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Graph-Age: 16-Bit J.RPG LTDs (U.S. Sales)

wow, this thread title surprised me so much, and then again when I met the lovely chart. Thanks :)

Oh, I like how it resembles actual situation. Big brands doing big numbers, some hits making >100k, usual RPG ~50k and bombs at ~20k :lol
 
kenta said:
Poor Ogre Battle, how in the world did Matsuno convince them to let him make more?
Basing the future of a Japanese strategy series on US console sales in the early 1990s might be comparable to basing Halo's future on Japanese sales today?
 

thefro

Member
You have to remember RPGs were a niche market before this point, and this is the point when they were just starting to break out (mainly due to Nintendo pimping certain titles hard in Nintendo Power and the like).

Heck, I think all those games that sold 100k+ were on the cover of Nintendo Power, now that I think about it.
 

Link316

Banned
Kusagari said:
I always thought Earthbound sold way worse than that. Most people always say we never got Mother 1 and 2 and now Mother 3 cause Earthbound bombed here... But I don't see how almost reaching 150k is THAT bad.

its bad because most of those Earthbounds were sold for $7 apiece
 
Link316 said:
its bad because most of those Earthbounds were sold for $7 apiece

For all the months it was available the average selling price was $28 (ranging from $68-$5).
It was a bomb b/c it was Nintendo-developed and NoA/NP believed it would make RPGs mainstream in America due to it taking place in modern America instead of a fantasy-medieval world. But it's unimpressive graphics kept many away when (1995) everyone was waiting for next-gen 3-D graphics whether on a console or PC. If it had bin released a year earlier it would have sold better.
 
ethelred said:
A LOT of these games' sales are really depressing, really. Lufia 2, Shining Force 2, Ogre Battle, Phantasy Star 4, etc.

I bought Lufia 2 it was the buggiest ****ing game I ever played, and it's pretty obvious they ran out of steam halfway through. There was an entire glitched dungeon, and you could break the game by unequipping items. They should have delayed it even more.

Phantasy Star 4 I've been playing on gametap and the dialog is terrible and the controls about the most unintuitve you could imagine for any JRPG. Phantasy Star 1 had an excuse being on the SMS and all but really, I could not imagine paying $94 for PS4 considering what I've played of it. It DID come out after Final Fantasy VI right? I mean hell, Final Fantasy IV even managed to have things like 'show you who can equip what and if it's any good or not'. Really, I just can't see the appeal of it.

Square2005 said:
For all the months it was available the average selling price was $28 (ranging from $68-$5).
It was a bomb b/c it was Nintendo-developed and NoA/NP believed it would make RPGs mainstream in America due to it taking place in modern America instead of a fantasy-medieval world. But it's unimpressive graphics kept many away when (1995) everyone was waiting for next-gen 3-D graphics whether on a console or PC. If it had bin released a year earlier it would have sold better.

Everything I read about the game at the time was "this is an RPG for kids" and there were reviews written in magazines by people who obviously never played it beyond looking at screenshots. You think XBox Masculinism and the ZOmG EXTREAM VIDEO GAME nonsense is bad now, think back to those times and they were WAY worse. The game wasn't taken seriously at all, which is too bad since it was and still is one of the most genius games ever, partly because of the themes of the game and how the graphics play into it in something of an ironic fashion.
 
Square2005 said:
Mmm, you won't happen to have PSX JRPG numbers (1997-2001 stuff mostly), do you honey? ^.^

It would be great if you do....I would love to add it to my very little txt with some this-gen JRPG numbers :)
 
Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Mmm, you won't happen to have PSX JRPG numbers (1997-2001 stuff mostly), do you honey? ^.^

It would be great if you do....I would love to add it to my very little txt with some this-gen JRPG numbers :)

Yes I do...I could make another graph for a new thread but it will take a while, maybe by tomorrow. It would help if you could list all the J.RPGs on PSX/N64 (last-gen).
 

ethelred

Member
Square2005 said:
Yes I do...I could make another graph for a new thread but it will take a while, maybe by tomorrow. It would help if you could list all the J.RPGs on PSX/N64 (last-gen).


