-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
- Thread starter ADiTAR
- Start date
Meicyn
Gold Member
Because they aren’t. If you were to create a Venn diagram for Palestinians and Hamas, there would definitely be significant overlap, but you would not have concentric circles. It’s super fucking weird that you keep trying to push this narrative that the two are the same, but in the next breath will insist that Israel is not commiting genocide of the Palestinians because they are focused on solely destroying Hamas. If Palestinians = Hamas and the slated military objective of the IDF is to destroy Hamas, then logically speaking the goal is to destroy all Palestinians.
So which is it? Do you truly believe Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same?
Kar
Member
It's also weird that you conflate his opinions with Israel's military objectives.
He can think that most Palestinians are Hamas and insist that Israel is not committing genocide at the same time.
And personally I wouldn't say most Palestinians are Hamas, but they're not innocent either.
Meicyn
Gold Member
He didn’t argue that most Palestinians are Hamas, or that most Palestinians are sympathetic to Hamas. He is arguing that Palestinians are Hamas. That is not a small distinction.
And I would agree with you, on the subject of Palestinian innocence. The majority voting favorably for Hamas makes that abundantly clear.
meant to say are pro Hamas.
Meicyn
Gold Member
Mucho respect, I can 100% agree with that.
Come now. If my job is to kill all the people stabbing me and it just so happens all the people around me ARE stabbing me, I'm not "just trying to kill everyone around me".
I thinknwe need to repeat this again, "If HAMAS unconditionally surrendered and returned all hostages, the IDF would not keep fighting". The war would be over in a matter of hours. It's HAMAS that prolongs this, not israel.
Meicyn
Gold Member
I assume you’re focused on the bit about the IDF. For clarity, I do not believe the IDF is committing genocide because if that was the military objective, then they’re absolutely terrible at it. The comment was just part of an argument challenging the logic of a statement that as it turns out, was not the intended message in the first place.
Admittedly I assumed the worst from A ADiTAR and I should have asked for clarity without going into internet asshole mode.
I think it also bears repeating that HAMAS initially said they couldn't account for all (or even half IIRC) of the hostages because they blamed Gazan 'civilians' or non-HAMAS actors for running into Israel during the attack and snatching random people themselves. Makes it REAL hard to portray HAMAS as some sort of oppressive parasite over an unwiling Gaza when that stuff happens.
OR that one hostage escapes, wanders Gaza for 4 days, but then is recaptured. No one helped him? According to his aunt “He managed to escape and hid alone for several days. In the end, the Gazans captured him and returned him to the terrorists’ hands,” she says. Ain't no Anne Frank "we help our Jewish neighbors against the Nazi's" stuff going on here.
Not to say that all Gazans deserve to be punished, but its pretty disingenuous to think HAMAS has zero support from them and that HAMAS owes most of their continued survival to a that supportive portion of the populace.
OR that one hostage escapes, wanders Gaza for 4 days, but then is recaptured. No one helped him? According to his aunt “He managed to escape and hid alone for several days. In the end, the Gazans captured him and returned him to the terrorists’ hands,” she says. Ain't no Anne Frank "we help our Jewish neighbors against the Nazi's" stuff going on here.
Not to say that all Gazans deserve to be punished, but its pretty disingenuous to think HAMAS has zero support from them and that HAMAS owes most of their continued survival to a that supportive portion of the populace.
Assumed the worst? Why? because I would starve everyone in Gaza until our hostages come home?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Something something something… Jews… Israel… something something something…
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
The number of accounts that come up with Palestine flags in their usernames really sours me. It won't even be anything political and I'll just be looking through gaming threads and half the people in those threads have that flag in their username. Twitter has no way improved.The X algorithm is now completely broken and keeps pushing pro-palestine crap into my timeline. Jackson Hinkle.. really Elon?
Every time I reload it's getting worse. Holy crap it's just a shitload of muslim propaganda
Madserb2023
Member
I didn't expect anything less from terrorist supporting Ireland but Spain are asking for trouble. We should recognize Catalonia and the Basque speaking regions. Israel absolutely should. Spain is probably trying to placate the growing Moroccan population but they should know better. The ICC is a joke. Half the Middle East should have arrest warrants. As time goes on, I am not even sure if the Nazis actually lost, or if they just realized it was better to infiltrate institutions than to fight out in the open. I think even Hitler would be impressed with the current situation. Be honest, is the world closer to what the Allies wanted at the time or the Nazis.
