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[analog_future]

Gotta say, Directive 8020 is one of the first games to make me really think that maybe the UE5 haters aren't completely off-base.


I played/completed Directive 8020 and it was okay/fine, but it got me interested in going back and playing the Dark Pictures Anthology as I'd never played through those games. I started Man of Medan and it's shocking how good it looks and how well it runs compared to Directive 8020.

Same dev, same type of game, Man of Medan had a significantly smaller budget and sold for a lower MSRP than 8020, but somehow this 7 year old game looks 90% as good as Directive 8020 and runs waayyyyyy better.

On my 9800X3D / 9070 XT rig:

• Native 4K Man of Medan w/RT - 85-110 FPS
• Native 4K Directive 8020 w/RT - 25-40 FPS

So Man of Medan was ~3-4x more performant than Directive 8020 while looking 90% as good.

Animations are definitely better in Directive 8020, and the density of overall detail is improved. Nothing even remotely justifies the performance delta though. And frankly the depth of field in Directive 8020 looks worse and the shadows do too. DoF doesn't trace in-focus objects as precisely which makes them look more like cutouts. Shadows can look inconsistent and flickery in Directive 8020 but are pretty much perfect in Man of Medan.


A few of my comparison shots:

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

 

[SlimySnake]

Gotta say, Directive 8020 is one of the first games to make me really think that maybe the UE5 haters aren't completely off-base.


I played/completed Directive 8020 and it was okay/fine, but it got me interested in going back and playing the Dark Pictures Anthology as I'd never played through those games. I started Man of Medan and it's shocking how good it looks and how well it runs compared to Directive 8020.

Same dev, same type of game, Man of Medan had a significantly smaller budget and sold for a lower MSRP than 8020, but someone this 7 year old game looks 90% as good as Directive 8020 and runs waayyyyyy better.

On my 9800X3D / 9070 XT rig:

• Native 4K Man of Medan w/RT - 85-110 FPS
• Native 4K Directive 8020 w/RT - 25-40 FPS

So Man of Medan was ~3-4x more performant than Directive 8020 while looking 90% as good.

Animations are definitely better in Directive 8020, and the density of overall detail is improved. Nothing even remotely justifies the performance delta though. And frankly the depth of field in Directive 8020 looks worse and the shadows do too. DoF doesn't trace in-focus objects as precisely which makes them look more like cutouts. Shadows can look inconsistent and flickery in Directive 8020 but are pretty much perfect in Man of Medan.


A few of my comparison shots:

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Its not just rt, its path tracing. And like with most path traced games, its likely implemented by nvidia so take it up with them.

From the benchmarks I've seen, hradware lumen in this game is over 60 fps at native 4k which isn't too bad considering man of medan did not have rtgi, only reflections and AO.

I do agree that the game doesn't feel like a big leap over their previous games but that's a developer issue.

 

[Msamy]

I read a theory on twitter that the main reason behind announcing UE6 just 4 years after the launch of UE5 is that they are aware of all the UE5 hate/backlash and are hoping for a clean slate.

UE5.6 has already fixed most of the original issues like single threaded CPU utilization, shader compilations, traversal stutter, and lack of hardware lumen and nanite foliage support. UE5.7 drastically improved nanite foliage performance by completely reworking it and UE5.8 now runs Megalights at 60 fps on PS5 and is finally production ready. They even added a probe based Lumen system that is twice as fast as software lumen just for lower end hardware.

My guess is that they are like lets just start over and ship all these features we introduced in later UE5 versions that no one really bothered to use.

UE6 will be masterpiece

 

[dgrdsv]

Gotta say, Directive 8020 is one of the first games to make me really think that maybe the UE5 haters aren't completely off-base.


I played/completed Directive 8020 and it was okay/fine, but it got me interested in going back and playing the Dark Pictures Anthology as I'd never played through those games. I started Man of Medan and it's shocking how good it looks and how well it runs compared to Directive 8020.