Alundra I
Alundra II
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Dragon Valor
Granstream Saga
Guardian's Crusade
Parasite Eve I
Parasite Eve II
Star Ocean II: The Second Story
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Eternia
Threads of Fate
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Azure Dreams
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon 2
Arc the Lad Collection
Brigandine: Legend of Forsena
Final Fantasy Tactics
Front Mission III
Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth
Kartia: The World of Fate
Ogre Battle Limited
Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure
Saiyuki: Journey West
Tactics Ogre
Vandal Hearts I
Vandal Hearts II
Vanguard Bandits
Beyond the Beyond
Breath of Fire III
Breath of Fire IV
Chrono Cross
Dragon Quest VII
Final Fantasy Anthology
Final Fantasy Chronicles
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy Origins
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VIII
Grandia I
Jade Cocoon I
Koudelka
Legend of Dragoon
Legend of Legaia
Legend of Mana
Lunar I: Silver Star Story Complete
Lunar II: Eternal Blue Complete
Persona I
Persona II: Eternal Punishment
SaGa Frontier I
SaGa Frontier II
Shadow Madness
Suikoden I
Suikoden II
Thousand Arms
Wild Arms I
Wild Arms II
Xenogears

Dark Savior
Guardian Heroes
Legend of Oasis
Magic Knight Rayearth
Shining Wisdom
Dragon Force
Mystaria: The Realms of Lore
Shining Force III Scenario 1
Albert Odyssey: The Legend of Eldean
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Shining the Holy Ark

Hybrid Heaven
Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time
Quest 64
Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Calibre
Paper Mario
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium II
 
Well forget the graph then...
I'll be busy for quite awhile looking those up and adjusting them but I'll attempt to (will be at least tomorrow).
 
Er...wow.

I don't know which post surprises me the most...wait I know, ethelred's list-ready-in-4-min :lol

I...I trust his list! No other games I can think of now...


Written appreciation isn't the same, but imagine a lot and you are set Square2005 :)
 

ethelred

Member
Square2005 said:
Well forget the graph then...
I'll be busy for quite awhile looking those up and adjusting them but I'll attempt to (will be at least tomorrow).

Thanks, man. You rock for putting all the effort you are into this. It's appreciated. :)

Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Er...wow.

I don't know which post surprises me the most...wait I know, ethelred's list-ready-in-4-min :lol

I...I trust his list! No other games I can think of now...

:lol
 

Shouta

Member
ZeromusMog said:
I bought Lufia 2 it was the buggiest ****ing game I ever played, and it's pretty obvious they ran out of steam halfway through. There was an entire glitched dungeon, and you could break the game by unequipping items. They should have delayed it even more.

Yeah, the American version of the game was buggy for some reason. The JP and I think European verisions of the game weren't I believe. Oh and the glitched dungeon was just a walkway up to a guy that you talk to.
 
ethelred said:
Hybrid Heaven
Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time
Quest 64
Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber
Paper Mario
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium II

You forgot one -- there's also Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage...

Oh yeah, and it is quite odd that after such good sales of Illusion of Gaia Terranigma never came out here... I guess it's a casualty of Enix's giving up on the North American market for several years in the mid '90s. :(
 
A Black Falcon said:
You forgot one -- there's also Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage...