Hot5pur
Member
I don't think anyone sees an endgame here.
Gaza is basically a bunch of religiously brainwashed, traumatized human beings with immense anger and hate towards Israelis.
Israel has their fair share of fanatics who likely exacerbate the conflict.
You're not going to displace 2.3 million people.
You're not going to re-educate generations of religiously/politically brainwashed people who have lived in poverty for much of their lives.
How this ends is with more bloodshed, thinning of Hamas, eventual withdrawal of Israel, things being calm for a few more years, maybe a decade until some other faction in Gaza regroups.
And the cycle starts all over again, but perhaps Israel steps up it's game in terms of early detection and keeps having to prevent/disrupt these kinds of attacks.
The way things are going with China/Russia and sometimes ambivalent support of US by Europe, and Europe being a bunch of pansies in general with their "UN", I don't see how we don't have a change in world order in the next half century (away from human rights and freedoms, and towards authoritarian dictatorships).
Gaza is basically a bunch of religiously brainwashed, traumatized human beings with immense anger and hate towards Israelis.
Israel has their fair share of fanatics who likely exacerbate the conflict.
You're not going to displace 2.3 million people.
You're not going to re-educate generations of religiously/politically brainwashed people who have lived in poverty for much of their lives.
How this ends is with more bloodshed, thinning of Hamas, eventual withdrawal of Israel, things being calm for a few more years, maybe a decade until some other faction in Gaza regroups.
And the cycle starts all over again, but perhaps Israel steps up it's game in terms of early detection and keeps having to prevent/disrupt these kinds of attacks.
The way things are going with China/Russia and sometimes ambivalent support of US by Europe, and Europe being a bunch of pansies in general with their "UN", I don't see how we don't have a change in world order in the next half century (away from human rights and freedoms, and towards authoritarian dictatorships).
I think in a history book written 500 years from now (hopefully still in english), they will look at the latter half of the 20th century/early 21st (and the larger "American experiment") as a transient period of humanitarian growth fueled by the legacy of two MASSIVE human crises (transatlantic slave trade and native american genocide) that allowed this little flicker of light before the world plunged back into the "same old, same old" state of kings squabbling with each other and warring on whomever they thought they could beat.
winjer
Gold Member
That is true. But the Ottoman empire, the Arab Caliphates and the Mongol empire, dwarf the scale of the transatlantic slave trade.
Sure, but those guys never really embraced democracy. It's twas America that showed the world how it could be until it came time to settle the check.
winjer
Gold Member
But that is part of their advantage.
Someone cries that European empires did slave trade, and they get a check.
Someone cries that Turks, Arabs or Mongols did slave trade, and they get nothing.
We are just incentivizing this constant victim mentality.
Yeah, but when one of your benchmark positions is "liberty for all" the slave thing sticks more. Same with the treatment of the Indians, it's was troublesome then as it is now. Hell, if Gaza was sitting on top of a gold mine or a big fountain of sweet crude then everyone would have just wiped them out no questions asked years ago. It's just because they live in a desolate desert area that they can be a convenient tool against Israel, they have no other value.
If I were a Kurd I'd offer to take in all the Palestinians if only Turkey, Iraq, and Iran would ceed them their homeland back. Boy would THAT put the Islamic world in a tailspin
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
That's because whichever culture ended up doing the best gets labeled a benefitter from stupid things in life.
But anyone else who did the same thing who didn't win gets a pass...... "Well, your country didn't reap the rewards like others, so I guess it wasnt so bad then. So lets not bring it up"
Last edited:
winjer
Gold Member
Yeah, but when one of your benchmark positions is "liberty for all" the slave thing sticks more. Same with the treatment of the Indians, it's was troublesome then as it is now. Hell, if Gaza was sitting on top of a gold mine or a big fountain of sweet crude then everyone would have just wiped them out no questions asked years ago. It's just because they live in a desolate desert area that they can be a convenient tool against Israel, they have no other value.
If I were a Kurd I'd offer to take in all the Palestinians if only Turkey, Iraq, and Iran would ceed them their homeland back. Boy would THAT put the Islamic world in a tailspin
But it's not a case of liberty or democracy. Slavery was never the will of the people.
For example, Portugal was one of the pivots of the transatlantic slave trade. They made a deal with the Kingdom of Congo, to buy slaves from them. Then set up a slave prison in Cape Verde, where all other European countries would buy slaves from.
