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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
You're comparing 25 episodes of 3 minute shorts (12-15 minute for 5 episodes) released over three years verse 121 episodes of 22 minute each over six years?
Talk about apple and orange comparisons.
Trollhunters is by no means a low budget show though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
again, way to miss the point
it's not about about comparison, but the point of refuting an absolute idea with by virtue of pointing out the flawed pillars that made that absolute idea to begin with
I wonder if these are the same folks responsible for their tokusatsu cgi
You're arguing against a strawman in the first place. Who says "Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" and why would you take anyone who says this seriously, or treat it as a real platform? There's plenty of interesting, enlightening discussion to be had around 2D vs 3D, as the last few pages have shown, none of it involves disingenuous absolutes like "TWO-DEE ANIMATION SPERIOR".
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Idk..those all look really good to me still. Looks exactly like the concept art they make for the films.
SigmasonicX
Member
Right, I apologize for that. I meant more that because it doesn't have a movie budget, it has to do things to accommodate that.
My only issue with CG is that most of the big productions look relatively similar. They all have that "realistic cartoon" style going on. Their humans are specially "same-looking". You could take a character from Brave and put it in Rise of the Guardians or How to train your Dragon and it wouldn't look out of place.
I'm not sure if it's an art direction issue since their backgrounds usually look beautiful, and movies less reliant on human beings tend to look more unique (I really like Wall-E's first half in particular). Probably has more to do with stylization. I don't know, I just wish they were a bit more experimental with how 3D films look. We see it with videogames so I'm sure CG movies could be trying other art styles too and make it look good.
I'm not sure if it's an art direction issue since their backgrounds usually look beautiful, and movies less reliant on human beings tend to look more unique (I really like Wall-E's first half in particular). Probably has more to do with stylization. I don't know, I just wish they were a bit more experimental with how 3D films look. We see it with videogames so I'm sure CG movies could be trying other art styles too and make it look good.
KonradLaw
Member
Don't care as long as it's still 2D, whether it's all hand-made or augumented with computers. Full on 3D CG sucks when it pretends to be 2D and even full on CGI movies like Pixar stuff just lack something compared to 2D flicks.
Plus 2D can look decent, while being cheap. to make 3D look decent you need huge budgets.
Plus 2D can look decent, while being cheap. to make 3D look decent you need huge budgets.
yes... average.
DBZ hype pumps me up unlike anything else.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I don't think i've ever talked to someone (especially any of my friends who consider themselves any kind of an artist) whose opinion was that Hand Drawn is ALWAYS without fail better than CG...
Like... ? of course if my 7 year old daughter puts together a flip book and makes an animation with it out of her camera I'm gonna be proud and super happy about it but i'm not gonna compare that shit to God Of War 3 or some shit... like cmon..
BUT
Here is the pull - when a company or an animator takes their time and makes something truly beautiful from hand there is something different in the brain than with CG. It's like watching someone make a beautiful clay bowl. There are machines that can make 1000 clay bowls a day and they will be perfect and beautiful. The technology to control the machine is complicated and it takes dedication and skill to understand/build that program. Same thing for the actual machine that molds the bowls. An engineer somewhere studied for YEARS to accomplish that. The dance of all the different pieces coming together and then coming to life via lightning for blood is magic when you step away and think about it...
but those bowls will not sell like the one bowl that one artist made oh so very carefully over half a day.
Like... ? of course if my 7 year old daughter puts together a flip book and makes an animation with it out of her camera I'm gonna be proud and super happy about it but i'm not gonna compare that shit to God Of War 3 or some shit... like cmon..
BUT
Here is the pull - when a company or an animator takes their time and makes something truly beautiful from hand there is something different in the brain than with CG. It's like watching someone make a beautiful clay bowl. There are machines that can make 1000 clay bowls a day and they will be perfect and beautiful. The technology to control the machine is complicated and it takes dedication and skill to understand/build that program. Same thing for the actual machine that molds the bowls. An engineer somewhere studied for YEARS to accomplish that. The dance of all the different pieces coming together and then coming to life via lightning for blood is magic when you step away and think about it...
but those bowls will not sell like the one bowl that one artist made oh so very carefully over half a day.
elrechazado
Banned
Op creates a ridiculous straw man then spends the thread trying to explain why the strawman isn't one.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is an overgeneralization that has no basis in the modern day.
PixelatedBookake
Junior Member
These are very creepy to me.Something that I'm impressed by is a lot of OLDER cartoons are actually amazingly fluid.
Fleischer Superman cartoons still hold up to this day.
Showing it's age ≠ looking bad. Just like The Incredibles looks like a CG film from the early 2000's the examples I used have the same qualities that will make it look dated in 5-10 years.
BlackGoku03
Member
They spent an insane amount of money on each episode. It was built into the contract. Its an interesting story.
No worries, your point is valid for sure, it's just that knowing people who worked on that show, it was a bit of an outlier in terms of budget and production time.
Pocoyo is an example of a 3D show I think that does really well with its limited budget.
Fancyarcher
Member
Thankfully, the animation shouldn't hold back your enjoyment, especially since CGI, is constantly evolving.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
So true.
Just saw Nausicaä again, on the big screen (during a special Ghibli screening event) recently and it reminded me of how absolutely amazing Ghibli animation is. The art style helps, of course, but yeah.
More recently, I've been really impressed with the Castlevania cartoon mini-series on Netflix. It's all hand-drawn and really gorgeous. There might be some CG supplement here and there and that's fine, I don't mind "hybrids" when it's done well.
Sorry if that's getting off-topic but I really, really fucking hate this art style, so damn much. It's powerfully ugly to me and I wouldn't ever want to watch a full movie of this. There is plenty of CG animation (or CG-supplemented hand-drawn animation) that I enjoy, and I'm sure Pixar animators are very talented and all, but the typical Pixar art style is just so horribly unappealing to me.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
GREAT 2D animation usually makes itself apparent to me, it stands out from anything else.
GREAT 3D animation however, shows itself as a whole, I look at it and think its pretty rather than well animated (which it is, of course)
Lots of people in this thread falling for really good production tricks that make something look really well animated when not that much is going on though, always funny to see
GREAT 3D animation however, shows itself as a whole, I look at it and think its pretty rather than well animated (which it is, of course)
Lots of people in this thread falling for really good production tricks that make something look really well animated when not that much is going on though, always funny to see
ImaLemming
Member
Oh my god.
In 30 years this scene has rarely been matched, whether in terms of craftsmanship, direction, or creativity.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Fair point.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Yes ofc. i just mean that in those cases you get the fluitity for "free".
Mr_Antimatter
Member
With any post 90's anime, for example, you get a lot of hybridization. Even if it's all 2d, often it's drawn digitally rather then by painting cells, which is far more manpower and time consuming.
American animation is much the same these days.
American animation is much the same these days.
KonradLaw
Member
No. Even the best full on 3D shows still look off, especially characters. They've gotten better and better at merging 2D and 3D, but full on 3D still has ways to go.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is full on 3D.
There's nothing inherent about 3D that doesn't allow it to fully emulate 2D in this day and age. Especially at the most talented and well-funded studios. You shoudl also refer to the films that more directly try to emulate the look of 2D than Disney and Pixar's output, and how they achieve that look:
KonradLaw
Member
This is full on 3D.
Yes and in no shape or form does it look anything like 2D.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's not supposed to be a 1:1 translation. Rather a direct emulation of the style. And it looks fantastic.
I disagree
KonradLaw
Member
It looks nice, but nobody will ever mistake it for 2D, so that was really weird example. I bet it still looks better than how the movie would look like if they tried to pretend it's 2D.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Lmfao it straight up looks better than the old cartoon it's emulating:
I mean it's very clearly emulating the look right down to how the characters are rigged and animated. It's not being mistaken for 2D as that's not the intention. I'm saying the notion that 3D can't emulate that look ignores what's possible with modeling and animation tools.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Im guessing it was meant to point out that not everything has the (character) design of pixar/dreamworks that had a very samey-look.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Disagree strongly. It's BS when it's done with serious budget constraints and outsourcing. All your examples in OP are such.
Lights and Waves
Member
Something that I'm impressed by is a lot of OLDER cartoons are actually amazingly fluid.
Fleischer Superman cartoons still hold up to this day.
Isn't this rotoscope? If so, that's cheating.
Lmfao it straight up looks better than the old cartoon it's emulating:
I mean it's very clearly emulating the look right down to how the characters are rigged and animated. It's not being mistaken for 2D as that's not the intention. I'm saying the notion that 3D can't emulate that look ignores what's possible with modeling and animation tools.
I think I'd like this better if they took the time to stylize the background like Schulz did.
KonradLaw
Member
Which is fine, but I never suggested it was all the same. I mean, we are in gaming forum with plenty of anime threads on offtopic section, so we are all familiar with various styles of 3D CG, from photo-realism attempts typical for videogame trailers, through pixar stylized, ending with current anime's attempts to create fake 2D with 3D models. And the last type still has a long way to go. So much that 3D that's inspired to cartoon styles tend to look a lot better than if you try to fake 2D with polygonal models.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Why would it be cheating (in general)? It's a technique used since the birth of animation.
It would only be cheating If there was a rule against it.
Robdraggoo
Member
I get its opinion, but il put the best ghibli or peak disney up against the best of cgi any day of the week.
It's how all the classic disney animated movies were made.
I mean, in my eyes at least, the best 2d animation will always look better than the best 3d animation, same as the worst 2d animation will always look better than the worst 3d animation. So I would generally say it's superior to 3d, yeah. But that doesn't mean there aren't 3d things that are leagues above tons of 2d stuff. Naturally not every 2d animation is going to be superior to 3d.
I will say, though, when it comes to anime at least? If I had to choose between seeing naruto filler level of bad animation or cg, I would probably pick the naruto filler. If it's going to look terrible regardless, at least that way it blends in more.
I will say, though, when it comes to anime at least? If I had to choose between seeing naruto filler level of bad animation or cg, I would probably pick the naruto filler. If it's going to look terrible regardless, at least that way it blends in more.
It's all very well animated, but the art style is too clean. It's supposed to emulate a children's comic/playbook, but instead it looks like something from the uncanny valley where realism has taken over bits of an imaginative world with its own set of rules and we can't help but get weirded out by it. /Insertsimpsonsin3Dreference
LordKasual
Banned
what is all this talk of "cheating"
if it looks good, that's all that matters....
if it looks good, that's all that matters....
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Right? lol
If so, it fails, because it looks nothing like 2D whatsoever.
I also highly disagree with this.
No, just one I think. Sleeping Beauty. The rest use filmed references, close but not the same.
