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Gunvalkrie appreciation thread of control-scheme apologetics

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Lots of people seem to hate on this game because of the controls, which in a way I understand, but I am of the opinion that the controls are what make the game awesome. This is what I don't think people "get" about the game. The entire game design revolves around not being good at the controls at first, and slowly mastering them, much like learning a musical instrument. The controls being hard to master isn't because some game designer couldn't think of easier ways for the player to get their character from point A to point B, it's what the entire game is about. This is similar to NiGHTS, where some people just couldn't understand why the enemies were sparse with very little AI, when that's not what the game was about.

Why i like Gunvalkrie's controls:
The control scheme is very hard at first to "get". The game starts out with a level that is pretty hard that forces you to become somewhat comfortable with the controls in order to pass. As the levels progress the game awards you with more abilities as the controls become more intuitive in a way that is extremely satisfying. If you started out the game with maximum capabilities you wouldn't know what to do with them, the greater abilities pretty much require a certain level of expertise, but once you are at that level, the new abilities allow for MUCH more freedom of movement in a way that feels much more active than your typical "I got a more powerful gun, but the enemies now have more hit points". Some of the levels designs are genius, forcing mastery of the controls and newly gained abilities in really, really creative and active ways. I almost want to compare it to Metroid in that sense, but the game plays nothing like a Metroid game. For instance there are levels where you're basically in freefall for just about the entire level, and you really have to use the controls to their maximum. There are levels where you are platforming upward for what seems like miles, and you have to use some problem solving to find ways to get your jetpack to the next platform. The end result is that by the end of the game you feel a sense of accomplishment that is not present in any other game i've played.

Graphics:
Awesome(for the time, obviously). The player controlled characters have superb animation and look incredible. The awesome animation actually helps put you into the game. There are some great effects, and I think to that point in the xbox's lifespan, it was one of the best looking games out. The drawbacks are sub par enemy design and the environments can get somewhat repetitive.

Sound:
If you like "old" Sega music, you'll love the soundtrack to this game. One of the biggest reasons for me being a Sega fanatic back in the day was that that their older Saturn and Genesis games had incredible soundtracks. To me this game is no different, and brought back some of those memories. The music perfectly fits the space/exploration theme of the game.

I don't think the game has a ton of lasting appeal, it's more one of those games that after you beat it, you might pick it up a year later and play through it again, but the first playthrough is great. If you can get past the idea that the controls NEED to be intuitive immediately in order for a game to be fun, you'll like this game. I would actually agree with that sentiment for most all types of games, but this is an exception, I feel, because the other game mechanics and level design are not at all like most games, and are built to perfectly complement the controls. If you put these controls in a typical platformer or shooter I would probably throw the disc immediately into the trash, they wouldn't make any sense in that context. Smilebit knew exactly what they were doing, they were an amazing dev team. People just "get" this game because of ingrained preconceptions or because they didn't give it much of a chance.
 
So say we all!

really, i wish they would have gone with the controls that were later used in Otogi (similar idea, better execution), but GV continues to be a favorite of mine
 
This game was about its control scheme in the best possible way.

I loved it. You're a fumbling idiot at the beginning, and you're 50-chaining the final boss at the end. Probably the best Sega game on the Xbox, and one of the Xbox's best games right up there with Phantom Dust and NGB.
 
Gunvalkyrie's control scheme is fucking genius unless you're one of those down syndrome chimps who never bother to actually LEARN how to play a game and prefer to watch an interactive movie.

Oh and this game NEEDS to be added to the 360 BC list, but I'm not holding my breath honestly.
 
I miss the old Sega and smilebit :(

I have no idea why they did bc for shit no one cares about like barbie horseriding or whatever. No one's fucking playing that shit. They'd get more appreciation for less popular games that have more of a cult following.
 
Dang - this thread made me dust off my old copy. I may have to also dig up my JSRF and PDO - such goodness from Smilebit. I keep telling myself that someday they'll be back in some form.
 
Timedog said:
I have no idea why they did bc for shit no one cares about like barbie horseriding or whatever. No one's fucking playing that shit. They'd get more appreciation for less popular games that have more of a cult following.