Same dev, same type of game, Man of Medan had a significantly smaller budget and sold for a lower MSRP than 8020, but someone this 7 year old game looks 90% as good as Directive 8020 and runs waayyyyyy better.

On my 9800X3D / 9070 XT rig:

• Native 4K Man of Medan w/RT - 85-110 FPS
• Native 4K Directive 8020 w/RT - 25-40 FPS

So Man of Medan was ~3-4x more performant than Directive 8020 while looking 90% as good.

Animations are definitely better in Directive 8020, and the density of overall detail is improved. Nothing even remotely justifies the performance delta though. And frankly the depth of field in Directive 8020 looks worse and the shadows do too. DoF doesn't trace in-focus objects as precisely which makes them look more like cutouts. Shadows can look inconsistent and flickery in Directive 8020 but are pretty much perfect in Man of Medan.


A few of my comparison shots:

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Same thing, precompute vs realtime, saves a lot of dev time, less storage space, gives generally better results visually, solves issues with dynamic lighting, etc.
The problem is that to make full use of all the advantages UE5 provides over UE4 a game must do things with lighting which weren't really possible in UE4 without some serious artistic hacking.
And most games don't do that, they just do whatever they did in UE4 while simply switching to the new UE5 rendering systems. In such cases using UE4 could be advantageous for performance reasons.
But one should also remember how badly UE4 ran when you've tried adding RT to it - Jedi Survivor and all. So if you want to do a direct comparison this would be a better way to do it. Or compare UE4 vs UE5 with Lumen off, also works.

 

[archangelmorph]

It's bizarre that we got an UE6 announcement from a game using UE6 and not from the creators of UE6 itself. I'm curious how they will go about revealing it, with UE5 they released and paired it with the PS5, and I assumed they were going to do the same when the PS6 comes out but clearly not.

I'm hoping UE6 has spent a decent amount of time in the oven, and not a half baked unoptimised mess like UE5 was upon its release.

EDIT:

It's very weird

 

[GymWolf]

yep. the physics are there if the devs want to use them. they just dont.

Tbf that is just basic havok not destruction.

We have to wait kingmakers for that.

 

[dgrdsv]

I read a theory on twitter that the main reason behind announcing UE6 just 4 years after the launch of UE5 is that they are aware of all the UE5 hate/backlash and are hoping for a clean slate.

UE5.6 has already fixed most of the original issues like single threaded CPU utilization, shader compilations, traversal stutter, and lack of hardware lumen and nanite foliage support. UE5.7 drastically improved nanite foliage performance by completely reworking it and UE5.8 now runs Megalights at 60 fps on PS5 and is finally production ready. They even added a probe based Lumen system that is twice as fast as software lumen just for lower end hardware.

My guess is that they are like lets just start over and ship all these features we introduced in later UE5 versions that no one really bothered to use.

So most recent UE5 changes seem to be going into the opposite directions. Megalights, Nanite foliage are performance heavy and require HWRT. Cheaper s/w Lumen is aimed at smartphones basically.
Maybe they want to do a clean break of features and introduce UE6 as the high end only option, with HWRT requirement? While UE5 will remain for the lower end h/w.
It does seem weird to introduce UE6 in a MP title running at 200+ fps though.

 

[GymWolf]

No matter how many videos i watch about bf, shadows still look better to me.

Maybe Japan is easier to render than rocky islands or just more beatiful of a location.

 

[CGNoire]

I only agree with Chaos Physics in this. They haven't been used anywhere from what I know and it's supposed to be in the engine since 5.4. Unreal devs outright do not care about physics, we've seen this time and time again.

Devs in general you mean.

 

[Msamy]

No matter how many videos i watch about bf, shadows still look better to me.

Maybe Japan is easier to render than rocky islands or just more beatiful of a location.

This one will look better than both

 

[GymWolf]

This one will look better than both

I think it's more of a minor project for them, i would not be so sure...

 

[Msamy]

I think it's more of a minor project for them, i would not be so sure...