Oh yeah, and it is quite odd that after such good sales of Illusion of Gaia Terranigma never came out here... I guess it's a casualty of Enix's giving up on the North American market for several years in the mid '90s. :(

purposely
 
well Illusion of Gaia was published by nintendo rather than enix, iirc. by the time terranigma came around enix of america was probably kaput

us snes support was dwindling by then anyway
 
ethelred said:
Alundra I
Alundra II
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Dragon Valor
Granstream Saga
Guardian's Crusade
Parasite Eve I
Parasite Eve II
Star Ocean II: The Second Story
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Eternia
Threads of Fate
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Azure Dreams
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon 2
Arc the Lad Collection
Brigandine: Legend of Forsena
Final Fantasy Tactics
Front Mission III
Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth
Kartia: The World of Fate
Ogre Battle Limited
Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure
Saiyuki: Journey West
Tactics Ogre
Vandal Hearts I
Vandal Hearts II
Vanguard Bandits
Beyond the Beyond
Breath of Fire III
Breath of Fire IV
Chrono Cross
Dragon Quest VII
Final Fantasy Anthology
Final Fantasy Chronicles
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy Origins
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VIII
Grandia I
Jade Cocoon I
Koudelka
Legend of Dragoon
Legend of Legaia
Legend of Mana
Lunar I: Silver Star Story Complete
Lunar II: Eternal Blue Complete
Persona I
Persona II: Eternal Punishment
SaGa Frontier I
SaGa Frontier II
Shadow Madness
Suikoden I
Suikoden II
Thousand Arms
Wild Arms I
Wild Arms II
Xenogears

Holy guacamole! That's a whole lot of RPGs (and games with RPG trappings) that made it to the US. How many were there on the NES, SNES and GEN for comparison's sake?
 
purposely

True, Aidyn may not exactly be one of the better RPGs ever made, but the list should be complete, and not just be a list of the good RPGs... some other ones listed there are arguably not exactly great either (for instance: Quest 64 makes Aidyn look fantastic...)...

It is American though, I think, so perhaps that would be grounds for leaving it out, if this thread is supposed to be Japanese games only... though it seems like complete "console RPG-ish games" lists would be more helpful...

Holy guacamole! That's a whole lot of RPGs (and games with RPG trappings) that made it to the US. How many were there on the NES, SNES and GEN for comparison's sake?

Well, this is using an extremely, extremely lenient definition of "RPG" that includes some strategy games (Ogre Battle, Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, etc), some action/adventure games (Zelda, Alundra, Mana games, Illusion of Gaia, etc), and some 3d platform/action games (Threads of Fate and others)... I wouldn't call those RPGs. Really this is a list of 'Epic' style titles, not just RPGs... heck, why not adventure games too? Shadowgate and Resident Evil are RPGs too! :)
 

ethelred

Member
A Black Falcon said:
Well, this is using an extremely, extremely lenient definition of "RPG" that includes some strategy games (Ogre Battle, Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, etc),

Ogre Battle, Front Mission, and FFT are pretty unquestionably classified as strategy RPGs. I've never heard anyone put forth an argument that they are anything but that.

A Black Falcon said:
some action/adventure games (Zelda, Alundra, Mana games, Illusion of Gaia, etc), and some 3d platform/action games (Threads of Fate and others)... I wouldn't call those RPGs.

Well, you don't seem familiar with the subgenre known as SRPG, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising that you're unfamiliar with the term Action RPG as well. Mana not an RPG? Seriously?

A Black Falcon said:
Really this is a list of 'Epic' style titles, not just RPGs... heck, why not adventure games too? Shadowgate and Resident Evil are RPGs too! :)

Because Resident Evil isn't even remotely classifiable as an RPG.
 
Shouta said:
Yeah, the American version of the game was buggy for some reason. The JP and I think European verisions of the game weren't I believe. Oh and the glitched dungeon was just a walkway up to a guy that you talk to.

It didn't break the game, and yeah it was only one or two screens, however I have never seen something so horribly unprofessional tech-wise in any video game before or since.
 

jarrod

Banned
Tyrone Slothrop said:
well Illusion of Gaia was published by nintendo rather than enix, iirc. by the time terranigma came around enix of america was probably kaput

us snes support was dwindling by then anyway
Nintendo still published the game in Europe though... a market where SNES and Enix had significantly less presence.