It wasn't so much that they TRIED to make those horrible games BC on the 360. It was more that, in satisfying the BC gods in regards to other, better games, some of those other shitpacks started working too, probably due to similar architecture or development tools, etc...
 
Mejilan said:
It wasn't so much that they TRIED to make those horrible games BC on the 360. It was more that, in satisfying the BC gods in regards to other, better games, some of those other shitpacks started working too, probably due to similar architecture or development tools, etc...
Do they even have anyone working on new BC titles anymore? When's the last time they did a bc update?
 
I approve. Gunvalkyrie is the best 3d shooter of all time, 3rd or 1st person. I enjoyed the challenge of getting used to the controls and how awesome they are when mastered. But for me the highlight of the game was how the focus was on movement and positioning rather than constant precision aiming. If more 3d shooters would follow in its footsteps, the genre would be a lot more appealing.
 
It's a really cool game, but I still think the controls are unnecessarily difficult to grapple with. For me the real kicker is having to click on the analog stick while also independently controlling the direction of each one. I don't buy that there couldn't have been a simpler control scheme that would have been equally as effective, particularly since the game started its life on the one analog stick DC. I agree with whoever mentioned Otogi. That game took the basic concept of keeping your character aloft with a standard move set and made it more refined and accessible.

Overwrought control scheme aside, the game is really solid, and the concept is awesome. Smilebit was definitely an unsung hero last gen. As for my qualms with the controls, if nothing else I was able to nab it for only a few dollars because of the incredibly steep learning curve. I would recommend doing the same to anyone with some spare change and the patience to wrestle with their xbox controller for a while before getting to the meat of the experience. I would love to see a slightly more streamlined sequel.
 
It's a really cool game, but I still think the controls are unnecessarily difficult to grapple with. For me the real kicker is having to click on the analog stick while also independently controlling the direction of each one. I don't buy that there couldn't have been a simpler control scheme that would have been equally as effective, particularly since the game started its life on the one analog stick DC. I agree with whoever mentioned Otogi. That game took the basic concept of keeping your character aloft with a standard move set and made it more refined and accessible.

Overwrought control scheme aside, the game is really solid, and the concept is aweome. If nothing else I was able to nab it for only a few dollars because of the incredibly steep learning curve. I would love to see a slightly more streamlined sequel.

Honestly, the only improvement I would want would be the clicks transferred to LB and RB on a modern controller. Pressing an analog stick in and a direction is initially sloppy and uncomfortable. At the same time, though, I think Otogi is far too simple and dull when compared to Gunvalkyrie. It's not what I would want.
 
The only thing I remember about this game is never hearing about it, then seeing it getting a 9.0 at IGN and thinking "hey I could use an Xbox game". Then I bought it and it was probably my worst purchase of all time. I didn't know what the hell was going on, what I was doing, why I was doing it.

Sorry, I know this is an appreciation thread and all.....but I have no appreciation for this game
and Gunvalkyrie threads are few and far between so I can bitch here
. Waste of my money.
 
Timedog said:
Do they even have anyone working on new BC titles anymore? When's the last time they did a bc update?

I imagine that they're long since done. Now it's just a matter of (very slowly) adding to the XBox Originals catalog of downloads, I would think.
 
The Faceless Master said:
configuration apologists need to just admit that the control scheme sucked.

the game was great DESPITE the terrible controls, not because of them.

Minus one platforming level towards the end of the game, it would have been incredibly easy and even a bit bland(character designs and level repetitiveness) with a traditional control scheme. I mean, the enemies had very little AI. They would have had to completely change the game into something a lot more traditional in order to make better than average, and you wouldn't get the same feeling from mastering the controls. The game was built completely around the controls.
 
Llyranor said:
Darn it, why did I read up on this game? Now I find myself wanting to play it, but without 360-BC, :( :( :(

Watch the video in the link like 5 posts up if you want to see some awesome control mastery and how your player moves.
 
awesome game!
best on xb1 for sure...

complaining about the controls is like complaining about an old skool, gated triple-H manual trans in a lambo..
 
Timedog said:
Minus one platforming level towards the end of the game, it would have been incredibly easy and even a bit bland(character designs and level repetitiveness) with a traditional control scheme. I mean, the enemies had very little AI. They would have had to completely change the game into something a lot more traditional in order to make better than average, and you wouldn't get the same feeling from mastering the controls. The game was built completely around the controls.
I agree the game was built around the controls, the shit controls that should have been better thought out.

