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[Jack_AG]

I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem there're many, mostly because some are planning/thinking on playing on the US server

I would think the only bonus for sticking on a US server would be WvW? I believe you can "guest" for any other type of activity from PvE to sPvP if my memory serves me correct.

 

[Naito]

I would think the only bonus for sticking on a US server would be WvW? I believe you can "guest" for any other type of activity from PvE to sPvP if my memory serves me correct.

Most of the GAF guild will be on US server, so it makes sense that if you want to do and perform well in WvW you'd join there.
But I think we don't have exact numbers on the US and EU guild size yet, do we?

 

[Syrionus]

Looking forward to release. #addme

 

[Retro]

But I think we don't have exact numbers on the US and EU guild size yet, do we?

Nope, we haven't been tracking EU vs. NA members. Based on feedback and stuff in the thread I don't think we have more than a dozen EU players.

That, plus non-existent latency issues, is one of the reasons we're considering just skipping the idea of an EU server and just having GAF roll on one server. Watch this space for more details, we're still mulling it over and getting feedback on latency during the BWEs (but so far it seems like ArenaNet has some kind of netcode voodoo going on).

 

[Naito]

I wouldn't mind playing with a united GAF guild on a main US server since, so far, it looks it would be a hell of a fun.
The guesting's possibility is also nice to play with your other/rl friends in case.

What I'm most worried about are the potential issues tied to the different timezones: some important events ingame
may happen with US timezones, rightfully, in mind, which in return would mean that Europeans, and everybody else,
would get screwed.

There's also the fact that when American players will log in, for Europeans ones could be time to log off or have little time
to share, play with the other guildmates.

I guess it would be helpful to discuss about it in case we'll end up with one big guild.
In any case, I'd support an EU GAF guild in case it's decided there won't be a unified one.

 

[Retro]

What I'm most worried about are the potential issues tied to the different timezones: some important events ingame may happen with US timezones, rightfully, in mind, which in return would mean that Europeans, and everybody else, would get screwed.

If I remember right, one of the stress tests was purposely done at an odd time for the NA servers, which ended up being prime time for EU. ArenaNet has a HUGE following in Europe (Germany especially) so I doubt they would schedule events that screw Europeans out of the experience.

There's also the fact that when American players will log in, for Europeans ones could be time to log off or have little time to share, play with the other guildmates.

Yep, there is definitely the issue of say, 2AM on US East Coast (which is when I usually head to bed) being 7AM GMT. But as a guild, we're already dealing with those time differences anyways. The only thing that affects is who you get to play with during your peak hours. With guesting, PVE and sPVP should be more than fine, nut with WvW you may face smaller than expected crowds.

I guess it would be helpful to discuss about it in case we'll end up with one big guild.

Well, we're all in one big guild anyways. There isn't an EU GAF and a NA GAF guild. Everyone is in the same guild regardless of server. The only thing everyone rolling on an NA server changes is the potential for latency (which seems to be low) and World Vs. World.

 

[Piecake]

Well, we're all in one big guild anyways. There isn't an EU GAF and a NA GAF guild. Everyone is in the same guild regardless of server. The only thing everyone rolling on an NA server changes is the potential for latency (which seems to be low) and World Vs. World.

If we do that, I think rolling on a high pop server (not a WvW Alliance dominated server) might be a better choice. True, NA GAF might have to do with some WvW queues, especially in the beginning, but Euro GAF would presumably be able to play WvW in their primetime and have a decent server pop on.

I think it would be kinda crappy to ask Euro gaf to roll on a mid-pop NA server when that server's WvW might be dead at their primetime

 

[Retro]

If we do that, I think rolling on a high pop server (not a WvW Alliance dominated server) might be a better choice. True, NA GAF might have to do with some WvW queues, especially in the beginning, but Euro GAF would presumably be able to play WvW in their primetime and have a decent server pop on.

I think it would be kinda crappy to ask Euro gaf to roll on a mid-pop NA server when that server's WvW might be dead at their primetime

Yeah, we're not opposed to a higher population server, but we'd like to avoid the very high and Full servers. We're not going to pick one with the least number of players on it, but we want to avoid being on one with the most.

