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Guerrilla Games: Regarding Killzone Shadow Fall and 1080p
- Thread starter nbnt
- Start date
Actually, plenty of people noticed it was blurry. You can find all kinds of posts about it on this forum ever since the game came out.
Dictator93
Member
No matter how many times people chant this mantra, it does not change what actually happened.
People did notice... they just did not know what was making the game look worse.
The argument that nobody noticed just keeps on trucking. Shows how many people actually read threads they are posting in, since we've had this argument on almost every page of the original thread. If anything, this story is affirms that people notice, because they even noticed it despite being told that the MP was native 1080p.
Solid Samus
Banned
not really... as has been explained repeatedly. The game is still outputting a 1080p image with half of its pixels calculated using past frame data. It's strange but it's not not 1080p so long as it produces a 1:1 1080p image, which it does
Hey, maybe it deserves an asterisk or at least pointed out. But no, this doesn't put every single native 1080p game into question and just saying that makes me wonder if you have even the vague understanding I have on the subject much less any concrete knowledge on it
The "childish gamers" argument. Nice
Gotta love it.
Sword Of Doom
Member
It gorgeous if you're standing still
GoofsterStud
Member
Good response!
I'm OK with them saying 1080p as long as they also mention temporal reprojection.
1080p with temporal reprojection. Works for me. If they don't mention temporal reprojection in the future then I will have a problem.
I'm OK with them saying 1080p as long as they also mention temporal reprojection.
1080p with temporal reprojection. Works for me. If they don't mention temporal reprojection in the future then I will have a problem.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
EatinOlives
Member
Very much appreciated technical explanation. Other developers would've simply ignored the controversy or outright be confrontational about it. Maybe others would've stood ground that the entire pipeline is native 1080p and sit back comfortably knowing that the layman won't ever truly find out the difference.
The fact that they clarified whether or not it's 1080p depending on what we're looking at is especially appreciated. I personally use the latter explanation they gave (entire pipeline at 1080p) so no, I don't consider MP to be native by my definition, but I don't have a problem with it so long as they're upfront about it. I hope they continue to be upfront about it in future games, as they mentioned they would be.
It's a very interesting technique in and of itself. Certainly a lot more involved than the lazier approach of simply lowering the resolution and calling it a day. I believe Gran Turismo 5 used a much simpler implementation of this, along the lines of 960x1080 with just straight up interlaced vertical columns (IIRC), which also ended up looking damn clean. I wonder how much more computationally expensive this technique can get, and if it would be worth optimizing the pipeline proper in the long run.
The fact that they clarified whether or not it's 1080p depending on what we're looking at is especially appreciated. I personally use the latter explanation they gave (entire pipeline at 1080p) so no, I don't consider MP to be native by my definition, but I don't have a problem with it so long as they're upfront about it. I hope they continue to be upfront about it in future games, as they mentioned they would be.
It's a very interesting technique in and of itself. Certainly a lot more involved than the lazier approach of simply lowering the resolution and calling it a day. I believe Gran Turismo 5 used a much simpler implementation of this, along the lines of 960x1080 with just straight up interlaced vertical columns (IIRC), which also ended up looking damn clean. I wonder how much more computationally expensive this technique can get, and if it would be worth optimizing the pipeline proper in the long run.
Hexa
Member
1080tp it is.
Dreams-Visions
Member
It's whatever causes this:
It's really all over and my eyes wanting to focus those areas lead to a number of headaches over the 60 or so hours I played. As I've said before, I learned to live with it by not looking anywhere but straight ahead and relaxing my eyes to a degree, not focusing on anything. Things I've not had to do with any FPS game I've ever played.
If this is just some intentional blur, then I'm okay with their new rendering technique (and not okay with GG's judgement). If this is being caused by the rendering technique, then it must be optimized in the future to prevent this kind of blurring or it must go.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Nah. It's gorgeous all the time. The variable frame rate is the much bigger gripe for me.
That's the unfortunate thing. In their attempt to try and appease the "every game on my $400 console must be 1080p/60fps" crowd, they had to employ this unconventional rendering technique to try and get there, and still came up way short. They should have just locked the framerate at 30, IMO.
rokkerkory
Member
so bascially 1080i doubled pumped? nice!
The blur is motion blur and intentional. The extra aliasing on the ground is likely due to that technique.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Then we'd hear all about how the multiplayer can't manage 60fps (as we currently are).
They gave a perfectly good explanation on what they've done and why they've done it. Don't see why we're now seeming to regress back to where we were with the original thread on this situation with the same people.
It wasn't a perfect solution, but there wasn't one no matter what path they took. I agree with some that this has the potential of being a good technique in dealing with the shortcomings of fixed displays though.
plagiarize
Banned
yep. that's all I'm looking for, going forwards.
Serious questions.
In general, whenever a image is upscaled (or downscaled for that matter) be it by a hardware upscaler or a software solution, does this happen after the image comes out of the framebuffer ?
In the case of KZ MP, is the image coming out of the framebuffer 1080p?
When it comes to the true definition of calling a frame native 1080p in game development, is this applied to the image that comes out the framebuffer?
Thanks in advance.
In general, whenever a image is upscaled (or downscaled for that matter) be it by a hardware upscaler or a software solution, does this happen after the image comes out of the framebuffer ?
In the case of KZ MP, is the image coming out of the framebuffer 1080p?
When it comes to the true definition of calling a frame native 1080p in game development, is this applied to the image that comes out the framebuffer?
Thanks in advance.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Interesting. I dislike both then, but I might be okay with the technique if I could see it without the blur and know for sure if it's one, the other or both giving me headaches.