I enjoyed what I played of the game and yes you can do some interesting stuff, but the controls were shit and if the controls hamfisted the level and AI guys into making boring ass levels and crap AI than its even more shameful that they weren't rethought.
 
REAL men play Gunvalkyrie!

It's like an old school game in terms of difficulty, even the first levels are on a strict time limit. It can be a frustrating game but you get an incredible sense of achievement when you do finish the levels due to this.

Dare I say I'd like to see a sequel?
 
sechsterangriff said:
Don't forget it started as a Dreamcast game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zyeBm1z__E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCkSijkjmLA

Some really amazing graphics for the time.


And don't forget how fucking different it was story wise. I mean steampunk bionic armorsuits, genetic engineering and space travel in in the 19th century, your sister is just a head, and one of the most disturbing last bosses ever!

Holy shit! This is why I pop into GAF far more often that I should. Never knew this started off on the Dreamcast.
 
I have this game sitting in my game shelf right now.

Man... there are just so many random awesome obscure games that came out for the Xbox.

GunValkyrie, Otogi, Kingdom Under Fire, Panzer Dragoon Orta (not "obscure" but you know), Phantom Dust, Phantom Crash.

Thankfully I have most of them sitting in my game shelf right now :)

As for GV itself, the way I'd characterize the game is UNCOMPROMISING. Sure the controls could have been streamlined, but it would have come at a cost. Sure, the setting and atmosphere could have been made more comprehensible, but that would have come at a cost.

Completing that game by fighting a giant angel baby while flying around this game world was the penultimate culmination of pure uncompromising vision. And for those that GOT IT... the experience is hard to match in the gaming world.

Oh, and this game CAN BE LEARNED even by casuals. I lent the game to my friend, but first explained and showed him HOW to play it. He then took it and was able to finish the game, and enjoyed himself thoroughly. So, the controls were approachable, you just had to let go of your preconceived notions of how games SHOULD control, and just accept what they did.
 
Omar Ismail said:
I have this game sitting in my game shelf right now.

Man... there are just so many random awesome obscure games that came out for the Xbox.

GunValkyrie, Otogi, Kingdom Under Fire, Panzer Dragoon Orta (not "obscure" but you know), Phantom Dust, Phantom Crash.

Thankfully I have most of them sitting in my game shelf right now :)
Oh for sure. The original xbox was a better system than the top 10 monthly software sales charts might have you believe.

Omar Ismail said:
Oh, and this game CAN BE LEARNED even by casuals. I lent the game to my friend, but first explained and showed him HOW to play it. He then took it and was able to finish the game, and enjoyed himself thoroughly. So, the controls were approachable, you just had to let go of your preconceived notions of how games SHOULD control, and just accept what they did.
I bought it for my friend for his birthday. He was frustrated, so I came over and showed him how to play and what I could do having mastered the controls and he ended up giving it another shot and really liking it.
 
Yeah this game was rad, and when you mastered the controls (which definitely took less than an hour you manbabies) it was really awesome. The lack of great games like this, otogi, steel battalion, phantom dust, etc is why the xbox 360 is such a failure in my eyes compared to the original. xbox 1 was dreamcast 2. xbox 2 is... fps box 2.
 
Loved it despite the controls. The idea was brilliant, but something about reliably coordinating and timing the press of the click was pretty annoying. It also totally wrecked a controller of mine. Kinda wished we could see a version on the 360 with that button moved to a bumper.

Yet still, old school arcad glory with crazy 3D visuals. Does anyone remember the original designs for the game on the DC where you would control your character with the pad on the lightgun and use the lightgun to aim? That concept sounded cool to. It also annoyed the shit out of me when reviews tried to "Fix" the issue by suggesting the jet button be moved to the A button, which would make you unable to aim as you jetted. I really hate it when reviewers try to be Jr. Game designers. That said, I'm going to be a fucking hypocrite and say I would love to see it on the 360 using the bumpers as a compromise, but the xbox controls were really the best they could do with the controller at the time (should have been a PS game?)

Man, I miss crazy experimentative sega games.
 
You know, I don't like this game, but I'm not going to use an appreciation thread to bash it.

However, I will say that the controls could have been set up in a completely different way while keeping the core gameplay intact.
 
I definitely bought it at launch and sort of hated it because I was terrible at it, and later on in the Xbox's life I returned to it determined to do better and it just clicked. Awesome game but definitely not for everyone.

It was also part of the reason I picked up an Xbox, along with Orta and JSRF. Still bums me out all three games probably sold very poorly, as (eventually) I loved all three.

Last comment about it from me is that I really loved the atmosphere the game had. The outdoor levels really felt weird and alien (at the time) and I totally dug it.
 
It's funny seeing a thread like this with so many positive impressions of the game. This is the epitome of a polarizing game. Either you love it and think it's one of the top 5 best games on Xbox, or you hate it and say the controls ruined the game.

I was hyped on this game based on Smilebit's track record and the look of the previews. I was a big time proponent of this game on GAF before it came out, and loved it after playing it. Yet in the official thread there was a lot of backlash, because it felt like the majority of people here hated the game and wanted to return it. There were some who got it and came to grips with the controls, but there were far more who thought it would have been better with more conventional controls. I think changing the control scheme would have drastically compromised the play experience, but making them that challenging at the same time made the game inaccessible to many players, which is why we will never see a sequel to this game.
 
For my excuse of hating this game at first is because the first time i played it i had the original xbox controller, the big one. Rented it a couple of years later with the S-controller and loved it a lot more and could actually play decently. Never finished it though and i kinda wished it would be BC on 360, rather than the pile of crap they bother BC'ing.
 
I dunno I think relying on the click sticks for certain critical moves is still a bit sketchy. There is no other logical place to put them, however. It's almost as if the game demands its own custom controller.

I wouldn't be surprised if it started out as an arcade game.

I still love it, though. I honestly never got around to mastering the game, but I got pretty far with it.
 
I dont remember but, did the dreamcast analog stick even click? It started as a DC game, i wonder what control layout they had.
 
Gunvalkyrie was such an awesome game. These days I think I prefer Phantom Dust by a hair just because I'm too out of practice and used to 'standard' game controls to play GV competantly, but those two are still my absolute favourite games from the entire last console generation.

The controls are the absolute best part, to me. They're ridiculously well-suited for the gameplay, and back when I played the game a lot, they became second-nature in a way that I don't think any other game ever really has for me. The best part is that you can only get better at playing Gunvalkyrie by playing Gunvalkyrie. Your Halo/whatever other standard FPS/TPS skills just don't apply, and offhand I can't think of any games where your skills would transfer over. If your favourite part of playing video games is learning the games you play, it's an absolute must-own.
That said, I do kind of wish that they let you invert the Y-axis on the right analog stick. Back when it was new it wasn't an issue, because I played with it inverted all the time, but these days I don't and trying to rewire myself keeps me from getting back into it.


RIP Smilebit :(

Edit: Screw it, I'm getting behind this thread in a big way.
<---
 
Loved the game, still have it stored away with all my other old non-b.c. Xbox faves. Still, my enthusiasm for the game is unusually and very specifically tied to the stout original Xbox controller.

The stronger analog sticks with very solid click feedback worked much better for me than the comparably weak S controller sticks and their similarly weak shallow click response (and by extension the 360 controller). If I weren't already holding onto my original Xbox controller for racing games, I would have done so just for GV. Just in case I ever get around to playing it again on an Xbox.
 
Tain said:
This game was about its control scheme in the best possible way.

I loved it. You're a fumbling idiot at the beginning, and you're 50-chaining the final boss at the end. Probably the best Sega game on the Xbox, and one of the Xbox's best games right up there with Phantom Dust and NGB.

Much agreed, except you forgot Panzer Dragoon Orta in there :D

Gunvalkyrie was easily in the top 5 for me on the Xbox, everything about it was just so great. I LOVED chaining entire levels and never having to land at the end of the game with the level 3 or 4 suit, whatever that crazy angel suit was. Awesome game, glad to see appreciation for it outside of myself :lol
 
I never thought the control scheme was that hard to get used to. If anything I blame the level designers for making levels that were completely the opposite of what the game was about. Still a really fun game though.
 
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