But this was not set up by the Portuguese people. This was set up by the Portuguese crown.
The Portuguese people still lived in poverty and never benefited from the slave trade. So why should the descendants of peasants and serfs have to pay for the crimes of the monarchy, clergy and nobility?
Most people, especially in the left, will agree that "trickle down economy" is non-sense. But it was even more so in times of monarchic rule.
Portugal today has a democratic rule, but that is a recent event. Just 50 years.
And the same could be said for a lot of European countries.
The people of the United Kingdom was still paying for reparations, to slave owners, for the abolition of slavery in the mid XIX century.
Why should the people have to pay, again, for the crimes of the crown and nobility.
Or the case of Leopold II of Belgium. We know who got the money, it's the crown. No the people.
And we have to remember that it was the pressure of the people, that started the process of abolishing slavery in European empires. Against the whishes of the crown and nobility.
Remember that when the British, because of internal pressure from the people, proposed the abolition of slavery, in the Congress of Vienna, all other monarchs said no. It still took decades, for all these monarchies to listen to it's own people and ban slavery.
The worst part, is that when European countries banned slavery, a few African kingdoms sent delegations to Brasil, as to promote the sale of slaves. At this time, Brasil was independent from Portugal and refused to ban slavery.
winjer
Gold Member
near
Gold Member
winjer
Gold Member
Stitch
Gold Member
Live updates: Israel-Hamas war in Gaza, ICJ ruling, Rafah invasion looms
The United Nations' top court has ordered Israel to immediately halt its controversial military operation in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, further increasing international pressure on Israel over its war against Hamas. Follow for live updates.
MisterFalcon
Member
The hostages (if any survive) should be happy to know the ICJ is 'deeply concerned' and 'calls for their release'. Unfortunately nothing may be done to free them as this will mean the Palestinians holding them will die.
They didn't really order Israel to stop the fighting, it's if the fighting escalates to genocide which we all know it isn't.
But we are living in the twilight zone, when the ICJ doesn't order Hamas to release the hostages, just kinda asks them. Not to mention they didn't even mention Hamas I think in their declaration.
Halo is Back
Member
Lukaku's First Touch
Member
They are such ass kissing cowards...
They mourn his death meanwhile women in Iran are celebrating.
nypost.com
Iranian women celebrate death of President Ebrahim Raisi, who led brutal crackdown on rights
“We freely dance and celebrate on your dirty grave,” said one woman, who was blinded by Iranian security forces during the 2022 protests.
nypost.com
Just look at that BEAUTIFUL beach, how the hell wasn't that a billion dollar a year tourist resource for Gaza? Oh yeah, something something it's israels fault.
Considering there was almost nothing on that coast line until Tel Aviv was started by Jews... They are not into it.
You realize you’re now sharing tweets from an account that’s been posting anti-Semitic, pro-Kremlin and pro-Hamas stuff?
tommib
Gold Member
That account is on the level of Jackson Hinkle. It’s vile pro-Russian, anti-west, anti-Israel grifting.
I had no idea. Hard to keep track.
LordOfChaos
Member
Israeli, Egyptian forces exchange fire, Egyptian soldier killed
The IDF said that the incident was under investigation and that a dialogue was taking place with the Egyptians.
www.jpost.com
LordOfChaos
Member
Always strikes me that this could have been such a nice beachfront tourist spot like the Maldives, but they chose terrorism over tourism
winjer
Gold Member
Why work hard and be a prosperous people, when they can just leech off international aid.
LordOfChaos
Member
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
45 casualties in a tent city that is supposedly called a genocide? I dunno. If this was truly genocide, I would have expected 20x those numbers easily.
Sounds more like either an error or Hamas using its civilians as collateral to damage Israel’s reputation again.
Sounds more like either an error or Hamas using its civilians as collateral to damage Israel’s reputation again.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
There's been a lot of errors then. Like the 3 separate food trucks with UN workers ... One is an accident... 3 in a row is intentional.
One has to prove intent so any such claims should present evidence not speculation. We’ve seen what happens when incorrect headlines proliferate before facts can be determined.
Overall, I still see the number of civilian casualties is still low relative to the force being addressed so don’t yet see a cause for concern.
Accidents can and should be expected and when they happen they should be investigated and tried by the courts where negligence comes into play. Similarly, the lack of discipline among conscripts and general lawlessness with settlers disrupting aide should also be addressed.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked