the current pro console GPUs at 16nm will be RX Vega, and it looks to perform similar to a 1080...So not even next gen could allow 4K 60fps.
So much wait for something that could be got today at 16nm if console makers had gone with Nvidia...

 

[tuxfool]

So much wait for something that could be got today at 16nm if console makers had gone with Nvidia...

Only if they felt like being sodomized with a rusty nail by Nvidia. Given the shit Nvidia pulled on both Sony and MS, I don't see them actively looking to go that way. Also Nvidia is in a position where it doesn't need them to.

Presumably AMD, too, will factor in such things on their choice of manufacturer for their discrete GPUs.

Presumably that is why AMD took a write-down when modifying their deal with GloFo for that very purpose.

 

[Lady Gaia]

Depends entirely on whether they will use AMD or NVIDIA.

Not at all. AMD manufactures their own Polaris designs using GF's process and that didn't stop Sony or Microsoft from having a choice of foundries. Is it expensive? Sure, but getting the right price/performance/power/reliability balance can make or break your brand so they'll do their research and keep options open. Being locked into a single source is never wise, no matter how strategic the partnership feels at the start.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Console makers will take any die shrink available as it comes, they're guaranteed to sell millions regardless.

What would a hypothetical power consumption be for a Ps4 on 7nm?

 

[hanspampel]

I don't think GloFo 7nm LP process is a given
Original Ps4 and XB1 used TSMC and the Ps4 Slim and XB1S, too

All depends on the maturity of the process, price and capacities.
Mobile comes first for every new process, HPC is second, High—end Desktop is third. Consoles are just fourth in line

Console makers will take any die shrink available as it comes, they're guaranteed to sell millions regardless.What would a hypothetical power consumption be for a Ps4 on 7nm?

It's in the Op
Roughly 60% less power for the SOC
RAM, and all that other stuff will still consume the same unless you use new and better technology there, too

 

[Vashetti]

Console makers will take any die shrink available as it comes, they're guaranteed to sell millions regardless.

What would a hypothetical power consumption be for a Ps4 on 7nm?

For reference, here's PS4 vs Slim (28nm vs 16nm)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-the-playstation-4-slim-cuh-2000

 

[pooptest]

Depends entirely on whether they will use AMD or NVIDIA.

nVidia is fairly doubtful. They burned quite a few bridges in the past and it seems nobody is letting them forget it.

 

[tuxfool]

For reference, here's PS4 vs Slim (28nm vs 16nm)



http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-the-playstation-4-slim-cuh-2000

This makes it hard to compare as they're increasing computational performance while maintaining a somewhat flexible consumption and die area envelope.

These and these processes don't scale evenly. As the article notes you can scale 7nm to an extra 40% more computation in the same area or 60% less power consumption for a given performance level. If somebody were to replicate the exact capabilities of a Pro at a smaller process node, then they would opt for pure power reduction.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

nVidia is fairly doubtful. They burned quite a few bridges in the past and it seems nobody is letting them forget it.

other than Nintendo who are probably all-in now

 

[pooptest]

other than Nintendo who are probably all-in now

Yeah, true. I don't think they've experienced nVidia yet? Both the Wii and Wii U were AMD (ATI at the time of Wii, iirc).

 

[ethomaz]

Depends entirely on whether they will use AMD or NVIDIA.

?

AMD always used TSMC for console APUs and they are even thinking in using for high-end GPUs.

TSMC 7nm is planned to be early than GF 7nm and if the same happens like GF 14nm (that failed to the point if give up and licensing Samsung 14nm). GF is all talk but until now they couldn't delivery any process from themselves.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Yeah, true. I don't think they've experienced nVidia yet? Both the Wii and Wii U were AMD (ATI at the time of Wii, iirc).

Supposedly they were developing 3DS with an old Tegra originally, I haven't seen the rumoured pics myself

 

[RoboPlato]

i think that's pretty much obvious that Sony is waiting for 7nm

Yep

Only way to get Ryzen and a proper GPU in a console form factor and TDP

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I do think 7nm is the most likely process node to launch on, but I have no idea as to which fab it'll come from. Even accounting for delays it should be ready by holiday 2019, which I think is the earliest a PS5 could come.

It would be mature by 2020-2021, and there is even a possibility of a 5nm or similar node being used if the next generation systems come out in that slightly later timeframe. Which I think is quite likely considering the existence of mid-gen console refreshes now. In my opinion they were a signal that this generation wasn't only going to last 5-6 years.

 

[jdstorm]

Why not just launch early on 14nm then do a 7nm refresh in 2024?

Surely that would be cheaper while still providing a substantial jump from the Jaguars in the current gen consoles.

 

[hanspampel]

Why not just launch early on 14nm then do a 7nm refresh in 2024?

Surely that would be cheaper while still providing a substantial jump from the Jaguars in the current gen consoles.

14nm is like the Xbox One X
And 10nm is no high power process and not worth it like 20nm

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Why not just launch early on 14nm then do a 7nm refresh in 2024?

Surely that would be cheaper while still providing a substantial jump from the Jaguars in the current gen consoles.