Actually, NOA initially had plans to release Terranigma, Tactics Ogre and Dragon Quest VI all in the USA during 1996/1997, even going through the trouble of securing licensing deals from Enix and Quest, only to back out last second for whatever reason. :(
 

Symytry

Member
Kinda sad how there is never any mention of sales for Saturn RPG's. I believe it was home to some of the best RPG's I've ever played. Games Like Dragon Force and Panzer Saga will live forever in my mind :)

...anyone know how well (or poor) those titles sold here? I know that Panzer had several seriously limited print runs, but I have no clue about Dragon Force.
 
Well, you don't seem familiar with the subgenre known as SRPG, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising that you're unfamiliar with the term Action RPG as well. Mana not an RPG? Seriously?

Of course I'm familiar with the SRPG "Genre", I just think that it's a nonexistent category invented by strategy-game-unfamiliar console gamers who didn't realize how much variety there is in the strategy game genre (given that the vast majority of strategy games are for PCs, not consoles)... if Heroes of Might & Magic, Disciples, Etherlords, Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Warcraft III (to name a bunch of PC strategy games with various RPG or 'tactics' aspects), etc. are strategy games, so are, without a doubt, Ogre Battle and FFT. Claiming that nearly identical games are in different genres just because they are on different platforms is absurd. I have FFT, FFTA, and Ogre Battle 64, there's no way I'd call them anything other than strategy games... (on a related note, Fire Emblem is also definitely a strategy game series. Advance Wars too, but that's kind of a hybrid strategy/wargame...)

Warcraft III isn't a RTS-RPG just because it has heroes that level up and equippable items. Neither is HoMM. X-Com isn't an SRPG because it's got isometric tile-based turnbased combat, kind of like 'tactics' games. Why should there be different standards for console games? There shouldn't!

As for Mana, it could possibly be called an action-RPG, but then where do you draw the line between Zelda (which most people agree isn't an RPG, it's an action-adventure game) and Mana, which is essentially Zelda with levelling up and J-RPG style towns and armor upgrades?

Because Resident Evil isn't even remotely classifiable as an RPG.

Of course it isn't, which was the point... I was trying to say "If any game with a story is an RPG now, why not those too?" to show how this "expanded RPG" 'genre' is kind of silly...
 

thefro

Member
If you have stats, talk to NPCs, and level up by fighting monsters, it's a RPG.

Zelda II is an action-RPG. Rest of the series aren't RPGs, although they have RPG elements.
 

ethelred

Member
A Black Falcon said:
By console definitions yes, by PC definitions no.

And miraculously enough, we just HAPPEN to be talking about console games. Will wonders never cease!

A Black Falcon said:
Of course I'm familiar with the SRPG "Genre", I just think that it's a nonexistent category invented by strategy-game-unfamiliar console gamers who didn't realize how much variety there is in the strategy game genre (given that the vast majority of strategy games are for PCs, not consoles)... if Heroes of Might & Magic, Disciples, Etherlords, Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Warcraft III (to name a bunch of PC strategy games with various RPG or 'tactics' aspects), etc. are strategy games, so are, without a doubt, Ogre Battle and FFT. Claiming that nearly identical games are in different genres just because they are on different platforms is absurd. I have FFT, FFTA, and Ogre Battle 64, there's no way I'd call them anything other than strategy games... (on a related note, Fire Emblem is also definitely a strategy game series. Advance Wars too, but that's kind of a hybrid strategy/wargame...)

Nope, FFT, Fire Emblem, and Ogre Battle are strategy RPGs. They combine strategic elements -- map-based battles, for instance -- with core RPG mechanics of levelling up / character progression systems and RPG narratives. Advance Wars is a pure turn-based strategy series rather than an SRPG series, like FE, because it lacks these components -- there is not a character progression/customization system within the game.


A Black Falcon said:
Of course it isn't, which was the point... I was trying to say "If any game with a story is an RPG now, why not those too?" to show how this "expanded RPG" 'genre' is kind of silly...

Except that it's not an expansionistic definition at all, and RE is in no way classifiable as an RPG while these others games objectively are.
 
And miraculously enough, we just HAPPEN to be talking about console games. Will wonders never cease!

