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Guerrilla Games: Regarding Killzone Shadow Fall and 1080p
- Thread starter nbnt
- Start date
opticalmace
Member
You should probably check yourself before you wreck yourself.
1080p does not mean native 1080p for games (that's what I'm trying to say)
don't give a sh... about 1080p for BD movies, regardless to the aspect ratio, a BD movie is not rendered but recorded on a certain resolution, there fore there is no link to the term "native"
the term "native" is relevant for games ... and I didn't came up with BD movies in this discussion
"recorded", "rendered".. What difference does that make for your display? Its a fixed pixel based screen that offers the best image quality when it gets a native 1080p image. Thats what native implies, its coupled with the displays own native resolution. The Order, BR movies in wider ratio than 1.78:1 are all in the same native resolution as your full HD display, therefore 1920x1080 pixels that are not upscaled and 1:1 pixel mapped on your screen.
Ok, let's see:
A: 1920x800 game pixles + 1920x280 black pixles (no game info) IS native 1080p
B: 1600x900 game pixles + 320x180 artificial pixles (game info) IS NOT native 1080p
Right?
Both are not RENDERED at native 1080p! That's my point ... and I know A would be sharper than B, but still both are not native 1080p
btw. I don't have a XBO, neither a PS4 so chill out and watch out with your judgement
You're being obtuse.
I enjoy games and tech in equal measures thanks.
I appreciate their transparency here, but I still think it was it misleading of them to have said native 1080p before. The only thing I care about is that the multiplayer portion of the game is just straight up blurry, so I wouldn't call this new rendering technique exactly a success, and I really hope they don't do it in the future.
plagiarize
Banned
that's overly reductive. the same CAN be said for Ryse and BF4 on PS4.
Shadow Fall MP renders a 1080p frame without scaling. It fills in the missing information using a different technique that while still not perfect, gives you 1:1 pixel mapping. each pixel rendered maps to one pixel in the final image. each pixel interpolated maps to one pixel in the final image.
I do think they should have been upfront about this. I do think going forwards anyone using this novel technique should tell us ahead of time, but it isn't the same thing as scaling and in certain circumstances gives you a final image that's close to what you'd expect to see if a game was using traditional rendering techniques to output that 1080p image.
Mr_Appleby
Member
proud enough to dub it "secret sauce" in reference to it's use in reflections, back in may 2013:
http://www.slideshare.net/guerrillagames/killzone-shadow-fall-demo-postmortem slide 84
i think it's a really neat technique myself.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I agree. I found it to be a really informative and respectful response to the (small) controversy it may have caused.
The angry will still anger though.
I honestly can't believe you're being serious, especially with the way these mild grievances were qualified, but I'll humor you. I'll also respect you less in the process:
In an interview: "We've managed native 1080p in single player, and we developed a new rendering process for multiplayer that gives with appearance of 1080p without scaling which allows for higher framerates than in single player. We understand the particular necessity for fast-reactions in competitive games."
On the box: "1080p" because it's factually correct for single player. No need to qualify different modes.
1080p does not mean native 1080p for games (that's what I'm trying to say)
don't give a sh... about 1080p for BD movies, regardless to the aspect ratio, a BD movie is not rendered but recorded on a certain resolution, there fore there is no link to the term "native"
the term "native" is relevant for games ... and I didn't came up with BD movies in this discussion
A BD movie is native 1080p as well. The term just isn't used widely.
But watch it on a 4K TV and it'll get upscaled from 1080p to 4K by the Blu-ray player or TV, similar to the upscaling of a 720p game on a 1080p TV.
Now, if you play a 720p game on a 720p TV then it's running at its native resolution, with no upscaling done by the TV or the console.
Dictator93
Member
How about, instead of listing and using already convoluted terminology (1080p, native, etc..) honest devs just say which resolution they are doing their internal rendering at. In this case, then it is obviously not the same as other games nor the same as the singleplayer.
Why is it so hard for people to say things like this in an obvious manner?
Why is it so hard for people to say things like this in an obvious manner?
MikeHaggar
Member
fair enough. the final frame buffer that the ps4 outputs is native 1080p.
boredandlazy
Member
Did anyone else subconsciously read the entire explanation in Herman Hulst's voice?
Louis Cyphre
Banned
They don't want negative attention like the XBox One is getting so they are trying to put out the fires as early as possible. Trouble is their definition of 1080p is starting to blur the lines which just adds more confusion. The point is the PS4 was having troubles running the game at 60fps (and still does) which is what they wanted for multiplayer, so they had to use some other techniques.
Good question, otherwise they would have done the same for single player.
He1nekenP1ss
Member
GG is known for being open about advanced techniques they are using. They often publish papers or videos from talks:
http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/index.html
http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/index.html
What exactly is pitiful in giving an interested and relevant minority of consumers some information about a product that they are eager to know? What is wrong in being interested in the technology of games as well as the games themselves? What is wrong in interpreting this information and integrating it into a review of a games visual performance which evidently many people care about?
One might say that this is part of selling your product.
Already stepped in it with your post. If you think the KZ SF singelplayer campaign is an example of good storytelling or good level design in videogames then I don't know what to say to you!
Hexa
Member
Considering very few if any games would be 1080p by that requirement, yes.
silver.tongue
Member
The fact that someone that knows nothing about this stuff could understand what he said, is a testament to how great that explanation was.
That's really cool.
That's really cool.
I would add to your first part, "we'll also give them shit if the information they choose to put out is willfully incomplete or misleading," but I agree.
Yes it is, but not native 1080p
yet it is...
silver.tongue
Member
I think they are both OK. Not great, but not bad at all.
Its just a giant proxy war to the real issue of the XB1 hardware performance and the trade offs in its designs. (And ultimately what that means for this gen long term).
Its huge because Penello was allowed to Astroturf here, and plenty of people that understand technical stuff didn't appreciate his bullshit.
The current frenzy upon every release are the sharks smelling blood and sticking it to him. Especially since he owes them an apology (his words).
So doubt is based on not many games delivering that? How is that an argument?
This. Especially the second sentence, although I would add that it didn't start with Albert's infamous post. They started with the ridiculous technology-related nonsense right after the console's reveal, and that's what put them in the line. It's one thing to have a civil discussion about whether the design decisions that defined the console have been good ones and what the console's design implies for future games. It's another thing to be bullshited on this issue, and that's part of the story on how Microsoft earned the ridicule that they have gotten over the lasts months.
If they had said nothing or given responses like the one that we are discussing in this thread, they would not have gotten that much hostility.
Ok, but then how would you describe the difference for 1080p movies which are "real" 1080p and 1080p with black bars, without paying attention to up scaling to 4K.
movie A: 1920x1080 progressive pixels all filled with movie information
movie B: 1920x800 progressive pixels filled with movie info, 280 black bars
Are in your opinion both native 1080p in terms of the movie information, means real pixels holding/displaying the movie information?
Or is that not important to you and the only think that counts to describe it as native 1080p is the "real" resolution of the movie including all black bars?
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I think Dark touched on this but the whole reason people "expect" certain things out of "native 1080p" in the first place is because there is a "Non Native 1080p", which is scaled to fit TVs that have native resolutions of 1080p, and therefore looks like shit.
If it didn't, no one would know or care about 1080p being "native" or not.
So now we have this technique, that outputs a final resolution of 1080p, not upscaled, and still people complain, even though the reason they wanted native 1080p in the first place is resolved here. This is more about renderering tequniques and AA than resoltion. The fact that most everyone thought it WAS native 1080p with slightly less soft AA solution is proof of this.
Sure it causes some visual errors, but complaining it is not "native 1080p" is kind of silly, because for all the reasons that "native 1080p" is even a phrase, it is. Now if you dislike the way the game gets there, fine, argue that, but don't argue it isn't 1080p native. Otherwise, when you see explosions in games that are not rendered at 1080p, or shadows, or anything else that we see in almost every game in existence, you should cry foul there too.
/iPad rant.
If it didn't, no one would know or care about 1080p being "native" or not.
So now we have this technique, that outputs a final resolution of 1080p, not upscaled, and still people complain, even though the reason they wanted native 1080p in the first place is resolved here. This is more about renderering tequniques and AA than resoltion. The fact that most everyone thought it WAS native 1080p with slightly less soft AA solution is proof of this.
Sure it causes some visual errors, but complaining it is not "native 1080p" is kind of silly, because for all the reasons that "native 1080p" is even a phrase, it is. Now if you dislike the way the game gets there, fine, argue that, but don't argue it isn't 1080p native. Otherwise, when you see explosions in games that are not rendered at 1080p, or shadows, or anything else that we see in almost every game in existence, you should cry foul there too.
/iPad rant.
Mr_Appleby
Member
because internal rendering can happen in multiple resolutions before the final image is composited. in this case the final output is an unscaled 1080p image. that is undisputable, the image simply is not scaled. guessing at the position of the moved pixels is part of the rendering technique, and it's a process that is used to fill a 1080p buffer.
some pixels are old pixels. so what? many animated gifs and video compression techniques only update the parts of the image that moves. if i encode a 1080p video, lets say a shot of people talking in a room, and the environment around them does not move for some frames, and hence is not updated meaning we reuse the old pixels, is that now not a 1080p image because of that?
you can't put these sorts of things into easily "obvious" statements because they are simply non-obvious. scaling is easily understood - "we render smaller, then stretch" - but this is more like video compression - "we render some of a 1080p image, and fill the gaps based on guessing where parts of the old image have moved to."
they are both 1080p, shot in different aspect ratios
Its great to hear an actual response from GG.
A part of me is curious about whether this technique was actually developed by them on the fly as a last ditch effort to boost framerate or not. I wonder if it's possible that this was something being worked on for a long time internally at Sony as part of their VR goggle project. I mean they have to have something tricky under there sleeve somewhere to ease the burden of aiming for 60fps for the purpose of VR simulation, right?
A part of me is curious about whether this technique was actually developed by them on the fly as a last ditch effort to boost framerate or not. I wonder if it's possible that this was something being worked on for a long time internally at Sony as part of their VR goggle project. I mean they have to have something tricky under there sleeve somewhere to ease the burden of aiming for 60fps for the purpose of VR simulation, right?
I know that, but I was thinking of something else. Let me try again
Both Killzone and Ryse/BF4(PS4 ver) render half of needed pixels for native 1080p.
Other half is in KZ case calculated from last two frames and in Ryse/BF4 pixels are calculated from current frame (from nearby pixels).
So at the end all 3 games output 1920x1080 frame, all 3 only render half of the pixel and calculate other half (but with different algorithm).
But by some the KZ solution is considered native 1080p and other two are not.
Why is that?
BibiMaghoo
Member
This is not correct. The reason people want native is for clarity of image. This technique does not produce the same clarity of image, and is therefore not only inferior, but does not solve the issue of a lesser image quality than native.
It looks good. They've sold you. They should not be obligated to divulge their techniques to appease a rabid, and often unpredictable, subset of users.
Knowing how they render a 1080p image is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and does nothing to improve ones enjoyment of the game. 1080p does not make a game more fun, longer, better written, etc.
People "care" only because they have lost sight of the most important metric by which all Videogames should be measured: am I enjoying this?
If yes, all the PR in the world means jack shit.
If no, all the PR in the world STILL means jack shit, because you won't be playing it.
It's a silly reason to have huge discussions, debates, fling insults, or lambast a team of people for (laughing at this) "lying" to the "community".
Always-honest
Banned
Yeah same here. Nice dutch honestly and rationality there.
Who gives a shit...
As long as the overall result is a game that pleases to the eye... it shouldn't bother any of us what resolution the MP runs at.
I own an Xbox One personally. But, from what I've seen... games on both the Xbox One and the PS4 look great - regardless of rez or frame rate.
That is all that matters.
I mean, one of my favourite games of all time was Jeff Minters 'Matrix' on the Commodore VIC-20 (with a 16k RAM pack I might add). Graphics were blocky as hell... but the gameplay was edge of your seat stuff (made you sweat).
People are moaning about 'missing a few pixels'. FFS... a few pixels is ALL we had in those days.
We play games to enjoy them - not to bloody analyse every nerdy technical detail.
FFS
As long as the overall result is a game that pleases to the eye... it shouldn't bother any of us what resolution the MP runs at.
I own an Xbox One personally. But, from what I've seen... games on both the Xbox One and the PS4 look great - regardless of rez or frame rate.
That is all that matters.
I mean, one of my favourite games of all time was Jeff Minters 'Matrix' on the Commodore VIC-20 (with a 16k RAM pack I might add). Graphics were blocky as hell... but the gameplay was edge of your seat stuff (made you sweat).
People are moaning about 'missing a few pixels'. FFS... a few pixels is ALL we had in those days.
We play games to enjoy them - not to bloody analyse every nerdy technical detail.
FFS
Nope.
Well, maybe, if you agree a puddle and the Atlantic Ocean are both "bodies of water".
Upscaling doesn't take any resources and is blending; ie its not an accurate way to increase the resolution of the image in the framebuffer. In fact it has the same effect as applying a blur filter. You're always going to lose clarity with a vanilla upscale or applying blur.