From leaks hexe seems like their biggest project

 

[GymWolf]

From leaks hexe seems like their biggest project

An ac game with witches and a female protagonist is their biggest project?

These dudes really dont know how to read a fucking room uh

 

[Msamy]

An ac game with witches and a female protagonist is their biggest project?

These dudes really dont know how to read a fucking room uh

Yes, that's clear woke culture

 

[GymWolf]

Yes, that's clear woke culture

Not much woke culture per se, but they really think 98% of males dudes that buy their games want a main ac game about witches and woth yet another female protagonist now that female protagonists are on the opposite side of the pendulum swing...like just look at the reactions about faye of war...

I'm actually mildly curious about an ac with magic powers but to make it a main game with big budget is a huge risk for them...

 

[geary]

Not much woke culture per se, but they really think 98% of males dudes that buy their games want a main ac game about witches and woth yet another female protagonist now that female protagonists are on the opposite side of the pendulum swing...like just look at the reactions about faye of war...

I'm actually mildly curious about an ac with magic powers but to make it a main game with big budget is a huge risk for them...

Let's see the other side of the coin. If it were a male protagonist, would have been a cuck for the witches and do their bidding...People would go crazy about that and a new Gonzito thread

 

[Vick]

No matter how many videos i watch about bf, shadows still look better to me.

Maybe Japan is easier to render than rocky islands or just more beatiful of a location.

I was, and probably still am excited for the game.. but there's so much cheap, ugly ass looking shit in the build they've let people play..



I mean the longer the video goes on the worse it gets. I am talking UGLY, shit, like PS3 level shit. Ridiculous looking 2D smoke that's genuinely generations behind Killzone 2, an actual PS3 game, weather conditions changing on the fly without clouds even altering their appearance, some awful animations, missing shadows, clipping, SSR disocclusion all over the place..

This last one above in motion was truly something to behold.
There's very good stuff, obviously, but I always felt Ubisoft games need at least a whole extra year to polish things, and still do.

I so wished I could have played a version of Black Flag as competent as RDR2 was almost 10 years ago..

Spoiler

Unrelated but i hate this hollow dude, i dont think i ever heard a criticism from him...ever?, he is the radbrad 2.0 but slightly less annoying...

These dudes are pretty much professional shills.

Yeah he was unsufferable in this video. Pretending to like the absolute TRASH that is the new Lucy Baldwin quest (and character).

 

[GymWolf]

I was, and probably still am excited for the game.. but there's so much cheap, ugly ass looking shit in the build they've let people play..



I mean the longer the video goes on the worst it gets. I am talking UGLY, shit, like PS3 level shit.

There's very good stuff, obviously, but I always felt Ubisoft games need a whole extra year to polish things.

Unrelated but i hate this hollow dude, i dont think i ever heard a criticism from him...ever?, he is the radbrad 2.0 but slightly less annoying...

These dudes are pretty much professional shills.

 

[GymWolf]

The overly sunny and super bright look make everything look fake and...cartoony?

Shadows had way much more realistic color palette.

Yeah sorry but this doesnt look a generation ahead of fw for what i'm seeing here.

 

[Luipadre]

Unreal engine continues to look like plastic. I dont expect major jump in quality, much less than UE4 to UE5, mostly refinements and preformance related stuff which is fine

 

[coachmcguirk91]

Gotta say, Directive 8020 is one of the first games to make me really think that maybe the UE5 haters aren't completely off-base.


I played/completed Directive 8020 and it was okay/fine, but it got me interested in going back and playing the Dark Pictures Anthology as I'd never played through those games. I started Man of Medan and it's shocking how good it looks and how well it runs compared to Directive 8020.

Same dev, same type of game, Man of Medan had a significantly smaller budget and sold for a lower MSRP than 8020, but someone this 7 year old game looks 90% as good as Directive 8020 and runs waayyyyyy better.