They're already on 14nm for PS4Pro and Scorpio. Scorpio is $500 and that's not price gouging. Launching a more powerful system on 14nm means launching a bigger chip on 14nm, and the price of a chip is directly related to it's size. It would need more memory, and probably a more expensive form of memory (i.e. GDDR5X) in order to justify it's existence.

This means that if you want a 14nm PS5, you can look forward to 599 US dollars, and it only being moderately more powerful than scorpio (albeit with a better CPU).

 

[Delusibeta]

Why not just launch early on 14nm then do a 7nm refresh in 2024?

Surely that would be cheaper while still providing a substantial jump from the Jaguars in the current gen consoles.

That's kinda what the PS4 Pro and Xbonx is already doing, though? Frankly, the R&D on aforementioned upgrade consoles would probably mean that the true next generation consoles probably aren't coming out until 2020.

 

[E-Cat]

?

AMD always used TSMC for console APUs and they are even thinking in using for high-end GPUs.

TSMC 7nm is planned to be early than GF 7nm and if the same happens like GF 14nm (that failed to the point if give up and licensing Samsung 14nm). GF is all talk but until now they couldn't delivery any process from themselves.

I'm just saying the trend seems to have changed as they didn't use any TSMC on 16/14nm (aside from the consoles), assuming that their future non-legacy console APUs would be based on their line of discrete GPUs. But, I mean, I'm not opposed to them using TSMC again. It's always good to have more options.

It's not that I trust in GF to deliver a great 7nm process as much as I trust in the engineers, scientists and IP gained through the IBM Microelectronics acquisition.

 

[Instro]

Yeah, true. I don't think they've experienced nVidia yet? Both the Wii and Wii U were AMD (ATI at the time of Wii, iirc).

3DS was originally being designed with a Tegra chip, but Nintendo needed a lower power draw than Nvidia could provide. Something along those lines anyway.

 

[Carn82]

nVidia is fairly doubtful. They burned quite a few bridges in the past and it seems nobody is letting them forget it.

Consumer and console space hasnt been their focus for quite a while now.

 

[Vashetti]

They're already on 14nm for PS4Pro and Scorpio. Scorpio is $500 and that's not price gouging. Launching a more powerful system on 14nm means launching a bigger chip on 14nm, and the price of a chip is directly related to it's size. It would need more memory, and probably a more expensive form of memory (i.e. GDDR5X) in order to justify it's existence.

This means that if you want a 14nm PS5, you can look forward to 599 US dollars, and it only being moderately more powerful than scorpio (albeit with a better CPU).

Pro and X are 16nm.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Pro and X are 16nm.

My mistake, but it's still not much of an improvement.

 

[LelouchZero]

I'm really looking forward to the new tech of 2019 and onwards!

GPUs are going to be a lot faster in 2019, I predict something on the high end that is around 1.5-2x the Titan X Pascal in 2018-2019.

I think Titan X power (2016 model) will be somewhere in the mid range segment in 2018, I can see the next gen consoles potentially having something quite a bit more powerful than it should they release in 2020.

I'm personally hoping for 2020-2021 for the next generation consoles, theoretically the later they release the better their hardware should be.

 

[hanspampel]

Pro and X are 16nm.

Yes they are, but it's the same rage of nodes.
Just like intels 22nm node

 

[Renekton]

The current consoles are using TSMC at 16nm (the Pro and the X). I don't see why they would use GloFo just because AMD does.

If AMD uses GF, porting from GF to TSMC could cost them quite a bit.

 

[Atomski]

Consumer and console space hasnt been their focus for quite a while now.

Switch..

 

[truth411]

So 7LP is probably more like 10nm and 7LP+ is true 7nm. Similar to TSMC 7nm+ being true 7nm.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Imagine if they'd have skipped the mid gens and gone from 28 to 7nm.

They would have still moved to 16nm for their slim refreshes

My mistake, but it's still not much of an improvement.

To be fair, for Sony atleast, they didn't seem like they were aiming for the absolute best they could acheive anyway, or else they would have delayed. They just wanted a more powerful machine on the market in addition to PS4.

XB1X is MS looking to take back the power crown

 

[Carn82]

Switch..

Off the shelf Tegra.. Much more money is being made in automotive, deep learning, etc.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

I wonder if Jeff Rigby has anything to say on this...

 

[truth411]

Since next gen I's likely to last till 2030. I'm hoping for a console with as much performance possible at a $499 price point. The 360 launched at $399 back in 2005, considering inflation that's a $499 price point in 2020/2021.

 

[napata]

Off the shelf Tegra.. Much more money is being made in automotive, deep learning, etc.

This isn't true at all. More money might be made in those segments in the future but right now the gaming segment is bigger than all of the other segments combined. The YOY growth in revenue for Tegra last quarter was actually bigger than the entire automotive segment. Where do you even get the idea that more money is being made in those segments?

 

[Renekton]

Off the shelf Tegra.. Much more money is being made in automotive, deep learning, etc.

Not to mention Nvidia openly said recently the console business means nothing to them.

 

[E-Cat]

So 7LP is probably more like 10nm and 7LP+ is true 7nm. Similar to TSMC 7nm+ being true 7nm.

Nothing is really 'true 7nm'. If by that you mean Intel 7nm, then you'd be looking at something like 5nm for the other foundries.