You missed the point of my argument then, that just because they are on different formats doesn't mean that the genre should have different names and identities... :)

Nope, FFT, Fire Emblem, and Ogre Battle are strategy RPGs. They combine strategic elements -- map-based battles, for instance -- with core RPG mechanics of levelling up / character progression systems and RPG narratives. Advance Wars is a pure turn-based strategy series rather than an SRPG series, like FE, because it lacks these components -- there is not a character progression/customization system within the game.

I think I can take this as proof that you haven't played any of the PC strategy games I listed, then, or you'd know that you aren't proving anything with this statement. For instance, in Heroes of Might & Magic or Disciples (or Warcraft III or Warlords Battlecry) you have a persistent hero that levels up over a campaign and can get items (in some games you don't keep the items between missions, but either way you have an inventory), clearly RPG influences, but the games are called "Strategy" for a genre because that is their base genre. They are strategy games with some RPG influences, but strategy games nonetheless. (as for stories, the main difference I guess is that often in PC strategy games the main bulk of the story is told in intro briefing areas instead of in-engine stuff in towns or stuff like you'd find in a console RPG, but while the methods are different the end result of having a game that tells a narrative is the same, and that's more important...) The same is true for console games.

Of course it would be perfectly valid to note that they are Japanese-style games, as there definitely are significant differences between the way American companies do wargames (whether traditional hex-based or real-time like Sid Meier's Gettysburg!), strategy games, and RPGs and the way Japanese companies make those games (like the preference for squares instead of hexes or open maps...), but calling them completely different genres (RPGs instead of strategy games? Silly. "Tactics" or "tactical strategy" are usually reasonable subgenre definitions for these games, though, to show which kind of strategy games they are (a helpful thing in a genre as broad as that...)...

I know that the genre that a game fits in is overall a pretty unimportant thing, as it's trying to fit games into little narrow categories when often the most interesting games break those boundaries, and having all these defined genres makes it less likely for a game to try to be truly original because they feel that if their game does not fit into a popularly accepted genre it will not be a success, though, so overall this really isn't a big issue... I've just been playing PC games for longer than I have console games and find it unfortunate that so many console gamers do not recognize the origins of their own genres (for instance, the Japanese did not invent the RPG. Japanese RPGs are pretty much all based off of Wizardry and Ultima)... not recognizing strategy games for strategy games is just one of those things.

If I really wanted to be picky I could make the annoying (but technically true) argument that ALL games are RPGs because RPG means 'a game where you play a role' and in every game you do that in some way or another, but it makes more sense to try to define genres and subgenre categories so a game can be understood, genre-wise... even if that name requires hyphenation -- such as, for instance, calling Zelda a action-adventure-RPG or something, or Quest for Glory and adventure-RPG, or Netstorm a ... um... puzzle-RTS game, I guess? All games which are great in part because they do not fit into classic definitions of the genres as had been previously understood.

Except that it's not an expansionistic definition at all, and RE is in no way classifiable as an RPG while these others games objectively are.

Including Zelda? Yeah, I don't think even you can defend that one... it's included on this list because of popular interest, not because it's an RPG by any definition of the term.
 

ethelred

Member
A Black Falcon said:
You missed the point of my argument then, that just because they are on different formats doesn't mean that the genre should have different names and identities... :)

Of course it can justifiably lead to different definitions. PC gaming is largely different than console gaming. And PC RPGs are, on the whole, going to be different than console RPGs, just as both are distinctive from P&P RPGs. Same term for a genre, but in different formats of gaming it takes on different meanings.


The four paragraph PC rant is, while mildly interesting, totally irrelevant to this conversation and to these games in particular, and doesn't detract from OB/FFT/FE/SF's status as strategy RPGs.
 
Of course it can justifiably lead to different definitions. PC gaming is largely different than console gaming. And PC RPGs are, on the whole, going to be different than console RPGs, just as both are distinctive from P&P RPGs. Same term for a genre, but in different formats of gaming it takes on different meanings.