On my 9800X3D / 9070 XT rig:

• Native 4K Man of Medan w/RT - 85-110 FPS
• Native 4K Directive 8020 w/RT - 25-40 FPS

So Man of Medan was ~3-4x more performant than Directive 8020 while looking 90% as good.

Animations are definitely better in Directive 8020, and the density of overall detail is improved. Nothing even remotely justifies the performance delta though. And frankly the depth of field in Directive 8020 looks worse and the shadows do too. DoF doesn't trace in-focus objects as precisely which makes them look more like cutouts. Shadows can look inconsistent and flickery in Directive 8020 but are pretty much perfect in Man of Medan.


A few of my comparison shots:

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

UE5 is perfect for slow paced linear horror games. Pretty incredible

 

[SlimySnake]

I think it's more of a minor project for them, i would not be so sure...

lol the game is set in Germany. Its a full on AC game set in big Central European cities made by the A team at Ubisoft Montreal. Expect insane visuals. Its been in dev since valhalla. The witch supernatural stuff has also been toned down by the new directors. The game is just taking forever like most AAA games by big studios this gen but in terms of ambition, it is way more ambitious than ac shadows both in terms of tech and gameplay. Read the insider gaming leaks for more info.

 

[GudOlRub]

I'm more excited about Hexe than I've been for any other AC game in the past decade. No more dual protagonist garbage and an interesting setting that's very underutilized in videogames? Sign me in.
The leaks have been hitting all the right marks for me, if they fully materialize then it might be the first Ubisoft game in more than 5 or 6 years that I buy at full price.

 

[Bojji]

Gotta say, Directive 8020 is one of the first games to make me really think that maybe the UE5 haters aren't completely off-base.


I played/completed Directive 8020 and it was okay/fine, but it got me interested in going back and playing the Dark Pictures Anthology as I'd never played through those games. I started Man of Medan and it's shocking how good it looks and how well it runs compared to Directive 8020.

Same dev, same type of game, Man of Medan had a significantly smaller budget and sold for a lower MSRP than 8020, but someone this 7 year old game looks 90% as good as Directive 8020 and runs waayyyyyy better.

On my 9800X3D / 9070 XT rig:

• Native 4K Man of Medan w/RT - 85-110 FPS
• Native 4K Directive 8020 w/RT - 25-40 FPS

So Man of Medan was ~3-4x more performant than Directive 8020 while looking 90% as good.

Animations are definitely better in Directive 8020, and the density of overall detail is improved. Nothing even remotely justifies the performance delta though. And frankly the depth of field in Directive 8020 looks worse and the shadows do too. DoF doesn't trace in-focus objects as precisely which makes them look more like cutouts. Shadows can look inconsistent and flickery in Directive 8020 but are pretty much perfect in Man of Medan.


A few of my comparison shots:

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Directive 8020

Man of Medan

Dynamic vs. baked lighting. Early DP games are still great looking in many aspects BUT, they have absolutely craptastic SSR, you have to enable (very heavy) RT to get rid of those ugly artifacts.

 

[setoman]

Yes hellblade 2 looks bad, wukong looks ugly, silent hill 2 looks very bad, expedition 33 looks shit, robocop looks shit of shit,saros look shit and upcoming big studios games like Witcher 4,tomb raider, Gears 6,howgrats 2 will look very shit considering their are the best AAA studios that will handle the engine, lol

look, Hellblade 2 is a top 3 best looking game ever. It's a generational defining game.
There's a crash out where when you speak objective truth about Unreal Engine 5, there's two camps of people, people who are just feverish devout fans of Unreal Engine 5, and then people who hate Unreal Engine 5. But the truth is actually in the middle.

Its not the blind love or blind hate people that are right. The truth is that the games that you mentioned, there's only one there that is a generational game. A generational defining game is one you look back on for reference/benchmark.

What you don't realize is that the problem with UE5, is that because all the features have huge overhead costs with them, when you toggle all the features, it makes it impossible to actually create the same kind of game that you see being created by other game studio engines, games like Star Wars Outlaw, Alan Wake 2, Avatar, GTA 6, Resident Evil 7. You're not gonna be able to create these games in UE5 at similar performance levels. But if you constrain the levels to be very small like Hellblade 2, then you absolutely can. But all of the issues with UE5 are real.