GG's method actually reproduces a 1080P image when nothing changes. It drops from there based on how many pixles are in motion and how well they can be predicted. Its resource intensive and much more accurate.
If you're sitting at a cap point, slowly scanning, and waiting for someone attacking, you're probably getting 95% of an accurate 1080P image. If you're spinning like a top in a hail of animated explosions, probably a lot less.
I'd be interested to know how well this prediction works, what errors we're seeing, and what/how often you see the worse case resolution.
A 1080p TV with a resolution of 1920 x 1080 has a total of 2,073,600 pixels.
A 1080p Blu-ray movie with a resolution of 1920 x 1080 has a total of 2,073,600 pixels, regardless of if it has black bars like movies made for the cinema or no black bars like direct-to-DVD movies.
This equals to a true 1:1 pixel mapping, also known as native 1080p.
A game that renders internally at 1920 x 1080 / 1920 x 800 with 280px black bars is native as well, as it maintains the 1:1 pixel mapping with 2,073,600 pixels.
A game that renders internally at 1280 x 720 is not native on a 1080p TV, as it only has 921,600 pixels and thus no 1:1 pixel mapping. To add: In order to reach the 1:1 pixel mapping, the console/Blu-ray player/TV has to interpolate the missing pixels based on the information of neighboring pixels. The result is usually a blurry mess.
BRocknRolla
Member
That's a quality and indepth response. It's good that they explained themselves and the technique.
However, I do think they were well aware that they weren't being totally honest about MP. They knew how others defined native 1080p, and chose to let people think that's what they meant. I'm not a fan of that. Devs should be clear up front so that things aren't latter discovered. If some crazy technique is being used, explain it an the benefits. That's not so much to ask.
However, I do think they were well aware that they weren't being totally honest about MP. They knew how others defined native 1080p, and chose to let people think that's what they meant. I'm not a fan of that. Devs should be clear up front so that things aren't latter discovered. If some crazy technique is being used, explain it an the benefits. That's not so much to ask.
maverick40
Junior Member
See this is how you respond in a professional way. Well done GG and congrats on the game.
Cool, then again the XBO outputs 1920x1080 progressive pixels for each game, so the TV can display it 1:1, means at it is the best quality because its coupled with the displays own native resolution . Great!
So are all XBO games native 1080p or not ?
If not, they neither is the order native 1080p ... and don't mind if you agree or not anymore
And there is a difference in the terms "rendered" and "recorded"&"displayed" because as you see XBO games are rendered only at lower res than 1080p but are displayed at 1080p (in your opinion this would be even native 1080p)
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Clarity of image is too vague.
The image scaling is gone, which is what caused the clarity to diminish on non native 1080p games.
AA also effects image clarity, one could argue this is more closely related to an AA debate than a resolution one. Though really, this is a completely new situation.
Basically, if people have a problem with this solution, fine, but saying "but it isn't native 1080p" are likely missing the point.
Yes there's doubt because you can probably count on two hands the number of games that use the final buffer resolution on every buffer in the pipeline.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
So are you all saying that contrary to what we've been told lately... P's do actually matter?
Someone tell Game Informer.
Someone tell Game Informer.
EmptySpace
Banned
because as they said, some games render other things on the pipeline like lighting, etc. as non native 1080p but those games still get called 1080p native.
in short, nothing is technically 1080p unless everything that it renders on screen is 1080p.
TheRealTalker
Banned
In depth explanation
I wonder if they would be able to bring it to native emres if they applied a locked 30fps?
... Likely
Anyone going to their presser at gdc?
Could you ask the question that if they could give the option in a patch?
Of course as an option in the menu screen
I wonder if they would be able to bring it to native emres if they applied a locked 30fps?
... Likely
Anyone going to their presser at gdc?
Could you ask the question that if they could give the option in a patch?
Of course as an option in the menu screen
SolidusDave
Member
This is probably the most important thing for the definition of native 1080p. Go down that road and there would be few games left that have "all parts of the rendering pipeline" rendered in 1080p as they call it in the OP.
Imagine if we start marking each game... "1080p*# *explosions usually scaled between 720p&900p #dynamic shadows rendered at 770p"
Who should check each game for that anyway.
The only thing I could see is that KZ applies it to the whole image and not a particular effect. On the other hand, those effects at the end would not look like native 1080p unless they used similar techniques, so that's even worse and yet no one would not count such a game as native 1080p.