 

[Naito]

Well, we're all in one big guild anyways. There isn't an EU GAF and a NA GAF guild. Everyone is in the same guild regardless of server. The only thing everyone rolling on an NA server changes is the potential for latency (which seems to be low) and World Vs. World.

You're right, I forgot that, even if we play on different continents and servers, we'll be in the same entity of GAF guild, which is very sweet.

Using proper terms, I was adressing the problem for some of us Europeans in settling on a US home server.
Latency is certainly another main topic but I saw reports that it wasn't noticeable, at least back then in the last BWE.

 

[Retro]

Latency is certinaly another main topic but I saw reports that it wasn't noticeable, at least back then in the last BWE.

Yep, we've been looking at Reddit, somebody posted some quotes from SA, and we've had some GAFers trying it too. The general consensus seems to be that latency is a non-issue.

 

[Spookie]

That, plus non-existent latency issues, is one of the reasons we're considering just skipping the idea of an EU server and just having GAF roll on one server. Watch this space for more details, we're still mulling it over and getting feedback on latency during the BWEs (but so far it seems like ArenaNet has some kind of netcode voodoo going on).

My issue with that is simple, while it brings GAF together who the hell am I going to do events with if half the server is asleep or in work? Launch day pops won't stick and my fear is I'll be struggling to solo many events post the opening weeks.

 

[GasProblem]

My issue with that is simple, while it brings GAF together who the hell am I going to do events with if half the server is asleep or in work? Launch day pops won't stick and my fear is I'll be struggling to solo many events post the opening weeks.

You can guest on EU servers.

 

[Spookie]

You can guest on EU servers.

But I can't guess on EU for WvW though.

I don't know though, I've had so many bad experiences in the past choosing the wrong servers for an MMO it's frustrating.

 

[Naito]

But I can't guess on EU for WvW though.

I don't know though, I've had so many bad experiences in the past choosing the wrong servers for an MMO it's frustrating.

It's not definitive, but plans are to roll on the same US home server so that we can have our chances in WvWvW and a unified guild.
We don't have exact numbers, but looking at the responses so far, there aren't many GAF Europlayers starting on EU servers since most of the bulk will be on the US one.

Some facts:
. as for last BWE reports, latency doesn't look like a major issue for both PvE and WvWvW;
. as already mentioned, you can guest on EU servers in case you wish to play, except for WvWvW, with other acquaintances that are based there;
. there's definitely the issue of different timezones: US players would log in when EU's will log off and viceversa. A solution could be to guest on EU servers while doing mostly PvE;
. being on the same home server could potentially make WvWvW more fun/productive.


I'm not entirely convinced on playing on a US home server, mostly because it will be a first to me.
But I'm not against the idea, nor I would with rolling on a EU home server with other eurogaffers.

I guess we'll have a clearer scenario in the coming weeks.

 

[Retro]

Part of the problem is that we don't have a clear picture of how many potential European players we have. If it's a dozen, I have a feeling you guys will be somewhat lonely on your server.

Maybe go back and edit your #addme post to include #eu so we can find you quickly?

 

[Lirlond]

I have several rl friends who might not like jumping on a us server, hell getting them on the right eu server was a struggle.

Are you sure the latency troubles will continue to be nonexistent when the player count goes up?

 

[Silphonica]

I'll be fucking about on whatever the server we have is. Don't care, I work sporadic shifts anyway so sometimes I'm up late at night and shit anyway.

Scotland Represent.

#addme

 

[Naito]

I have several rl friends who might not like jumping on a us server, hell getting them on the right eu server was a struggle.

Are you sure the latency troubles will continue to be nonexistent when the player count goes up?

My rl friends don't see a reason to have their home server on a US one, it's reasonable enough.
I wouldn't have one too, if not for GAF guild. I guess it's mainly down to playing with GAF in WvWvW or not.

The latency has been reported to be fine, it's a positive thing but it's not 100% accurate or definitive.

Part of the problem is that we don't have a clear picture of how many potential European players we have. If it's a dozen, I have a feeling you guys will be somewhat lonely on your server.

Maybe go back and edit your #addme post to include #eu so we can find you quickly?

That is right, atm we don't even have a clear idea on how many of us Europeans are going to join GAF guild (actually, not even for US side).
The amount could definitely help to define better this matter on US/EU home server for us of the old continent. As you said, if we're a dozen
there's little point on partecipating WvWvW on our own (doesn't mean that it wouldn't be fun, but results would be hard to come I bet).