Even looking at that picture right now makes me feel some rage in my chest, knowing I accepted dealing with that mess for 60 hours...perhaps completely unnecessarily. I wonder why the blur can't be disabled in settings like other similar visual effects like film grain can be in some games? Especially since it's so polarizing.
Das Mookid
Banned
Game looks great.
That said, temporal upscaling is just as much upscaling as spatial upscaling is. It looks better in a static image, but in motion there's a definite blur or looseness to the image.
They raise very fair points regarding many games using non-1080p assets in the chain (lighting etc). At the end of the day, the emotional investment in the topic is more over a technical bragging point than anything else.
That said, temporal upscaling is just as much upscaling as spatial upscaling is. It looks better in a static image, but in motion there's a definite blur or looseness to the image.
They raise very fair points regarding many games using non-1080p assets in the chain (lighting etc). At the end of the day, the emotional investment in the topic is more over a technical bragging point than anything else.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
I spent so much time cleaning my glasses and squinting when playing the MP. Glad to see that I wasn't crazy and that there's a good reason why it all look out of focus and off.
The Maverick
Member
The fact that nobody caught on to this is impressive. Kudos to them coming out and explaining it after the fact. Hoping to see this technique applied in console games to get them up to snuff.
SEGAvangelist
Member
I want to see a direct video comparison (60fps) of a game rendering in 720p side by side with the same game using the KZ method. It's the only way we'll know which is better. KZ is a blurry mess but it seems it could be the motion blur according to what I'm reading here, so I imagine it's a bad example of the technique.
HoodWinked
Member
i know right. kudos for only coming clean after they were caught...
Its okay, but they could atleast say sorry for the confusion and not just make a "We said only the truth" answer (that one sentence doesnt really sound like an apology), because i think a alot of people thought they meant 1920x1020
But its cool they give atleast an detailed answer
But its cool they give atleast an detailed answer
Yes, they "were caught" by DF publishing information given by themselves months ago. Sure...
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I would like to see some 1080p60 footage of the MP too, gamersyde only has SP.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The explanation and the technique are really interesting. I appreciate them taking time to go into it.
Yet I can't help but think: they went this far trying to hit a target framerate, and it's kind of for nothing in practical terms. The multiplayer framerate is jumpy as heck. At that point as a developer, I would have made the call to either turn off some of the pretties and hit 60fps or max out the pretties and lock multiplayer at 30fps.
Yet I can't help but think: they went this far trying to hit a target framerate, and it's kind of for nothing in practical terms. The multiplayer framerate is jumpy as heck. At that point as a developer, I would have made the call to either turn off some of the pretties and hit 60fps or max out the pretties and lock multiplayer at 30fps.
SEGAvangelist
Member
I think they put up a video of this before launch actually.
EDIT:
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_killzone_shadow_fall_multiplayer_video-14800_en.html
SwiftDeath
Member
History pixels is like the greatest term ever lol
Still a bit annoyed about this though
Still a bit annoyed about this though
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Thank you Guerrilla. The people calling it "interlacing" were really bugging me.
Zombie James
Banned
I like how they've taken the time to explain the technique, but with all this detail...
...I have to wonder if just rendering at a slightly lower resolution and upscaling would have been more efficient? This sounds like an awful lot of work to be doing every frame.
...I have to wonder if just rendering at a slightly lower resolution and upscaling would have been more efficient? This sounds like an awful lot of work to be doing every frame.
Yeah, the technique must work better the higher the framerate and wise-versa.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Right. Because it can't. Kinda' was the whole basis for my post.
We've seen this paradigm shift as we transitioned into the new gen where a sizable portion of GAF seem to think they're entitled to 1080p/60 for every game that comes out on their new $400 console, and anything less than that is an epic fail on the part of the developer.
My opinion is that GG tried too hard to please everybody with the MP, and wound up pleasing pretty much no one.
BrainZEROX
Member
Thank you for the explanation Guerrilla, that was a fascinating read.
I wonder if they are forced into the 960x1080 part or if they could have areas where they render every column.
I freeze-framed through some Gamersyde MP footage and knowing the technique I can only find some frames where the close area around the sight of the gun model gives away that this is not a true native 1080p image but rather composited.
If they rendered 20% more around that hot spot would they destroy every benefit because their temporal reprojection also takes computing power?
I freeze-framed through some Gamersyde MP footage and knowing the technique I can only find some frames where the close area around the sight of the gun model gives away that this is not a true native 1080p image but rather composited.
If they rendered 20% more around that hot spot would they destroy every benefit because their temporal reprojection also takes computing power?
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
Complicated? They are explaining it in layman's terms.
Anyway, this is a pretty nifty trick and the results aren't too bad. Still worse than native 1080p for obvious reasons, but interesting nonetheless, and much better than upscaling. I wonder if something similiar could be applied in other platforms.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Glad they came forward with an explanation. Would be great if we could get this pre launch next time.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Wow that's damn impressive tbh. Can't imagine what it took to write that algorithm.
And yeah I'm surprised they explained all this immediately. Might try to catch that talk at GDC
And yeah I'm surprised they explained all this immediately. Might try to catch that talk at GDC
ArkkAngel007
Member
...what difference would it make pre-launch or not?
vpance
Member
Not that the MP community is bustling or anything as a result, but people kind of expect 60 nowadays from their shooters with CoD and BF. The MP could've been written off from the jump otherwise.
WeAreStarStuff
Member
I could explain quantum mechanics in layman's terms, that does not mean that the process itself is not complicated.