I understand the concepts behind lockstep networking. I am not convinced that Reach's implementation is the pinnacle of it, and it will never ever get better, forever and ever amen.
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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
I understand the concepts behind lockstep networking. I am not convinced that Reach's implementation is the pinnacle of it, and it will never ever get better, forever and ever amen.
Technical stuff I'd like to see in Halo 4:
* Multiplayer maps are both Firefight and Competitive compatible. Some will be more optimized for one mode than the other, but at least we'll have the option of fine tuning them for competitive in Forge.
* Remove local player limit in matchmaking. Make map selector check the lobby to see the max players on any one box, then filter down the list accordingly.
- If everyone in the game is single box, all maps are available.
- 2 player box(es) in the lobby, drop out the more intensive community or 343-created variants.
- 4 player box in the lobby, drop down to just developer maps and variants that support 4 player
- The option can still be retained in cases where the entire list is not compatible with 4 players.
* Restore the Reach 1.0 behavior of DLC achievements being obtainable on all maps. Nobody likes map specific achievements.
* Co-op checkpoint saving ala ODST.
* Quit and Don't Save
I've yet to see any lockstep networking on any other game, console or PC, that is better or worse. It is limited by physics, not code. Asynch can still be improved with better and faster client side prediction algorithms and bandwidth use. Lockstep is basically brute force networking, just sending button presses as fast as you can down the pipe and hoping for the best. The only other options are go asynch or drop the mode completely. If Sony or Nintendo get some balls and remove bandwidth limits from their titles in the next generation, MS would probably follow suit. MS wouldn't want Nintendo or Sony gloating that they have 64 player Battlefield while the Xbox 3 has a 24 player limit.
Never. When I think of a post I want to make, it's just there in my head. I've actually not written up posts on HBO because the post text in my head was too long and I didn't want to take the time to transcribe it. Maximum laziness.
* Multiplayer maps are both Firefight and Competitive compatible. Some will be more optimized for one mode than the other, but at least we'll have the option of fine tuning them for competitive in Forge.
* Remove local player limit in matchmaking. Make map selector check the lobby to see the max players on any one box, then filter down the list accordingly.
- If everyone in the game is single box, all maps are available.
- 2 player box(es) in the lobby, drop out the more intensive community or 343-created variants.
- 4 player box in the lobby, drop down to just developer maps and variants that support 4 player
- The option can still be retained in cases where the entire list is not compatible with 4 players.
* Restore the Reach 1.0 behavior of DLC achievements being obtainable on all maps. Nobody likes map specific achievements.
* Co-op checkpoint saving ala ODST.
* Quit and Don't Save
I've yet to see any lockstep networking on any other game, console or PC, that is better or worse. It is limited by physics, not code. Asynch can still be improved with better and faster client side prediction algorithms and bandwidth use. Lockstep is basically brute force networking, just sending button presses as fast as you can down the pipe and hoping for the best. The only other options are go asynch or drop the mode completely. If Sony or Nintendo get some balls and remove bandwidth limits from their titles in the next generation, MS would probably follow suit. MS wouldn't want Nintendo or Sony gloating that they have 64 player Battlefield while the Xbox 3 has a 24 player limit.
Never. When I think of a post I want to make, it's just there in my head. I've actually not written up posts on HBO because the post text in my head was too long and I didn't want to take the time to transcribe it. Maximum laziness.
I laughed.
And I often wonder if Fyrewulf ever gets tired of being himself. Just reading his 5 or 6 long and very technical posts per page is an exhausting task, nevermind actually writing them.
So every iteration of the model is identical, never been any improvement ever, since the first implementation, and never will be in the future history of software development. Got it.
This is an absurd conversation.
My only assertion here is that I doubt we've hit the absolute best way to network Firefight, and that in future years I think and hope we'll see improvement, either through the current model or the adoption of another. This is another one of those "I thought I was saying something obvious" moments. Again, you are arguing that the net code in Firefight will never, ever, ever get better.
I appreciate your posts, Fyre, but exhanges like this are very frustrating.
My hope is 343 can make the Firefight experience better. That is all.
Multiplayer maps should be created for multiplayer WITHOUT firefight in mind. Then use these MP maps for firefight.
Honestly, FF should just be cut for a better campaign. Bungie couldn't do all three in one game (Good campaign, good firefight, no multiplayer - ODST. Bad campaign, bad firefight, unbalanced multiplayer - Reach)
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
As much as I disagree with Fyre sometimes, for example DMR starts on Objective, I'd rather read his some of his more constructive analysis and suggestive posts than have page after page of echo chamber bitching.
And without Fyre, Frankie would have never posted that image and today would be slightly less colourful.
I learned from FyreWullf's posts that lockstep is the superior network structure for what Bungie wanted to achieve in Reach, but that its method is capped by real world physics (information can only travel so fast). It won't improve much more than its currect iteration, whereas asynch can, but is not currently capable of producing the desired effects, rendering lockstep the winner, even with all its flaws, by default.
Of course, this is all assuming he's one hundred percent correct about all that he's said on the respective systems.
Of course, this is all assuming he's one hundred percent correct about all that he's said on the respective systems.
I'm surprised at people complaining about the spawns in Prisoner - I always kind of thought the whole point, and part of the charm of the level was - SPAWN, OH SHIT EVERYONE IS HERE RIGHT ABOVE ME HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS CORNER!
It speeds up those games to a ludicrous level. Which I like.
It speeds up those games to a ludicrous level. Which I like.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
I'm surprised there was a demand for this level in the first place. The level is a simple clustermuck.
Seems like a perfect Infection level though.
Gabotron ES
Member
In Halo 4 give us an "Save film as" while checking your last match in the File Browser.
That way I'll just name it "Awesome Stick" and check it out later, I have lots of saved films and I don't even know why I saved them.
Adding a "Invite to game" option while highlighting friends on your Active Roster would be cool.
That way I'll just name it "Awesome Stick" and check it out later, I have lots of saved films and I don't even know why I saved them.
Adding a "Invite to game" option while highlighting friends on your Active Roster would be cool.
You're missing what I'm saying, and I'm sorry if I'm not more clear. Firefight networking can get better. But it has to go asynch. And it can't go asynch because of Microsoft's stupid artificial limitations, much like how they shat up Halo PC by requiring it to work on 56k.
Reach doesn't have the #1 lockstep model but the better models have latency advantages counted in milliseconds and run in 60fps. The only games that willingly use lockstep these days are RTSes because of the massive amounts of units on screen at any one time. The rest are either stuck on console or running an already made game online where it wasn't before. Perfect Dark cheats asynch into a previously split-screen only multiplayer by turning off physics when you play online, but is still stuck with lockstep in campaign co-op. Shit like that. They could do drop in drop out co-op and Firefight in lockstep, but again: that requires stopping the game and the host uploading a ~20-30MB film of the game up to that point to the player that just joined the game, then resuming. A situation excusable on PC but would make Microsoft fail your game immediately.
We've gone through 3 Halo titles now where the asynch networking saw massive jumps, and the lockstep'd mode got.. the ability to not completely stop when a person left. There are network engineers at the top of their fields working at these companies, and there's only so much you can do to optimize networking when you're barred from using the tricks that let you have no input latency and hide host latency.
tl;dr Firefight can get better, but office politics are holding it back, not technlogy. Remove the bandwidth limits, throw that shit on dedis and make players take a bandwidth test before they enter the playlist.
Hypertrooper
Member
That's the case in FFA or joke-BTB and it is great. But if you talk about 4vs4 matches, then it is a problem...
Fuck yea! Just did it. I've never even attempted The Library on Legendary before.. CEA or original.
Fuckyeaaaaabitches
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I like your technical posts, i visited your site hoping for large technical blog esq posts but it didnt have any.
The more you know. G.I.FyreWulff
The game only spawns you in the low basement or at OS spawn: one is an incredibly disadvantaged spawn, the other gives you a huge advantage. There's literally no where else to respawn.
It did
That's because drupal or joomla or whateverthefuck I installed there is shitty poop from pooptown. I need a better CMS. I remember I was trying to archive the ODST q&a from dmiller onto there and it wouldn't let me bold an entire paragraph, it'd autokill the bold after one line and other formatting weirdness/fighting. I ended up putting it on FTZ because the CMS I duct taped together in 30 seconds for that site didn't do that.
Asynch is pretty much the only way Firefight Versus is ever going to really take off. Player versus player with input latency = fuck this shit. Or just let players use Covie models in certain game modes in competitive multiplayer. Or do I secretly just want to play as a Hunter?
Will Halo 4 become the first title to add Brutes as multiplayer player models?
Controls for engineer:
LT - float down
RT - float up
RB - whale sounds
If you could Forge campaign scenarios like that though, I think Rockslider over at HBO would go into a coma.
ncsuDuncan
Member
What if Halo 4 split Firefight into two modes: one closer to Campaign and one closer to Living Dead?
Make one a Flood Survival game mode with dumb AI flood forms. ODSTs low on ammo and health battleing wave after wave of various Flood. The Flood Survival VS. mode would have a few of those Flood Combat Forms controlled by players.
Then to keep that old Firefight style give Campaign a way of saving "gametypes" that you could share with friends. Something like:
Free Fire Zone (Campaign Gametype)
Players: 1
Level: Winter Contingency
Start: Checkpoint Bravo
End: Checkpoint Delta
Difficulty: Heroic
Skulls: Iron, Mythic, Grunt Birthday Party
Goal: Highest Score
You define a beginning and an end, so it could span the whole level or just one section. You can set the "Highest Score" goal to other things like "Shortest Time" or "Least Deaths".
Then you post scores to a local leaderboard (or a clan-wide leaderboard) similar to Geometry Wars 2, where it shows you the next score to beat during the game (Reach Firefight does that last part I think).
TLDR: Maybe simple Flood AI would work in Asynch.
Make one a Flood Survival game mode with dumb AI flood forms. ODSTs low on ammo and health battleing wave after wave of various Flood. The Flood Survival VS. mode would have a few of those Flood Combat Forms controlled by players.
Then to keep that old Firefight style give Campaign a way of saving "gametypes" that you could share with friends. Something like:
Free Fire Zone (Campaign Gametype)
Players: 1
Level: Winter Contingency
Start: Checkpoint Bravo
End: Checkpoint Delta
Difficulty: Heroic
Skulls: Iron, Mythic, Grunt Birthday Party
Goal: Highest Score
You define a beginning and an end, so it could span the whole level or just one section. You can set the "Highest Score" goal to other things like "Shortest Time" or "Least Deaths".
Then you post scores to a local leaderboard (or a clan-wide leaderboard) similar to Geometry Wars 2, where it shows you the next score to beat during the game (Reach Firefight does that last part I think).
TLDR: Maybe simple Flood AI would work in Asynch.
I think I am the only HaloGAF member who actually doesn't mind prisoner at all.
*remembers all the "FUCK YEAH I LOVED PRISONER" responses when it was reveled at Halo Fest*
Hypertrooper
Member
Do you remember the "Halo Reach will be the best halo!" responses?
The Real Napsta
Member
I like Prisoner too (in both CE and Reach). Best 2v2 map ever.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Silly nostalgia glasses.
If Halo 5 reveals that Valhalla and The Pit were really bad maps all along I'm going to be upset at myself.
HaloGAF needs to remember this:
It'd be nice if we could get Rockets on Prisoner in Anniversary FFA. What the hell were they thinking not having that gametype in there? Obviously not thinking correctly.
I'd like to see how the map functions under Bro Slayer. Too bad they removed Bro Slayer from matchmaking.
I remember thinking sprinting and jetpacks were so cool............
what have I done
The few times I played Anniversary Prisoner, I enjoyed it because of how small the map is meaning you're almost always shooting someone, but I'm still not a fan of the spawns.
Gabotron ES
Member
Three way Invasion FTW!
Fuck yeah dude did you see that armor lock shit?! Its gonna be the best Halo game ever!
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Be careful with that, I think I read somewhere that "meme" was banned due to abuse over in the OT.
Reagan's BR
Banned
Halo 4 multiplayer:
Halo 2 Engine and Maps
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Assorted Halo 1 and Halo 3 Maps
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Pro Pipe
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Halo 2 Engine and Maps
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Assorted Halo 1 and Halo 3 Maps
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Pro Pipe
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Have to take the best parts from each game.
There's a "how-to" speed run on halo waypoint if your looking for tips and stuff.
Good thing there is a consensus on exactly what the best parts of each game. Everyone agrees - the Internet planets align, choirs sing from on high, the skies part, and there is peace on HaloGAF.
Gabotron ES
Member
How's that a meme? Is it supposed to be offensive in some way?
I don't spend too much time in the OT.
Think he means the Tsoukalos aliens thing.
Reagan's BR
Banned
Haha, I think everyone here has realized that I think Halo 2 is the best by now.
Gabotron ES
Member
You offended all of us and now we will offend you. Prepare to die.
fixed
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Poor Gabo was already banned from Live for no good reason, don't want to see a silly meme befall anyone here. :lol
Gabotron ES
Member
:lol I still don't know the reason for that ban, shit was not funny
So many possibilities!
:lol I still don't know the reason for that ban, shit was not funny
Nobody expects the Spanish interdiction
I suspect the reason that the entire objects didn't change color is the fact that object colors will sometimes not be communicated by the host or lost in a host switch and revert to the default blue. Cue people making a map entirely dependant on the colors of the pieces and then it all falls apart during a play session.
ncsuDuncan
Member
I know you're joking, but that would actually be wonderful.
Imagine if Reach had the exact same Forge World we have today, but with the ability to change the color of the entire object (instead of just some small lights on it).
I don't know if it's feasible due to texture sizes (or if there's a way around that) but being able to set object colors would go a long way towards making maps unique and easier to navigate.
Didn't that dude just rage out at a community that supported his game? 343 already has a guy like that. His name is Shishka.
ncsuDuncan
Member
I think Bungie saw the potential that user-created content had in Halo 3 and Reach but was still limited by the tools and schedule they had already started working with. I get the feeling that Destiny will be built with user creation in mind from the start and that excites me. Hopefully Grognok is something for consumers and not just developers.
Hopefully 343i will meet and surpass the expectations that Forge has set for the series. I know they showed an interest in what the Halo PC mod community created so there's always hope for something grand in Halo 4...
Say what you want about his playlist decisions, but I've always found the guy to be pretty friendly. Maybe I just wasn't provoking his rage.
Gabotron ES
Member
Dunno about normal assault but Invasion's assault "sudden death" is utterly broken.
It also sucks how we can't even change bomb's reset time
It also sucks how we can't even change bomb's reset time
So true.