I did a quickly check, but as you pointed out, people should add #EU to have the most complete picture possible.
This is a list of the gaffers (24) that have specified EU in their post:

Anilusion
Bufbaf (will settle in a deutsch server with friends)
Computer
froliq
Gromph
Hasardeur
John Malkovich
Keasar
Kem0sabe
Kntj
Lirlond
Maiger
Melhisedek
Mulligan
Nahkarankaisja
Naito
Naxx
ne1
Neckbeard69
pleunv
Ryökäle
Silphonica
Spookie
tachiSama
Wes

EDIT: list updated

 

[Piecake]

My rl friends don't see a reason to have their home server on a US one, it's reasonable enough.
I wouldn't have one too, if not for GAF guild. I guess it's mainly down to playing with GAF in WvWvW or not.

The latency has been reported to be fine, it's a positive thing but it's not 100% accurate or definitive.




That is right, atm we don't even have a clear idea on how many of us Europeans are going to join GAF guild (actually, not even for US side).
The amount could definitely help to define better this matter on US/EU home server for us of the old continent. As you said, if we're a dozen
there's little point on partecipating WvWvW on our own (doesn't mean that it wouldn't be fun, but results would be hard to come I bet).

I did a quickly check, but as you pointed out, people should add #EU to have the most complete picture possible.
This is a list of the gaffers (24) that have specified EU in their post:
Computer
Silphonica
Lirlond
John Malkovich
Kem0sabe
Anilusion
Melhisedek
Bufbaf
Maiger
pleunv
Kntj
Ryökäle
Keasar
Maiger
tachiSama
ne1
froliq
Nahkarankaisja
Mulligan
Spookie
Naxx
Neckbeard69
Wes
Naito

Be nice if we could get all of the EU players opinion/vote on this issue. Though Id imagine that wont be comprehensive unless we make a new topic, and i doubt thats allowed

 

[ComputerMKII]

I won't join a US server, as I'm still worried about latency and inactivity due to the different time zone. As for which EU server, I hope there are enough gaffers playing in EU to convince me to play on Gandara, since I initially wanted to join the more populated Desolation server. This being said, I haven't decided yet.

Fake edit: 24 players looks good enough, I guess

 

[Naito]

24 players looks good enough, I guess

Atm it's only the list of those that added EU in their post, but it's already something. I suppose there're more out there.
We also still have to consider those that have already decided on playing on the US home server.


#EU GW2 GAF - Home server poll
here's a poll for EU GAF to help us decide if
. we should join with the rest of GW2 GAFGuild on a US home server;
. we should settle on a EU home server;
. it's indifferent which home server we'll be on.

CLICK ME TO VOTE!

Thanks and do post your opinion on the matter

 

[ParityBit]

Damn I was going to try an play GW again (been a long long time) but I can't log in because I have no idea a character name from my account!

 

[Gromph]

Atm it's only the list of those that added EU in their post, but it's already something. I suppose there're more out there.
We also still have to consider those that have already decided on playing on the US home server.


#EU GW2 GAF - Home server poll
here's a poll for EU GAF to help us decide if
. we should join with the rest of GW2 GAFGuild on a US home server;
. we should settle on a EU home server;
. it's indifferent which home server we'll be on.

CLICK ME TO VOTE!

Thanks and do post your opinion on the matter

Add one more and i voted also.

Damn I was going to try an play GW again (been a long long time) but I can't log in because I have no idea a character name from my account!

Same happens to me last time i played was 2005.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Atm it's only the list of those that added EU in their post, but it's already something. I suppose there're more out there.
We also still have to consider those that have already decided on playing on the US home server.


#EU GW2 GAF - Home server poll
here's a poll for EU GAF to help us decide if
. we should join with the rest of GW2 GAFGuild on a US home server;
. we should settle on a EU home server;
. it's indifferent which home server we'll be on.

CLICK ME TO VOTE!

Thanks and do post your opinion on the matter

Voted 2.

Damn I was going to try an play GW again (been a long long time) but I can't log in because I have no idea a character name from my account!

I had the same problem and calling Customer service solved it for me.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Be nice if we could get all of the EU players opinion/vote on this issue. Though Id imagine that wont be comprehensive unless we make a new topic, and i doubt thats allowed

I'm EU, and I'll probably gonna roll on a server me and a few rl friends decide on, sorry :/ A few of them aren't comfy with non-german servers, and as for the US based servers, time's an issue, too, since we're all employed and all.

So yeah, I'll probably visit a lot (and might even change server later), but I'll stay on one of the german servers for some time. Voted for C though, because a) I'd probably rather visit the US server, if I'm visiting, and b) with only that few EU Gaffers, I somehow fear an actual guild won't last that long - who knows how long all of EU Gaf will even stick to GW2 once that ol' WoW addon goes live

edit: Damn Naito, that's one quick edit

 

[Piecake]

I'm EU, and I'll probably gonna roll on a server me and a few rl friends decide on, sorry :/ A few of them aren't comfy with non-german servers, and as for the US based servers, time's an issue, too, since we're all employed and all.

So yeah, I'll probably visit a lot (and might even change server later), but I'll stay on one of the german servers for some time. Voted for C though, because a) I'd probably rather visit the US server, if I'm visiting, and b) with only that few EU Gaffers, I somehow fear an actual guild won't last that long - who knows how long all of EU Gaf will even stick to GW2 once that ol' WoW addon goes live

edit: Damn Naito, that's one quick edit

Well, there is only one GAF guild. Guilds can span multiple servers so all EU and NA GAF will be in one guild. You can join multiple guilds as well so there is really no reason to quit GAF

Well, based on the early results of the poll, I guess something like this might work

NA Server: Not Henge or GoM
EU Server: Gandara (Though all EU GAF is encouraged to join the NA server since no latency issues have been reported)

 

[Naito]

[...]with only that few EU Gaffers, I somehow fear an actual guild won't last that long

If we'll settle in EU, I can't wait to find you in WvWvW and hunt you down...

Well, based on the early results of the poll, I guess something like this might work

NA Server: Not Henge or GoM
EU Server: Gandara (Though all EU GAF is encouraged to join the NA server since no latency issues have been reported)

The current direction is quite clear but it's still too early, poll has been out for only 2h and we only had 6 votes so far.
I'd wait a week and see if the trend will still be to settle on a EU server.

And reposting

#EU GW2 GAF - Home server poll
here's a poll for EU GAF to help us decide if
. we should join with the rest of GW2 GAFGuild on a US home server;
. we should settle on a EU home server;
. it's indifferent which home server we'll be on.

CLICK ME TO VOTE!

Thanks and do post your opinion on the matter

 

[ParityBit]

I had the same problem and calling Customer service solved it for me.

Too bad it's Sunday! Oh well, I am sure the urge will pass.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Well, there is only one GAF guild. Guilds can span multiple servers so all EU and NA GAF will be in one guild. You can join multiple guilds as well so there is really no reason to quit GAF

Well yeah, technically, but if there's a GAF subsection on a EU server, it's pretty much it's own guild when it comes to WvW (and most probably PvE, time differences and all). And then it doesn't make too much sense joining the EU server when 90% of the guild isn't there anyway. Or at least, it would be the same as joining the US server in the first place.

If we'll settle in EU, I can't wait to find you in WvWvW and hunt you down...

I'm just that red unnamed guy, you'll never find me!

 

[mr.rager]

Looking forward to playing with you guys!

#addme

MrRager.7043

 

[Ferny]

So big news guildies, a couple of the officers and some other members of the guild were thinking for a while now that maybe an off-site strictly for the guild would work out really well. It would help by not only getting us organized a bit better, but to also help those friends of guildies that already have to wait the for the sometimes long wait time to get confirmed. It gives them to chance to talk to the guild outside of the game and also allows them to get to know everyone. I was working on it all day with the help of Retro and what we came up with I think is pretty good for a start. What we have now is just the base but it will continue to have more features and all types of goodies



This is not a push off NeoGAF at all. If you want to join cool, if not then that's fine too. It's basically just a way to have members of the guild interact with each other easier and have us organize events and everything better rather than it getting lost in the shuffle of members wanting an event or talking about class builds etc, etc. Any comments or whatever, please feel free to let me know.

 

[Retro]

Tidbits and Random Thoughts on GafGuild.com;

• There are Profession Icons under the emoticons for Maximum Coolness.
  
  
• The profession sub-forum allows you to mark your thread with a profession-specific Tag, so people can tell at a glance what class you're asking about. You can also filter by tag, so if you're looking for threads on a specific profession, you can do so.
  
  
• Having a professions sub-forum is important as lots of us will be seeking feedback on builds and such. These kind of questions would get lost in the shuffle of the GAF thread.
  
  
• Likewise, in the PVP and PVP, we have added an "EU" Tag so EuroGAF can find all of the threads relevant to their interests quickly. This is VERY important since the latest poll numbers show EU GAF wants to remain on their own server. (this feature isn't up just yet, by the way, very soon).
  
  
• FYI, that's something else you can do on the guild forum, create polls.
  
  
• A lot of things that are frowned on here at GAF can be posted at a separate forum, specifically patch notes and off-topic posting. We don't want to clutter the GAF thread with that sort of thing.
  
  
• Eventually we'd like to incorporate stuff like a front page with news, a mumble widget so people can see who's active, calenders and things like that.

It is not meant to replace GAF, it's just meant to make it easier to do stuff as a Guild. A lot of the other GAF Guilds in MMOs have their own forums as well, so this isn't exactly unprecedented.

OH YEAH, and I did the Logo. /gloat

 

[Piecake]

OH YEAH, and I did the Logo. /gloat

The logo is pretty sweet, though you should have tried to incorporate a visual pun into it somehow

 

[Retro]

The logo is pretty sweet, though you should have tried to incorporate a visual pun into it somehow

Nope, just wanted something simple that wouldn't get lost at the top of the forum page. Tried it without that outline and the oranges just kind of blended in. But other than that, I'm quite pleased with it. Gets the point across, no?

 

[Piecake]

Nope, just wanted something simple that wouldn't get lost at the top of the forum page. Tried it without that outline and the oranges just kind of blended in. But other than that, I'm quite pleased with it. Gets the point across, no?

Oh, I actually like it. That pun bit was just a bit of teasing

 

[ComputerMKII]

Congrats on the logo, it looks perfect!

Does the guild have a Steam group?

 

[Quadrophenic]

Great job on the logo, Retro!

 

[Moondrop]

Hello everyone. I'm a longtime lurker coming out of the shadows to pledge my services to the GAF Guild. I fought alongside y'all in the BWEs and would consider it an honor to do so formally upon release.

#addme
Moondrop.5703

 

[ComputerMKII]

Just reserved the name for my GW2 character.

 

[pleunv]

I wouldn't really mind playing US but the time difference might indeed make it hard to do or organise anything during our (EU) peak hours. Although the whole PvP system isn't all that clear to me yet so I might be mistaken.

 

[Naito]

Joined GAFGuild. Logo is sort of neat, it's ok for GAF. What's with the pixelated outline?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Events being almost impossible to solo and essential to pve, i figure it´s not a very good idea for a EU based player to play in a US server, unless he/she plans guest on EU servers constantly.

 

[pleunv]

Yeah, I think i'll stick to EU, most likely Desolation or Far Something

 

[Retro]

I wouldn't really mind playing US but the time difference might indeed make it hard to do or organise anything during our (EU) peak hours. Although the whole PvP system isn't all that clear to me yet so I might be mistaken.

There are two types of PVP: Structured PVP (5v5 or 8v8 to control positions on a map) and World vs World (3 servers battle to control four huge maps, using siege and strategy to capture keeps).

You can play all of the PvE stuff (Dungeons, Dynamic Events, exploration) with anyone from any server, even those outside your region, by "Guesting". There is no fee associated with this. You can also Guest for Structured PVP. However, because World vs. World involves servers fighting each other, you can only play World vs. World with people from your home server.

Your home server is account-based, by the way, so all of your characters are tied to a single server (You can't have two on one server and one on another). Again, because of the way WvW works, it's not not an option they want to allow. You can change your home server for a one-time fee, but obviously all of your characters transfer at once.

Guesting is still pretty lenient though and a heck of a lot better than past MMOs have allowed in terms of playing with who you want, when you want, for free and without abandoning the friendships you have already made.

Joined GAFGuild. Logo is sort of neat, it's ok for GAF. What's with the pixelated outline?