You mentioned TR, well lets look at the reveal of Tomb Raider Catalyst. It was garbage. I was very disappointed and it wasn't even gameplay nor realtime. If you look at the Tomb Raider trilogy you see the progression in graphics. This Tomb Raider reveal, there is no progression in graphics. Like, I don't understand how people don't see it.

The remaster of Tomb Raiders doesn't look like a next-gen game. Compare that to, at least, the reveal. All the current demos videos being put out of Assassin's Creed resync? Because I know that's gonna be downgraded when it actually releases, because, you know, Ubisoft does what Ubisoft does. But, if you look at Tomb Raider remake, and you look at Assassin's Creed remake, you see the clear gap. Like it's not even comparable.

Now people are hoping for Witcher 4, Witcher 4, Witcher 4, Witcher 4 to deliver. But Tomb Raider should have been the one that looked like the Lumen in the land of the Nanite demo. Because the Lumen and the Nanite demo was literally based off of Tomb Raiders. So why does it look nothing like it?

Heck it should surpass it in density/quality/lighting of assets as this demo is 6 years old and the engine has significantly improved, instead after 4+ years of full development, we get bad CGI.

I'm telling you that Witcher 4 is not even going to look anything close to what the reveal looked like. It's not going to. It's going to be so downgraded. You guys are going to be shocked. The problem with Unreal Engine 5 is scale. When you add scale to stuff, the performance breaks, If your game is taking place in the hallway/corridor, then fine, you can cram everything in it. But because of the overhead cost of all of these features on Unreal Engine 5, it makes it impossible to scale the engine. The engine is fundamentally flawed.

 

[viveks86]

No matter how many videos i watch about bf, shadows still look better to me.

Maybe Japan is easier to render than rocky islands or just more beatiful of a location.

Isn't it being built by the Singapore studio which did support for the original? That probably has a lot to do with art and asset quality, even if the tech is more advanced than shadows

 

[GymWolf]

Isn't it being built by the Singapore studio which did support for the original? That probably has a lot to do with asset quality, even if the tech is more advanced than shadows

Edit: misread your post, yeah you may be right.

Also, i'm not an expert in light systems like you people but the game look overly bright and colorful, something feels off with how the scene is lit...it doesnt look realistic.

 

[Killer8]

I'm telling you that Witcher 4 is not even going to look anything close to what the reveal looked like. It's not going to. It's going to be so downgraded. You guys are going to be shocked.

It will look that good... on PS6. It will be Cyberspunk all over again (that game eventually looked like a clear upgrade over its pre-release gameplay presentations).

 

[Gonzito]

Let's see the other side of the coin. If it were a male protagonist, would have been a cuck for the witches and do their bidding...People would go crazy about that and a new Gonzito thread

 

[analog_future]

Its not just rt, its path tracing. And like with most path traced games, its likely implemented by nvidia so take it up with them.

From the benchmarks I've seen, hradware lumen in this game is over 60 fps at native 4k which isn't too bad considering man of medan did not have rtgi, only reflections and AO.

I do agree that the game doesn't feel like a big leap over their previous games but that's a developer issue.

No, path tracing is a separate toggle. The performance I shared is only with RT enabled, not PT. With PT I'm sure it'd halve the FPS again, which is frankly ridiculous.

My performance experience is corroborated here:

 

[GymWolf]

I must be the only one who think that w4 doesnt look incredible and unbelievable enough to be hugely downgraded, if it looked better than hb2 or marvel 1986 with an open world scale i could understand the scepticism, but it doesnt...

We know what ue5 can produce with large games like wukong and the game is at least 2-3 years away.

I would be far more scheptic about cd project delivering the city simulation they showed when it is clear after w3 and especially cyberpunk that a living breathing city simulation is not exactly their forte.