As I said, identifying something as a Western-style or Japanese-style RPG (often simplified as "console style" or "PC style", and either one works, because with either term there are exceptions... Japanese console RPGs that play like American ones, American PC ones that are like Japanese RPGs...) is certainly beneficial to understanding its gameplay... but that's a sub-genre classification, not a major genre one; that's the distinction I was making.

The four paragraph PC rant is, while mildly interesting, totally irrelevant to this conversation and to these games in particular, and doesn't detract from OB/FFT/FE/SF's status as strategy RPGs.

I know I rambled, and kind of contradict myself (making a point of complaining about genre classifications and then saying that genre classifications ideally shouldn't matter), but I didn't want to delete it all, so oh well... anyway though, I would disagree there, because there IS a console strategy game genre, small as it may be, and listing half of them in the RPG category doesn't help it...

(Console RTSes include Pikmin, Goblin Commander, various PC ports... hyphenated titles would include Battalion Wars (action-RTS) and others... TBS of course includes the Tactics sub-genre, so it's large on consoles... etc...)

The line between wargames and strategy games is a tough one for me though... I guess Advance Wars is a strategy game, but it plays so, so much like a simple wargame...

Anyway, a question... would Fire Emblem make this list, to you, and if not why not? Because it's a more strategic game than FFT? While true, that doesn't change the fact that it does have character levels and upgrading stats and persistent items...
 

Manjimaru

Member
I've found an old webpage of Quiter where they gave shipment numbers of some Square-Enix games and Chrono Trigger (US) was around 570 000 ex.
 

jarrod

Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Of course I'm familiar with the SRPG "Genre", I just think that it's a nonexistent category invented by strategy-game-unfamiliar console gamers who didn't realize how much variety there is in the strategy game genre (given that the vast majority of strategy games are for PCs, not consoles)... if Heroes of Might & Magic, Disciples, Etherlords, Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Warcraft III (to name a bunch of PC strategy games with various RPG or 'tactics' aspects), etc.
Actually, the term SRPG stands for "Simulation RPG" which was "invented" by Intelligent Systems back in 1990 when they created Fire Emblem on the Famciom... which happens to predate each one of those games you've mentioned by a good 5 to 10 years. :)
 
Symytry said:
Kinda sad how there is never any mention of sales for Saturn RPG's. I believe it was home to some of the best RPG's I've ever played. Games Like Dragon Force and Panzer Saga will live forever in my mind :)

...anyone know how well (or poor) those titles sold here? I know that Panzer had several seriously limited print runs, but I have no clue about Dragon Force.

Saturn sales are in this thread here! :)
 
Manjimaru said:
I've found an old webpage of Quiter where they gave shipment numbers of some Square-Enix games and Chrono Trigger (US) was around 570 000 ex.

Can you post a link to that old web page?
I'll look into those shipment figures.
 
Actually, the term SRPG stands for "Simulation RPG" which was "invented" by Intelligent Systems back in 1990 when they created Fire Emblem on the Famciom... which happens to predate each one of those games you've mentioned by a good 5 to 10 years.

X-Com was released in 1994... but that is interesting. "Simulation RPG" for a strategy game, truly odd...

Anyway, if you want older, how about 1990's King's Bounty, the first strategy game made by New World Computing (makers of the Might & Magic RPG series and, later, Heroes of Might & Magic)? I'm not sure when PC strategy games started using levelling units, though. The strategy and RPG genres grew out of wargames over time (both in pen & paper tabletop games and electronic ones), and drawing lines to say where one genre stops and the next starts isn't easy... for games like this looking at wargames makes sense, though. A Fire Emblem is quite different from a grand strategy game like Empire or Star Control or Civilization, after all, but is more like a hex-based wargame...

Anyway, Fire Emblem and what has become the Tactics genre (Tactics Ogre, FFT, Shining Force, etc) are quite different... they probably should be in different subgenres, I think. FE staying more wargame-inspired, and the Tactics games getting a bit more RPG-ish.
 
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