1. Needed a logo to represent GAF and GW2. I worked with what I had.
2. Without the stroke around the logo, the oranges in the logo and site background blended together and it looked much worse. We wanted to get the site up ASAP so that was the best fix until I can tweak it.

 

[BrettWeir]

So big news guildies, a couple of the officers and some other members of the guild were thinking for a while now that maybe an off-site strictly for the guild would work out really well. It would help by not only getting us organized a bit better, but to also help those friends of guildies that already have to wait the for the sometimes long wait time to get confirmed. It gives them to chance to talk to the guild outside of the game and also allows them to get to know everyone. I was working on it all day with the help of Retro and what we came up with I think is pretty good for a start. What we have now is just the base but it will continue to have more features and all types of goodies



This is not a push off NeoGAF at all. If you want to join cool, if not then that's fine too. It's basically just a way to have members of the guild interact with each other easier and have us organize events and everything better rather than it getting lost in the shuffle of members wanting an event or talking about class builds etc, etc. Any comments or whatever, please feel free to let me know.

Suggestion....

There should be an "Introduce yourselves" type sub-forum, just so we can all say that we are registered and there.

Again, just a suggestion.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

2. Without the stroke around the logo, the oranges in the logo and site background blended together and it looked much worse. We wanted to get the site up ASAP so that was the best fix until I can tweak it.

If you're okay with it, I might give the design a shot later on, to see if I can get it less pixel-y

Oh and if you are, please tell me how big the standard size for a header graphic may be, just for toying around with it.

If not, just ignore this post, it'll be fine ^^

 

[Naito]

I'll leave the poll open untill the 1st August, even if the response has been quite clear.

First, with these infos we know there's a strong preference in playing on our own EU server.
I point the most important reasons being
. friends that will join GW2 and want play on EU server;
. play in our GMT/CET time zone.

I'd like to emphasize that these two things are still possible if you're settled on a US home server,
thanks to the guesting's feature that allows you to visit and play on servers of different regions.
WvWvW, on the other hand, is only accessable on your home server.

The other news is that, so far, we had 45+ votes, meaning that there's actually the double of the amount
of EU gaffers I listed previously. This is positive since there's a concern regarding the size of the EU side being
very limited. With the release's date getting closer, it would be definitely helpful to write up a proper list
of all the EU members.

Last but not least, afaik the EU home server should be Gandara though it's not set in stone.
I suppose we could discuss about this topic once the first poll will be over.

1. Needed a logo to represent GAF and GW2. I worked with what I had.
2. Without the stroke around the logo, the oranges in the logo and site background blended together and it looked much worse. We wanted to get the site up ASAP so that was the best fix until I can tweak it.

Makes sense, good job btw

 

[Retro]

There should be an "Introduce yourselves" type sub-forum, just so we can all say that we are registered and there.

Not a bad idea at all, though a whole sub-forum seems excessive. I'll put one together in a few minutes, but it will be more than just "lol, I am xyz from GAF". One of the goals of the guild forum is to get people acquainted with their fellow guildmates, so there might be a few questions to answer about past MMO experiences, etc.

If you're okay with it, I might give the design a shot later on, to see if I can get it less pixel-y

Oh and if you are, please tell me how big the standard size for a header graphic may be, just for toying around with it.

Yep, the one that's up there now is just my first pass. I'm fixing the outline/pixelation thing as we speak so it will look a bit smoother as soon as I finish and Ferny gets on to fix it.

If you want to take a crack at it we just used 200x200. Went with just a plain logo since, you know, everyone should know what those two symbols mean.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Not a bad idea at all, though a whole sub-forum seems excessive.

.

 

[Rösti]

Some thoughts on the logo, Retro:

• Clean up the edge on the symbol, it looks very choppy
• PNG format gives you a bit more space to work in, meaning higher quality possible
• The mix of the stylized Guild Wars font (based on Eason Pro) with that other typeface works, but there are better alternatives.
  Perhaps a sans serif font could look nice, for variety.

Also, in case you aren't already, make sure to use assets from here: http://download.guildwars2.com/Files/Guild_Wars_2_Asset_Kit_HD.zip

Also, with all this talk about logos, perhaps the starting post could do with one as well? I'm writing here as I'm thinking about purchasing the game, but I gotta look up a few things first. And I follow the thread, though I haven't written in it before.