Support NeoGAF

[Version 3.0]

In this recent era of Dark Souls' popularity, the topic of difficult video games has come up quite often. I constantly see Demon's / Dark Souls referred to as "one of the most difficult games ever made", or variants on the phrase. The same is true of a number of games. Google "most difficult video game of all time", and you'll find plenty of top 10 lists. And if you look over them, you'll find a handful of games well represented on said lists. Such as:

Ghosts n Goblins / Ghouls n Ghosts
Battletoads
Dark Souls / Demon's Souls
F-Zero GX
Castlevania
Ninja Gaiden (either the old school or more recent 3D ones)
Mega Man

And even, laughably, Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

Which brings me to my point: these games are not that difficult. They can be beaten. I've beaten most of them, many times. I'm not trying to brag. I'm good at games, but not great. I'm not on the top of any leaderboards. I don't do no-death playthroughs or speedruns. I hold no records. I'm in awe of true prodigies (or idiot savants, my ego insists) who completely master games and make the rest of us look like amateurs.

But these games are well-designed, and they're designed to be won. I beat them by learning that design well enough to win. Some games are not designed in such a way.

For example, just this past weekend, I played through Street Fighter 2010 (using save states on the Wii U) and Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage on the SNES (using a game genie for infinite lives). I can't even imagine trying to beat these without these types of cheats. They're certainly much, much more difficult than any of the games above with these hardcore reputations. And there are certainly far tougher examples.

So, why is that? Why do these games, which are objectively NOT the hardest ever made, enjoy this notoriety? Is it just because they're hard, but good (or popular)? Is it because they're hard, but not impossible?

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

 

[Chemical Rampancy]

I think it's just notoriety.

Dark Souls 1/2 are 5/10 and 4/10 on the difficulty scale in comparison to games like F-Zero GX which is a solid 9.

 

[cancerdancer]

The hardest games made come from an era where getting every last quarter was the business model. The Souls series is hard compared to the shift in games where there are plentiful checkpoints and "wait to heal" mechanics. Those old NES games are balls hard because if they were easy would probably only last 2 hours.

 

[thequickandthedead]

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

 

[brinstar]

I dunno man, F-Zero GX Story Mode on max difficulty is enough to make a grown man cry

 

[Manu]

I've beaten all three Souls games (used coop sometimes though), and yet I've never got past level 3 in Battletoads.

That's a hard, cheap-ass game.

 

[_woLf]

Depends on if we're talking frustrating/bullshit hard or required skill hard

Because if it's frustrating/bullshit hard, War of the Worlds for Xbox Live Arcade takes that cake without a single doubt.

 

[Fugu]

These games lie on the fault line of difficulty and popularity; it's as simple as that.

A more in-depth look at this is basically impossible, because difficulty and outright poor gameplay really start to converge at the top end. I would therefore argue that, for example, the NES Ninja Gaidens are some of the most difficult games ever made that aren't also just terrible games.

 

[nkarafo]

For me, the most difficult stuff is old shoot em ups and bullet hell games on coin ops. Or maybe i suck at them.

Also, the arcade version of Bubble Bobble looks impossible on later levels (80 and above) to me. Never managed to beat that game without cheats.

Ghost and Goblins, another impossible game for me, again in coin ops (dunno about the home versions).


I have beaten Dark Souls (offline only) and about 99% of F-Zero GX (and some staff ghosts as well) and i even thought the 3D Ninja Gaiden games weren't that hard. But many coin ops are simply impossible for me.

 

[Paradise Brunch]

100% depiction of the game

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Anyone can make the "hardest" game of all time. Just release an unplayable mess and call it the world's most difficult video game.

I thought it was commonly accepted that "hardest" doesn't apply when it's simply bad design or poor controls.

 

[TheChocoboCadet]

Nearly forgot about the Pooh game. I was so close to wiping away those scarring memories..

 

[Version 3.0]

I dunno man, F-Zero GX Story Mode on max difficulty is enough to make a grown man cry

It made me bite my own finger off, sure, but I beat it. Therefore, it's not as hard as games I can't beat.

These games lie on the fault line of difficulty and popularity; it's as simple as that.

Succinctly put. I like that.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

F Zero GX is pretty damn hard, man.

While it's true that games like Dark Souls aren't too difficult once you learn them, learning them is still a relatively unforgiving task for newcomers and I don't think it's that unreasonable to call them difficult. Anything is easy eventually if you learn.

Good difficult design is conquerable, there are plenty of "hard" games that are just bullshit bad but I think there's an implied "hardest games that also don't suck" disclaimer when people talk about this stuff.

 

[L.C.M. Taylon]

Nowadays if you repeat a section more than twice the game is already considered hard.

 

[grim-tales]

What about this?

 

[Starzonedge]

Souls series is probably one of the hardest yet fairest games.

 

[7threst]

It's a difference between good games and shitty games. Bad design frustrates, good design keeps challenging you. Probably just a small part of a bigger story but yeah.

 

[Armaros]

I dunno man, F-Zero GX Story Mode on max difficulty is enough to make a grown man cry

And then watching the speedrunners ace it like its nothing makes you just weep.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

The majority of people do not even got unlocked ax circuits on fzero gx.
I think the game was just a tad difficult for my tastes. The story mode in max difficulty is just absurd. The game is great but i think fzero needs to be challenging, not destroy controllers difficult.

 

[Leatherface]

Omg.Just thinking about Street Fighter 2010 makes my fingers hurt from the childhood memories. :'(

Beat the hell out of all the rest of the old school games you mentioned though. Love me some Ghouls and Ghosts!

 

[BibiMaghoo]

The 'hard' moniker of Dark Souls actually means 'punishing'.

The game isn't hard, it just fucks you severely for making a mistake. Robbing you of money, experience and making you fight everything from the last bonfire to the point you died again.

Actually hard? Racing games. All of them on high difficulties. ALL OF THEM.

 

[Lionheart1827]

I think its just the fact that for awhile everyone has been subject to a ton of handholding in games without much balls hard challenge. So when a series like Souls comes around, its very apparent when it does and makes it seem like its harder than it is.

In the grand scheme of things though, yeah a ton of NES games alone are hard. Castlevania 3, Ninja Gaiden 1, and Battletoads come to mind. AVGN does a good job showing some really bullshit hard games, like Silver Surfer for instance.

I still haven't beaten F-zero GX story mode on the 2nd to last difficulty mode, let alone the hardest. THAT is difficult.

 

[nkarafo]

Dark Souls is only difficult because it was released in a generation of average joe and casual games. It's not that its so much difficult by itself, it's that most other games are piss easy in comparison.

 

[Dragon1893]

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

I beat Back to the Future 3 on the Mega Drive, that shit was hard lol.
Being a kid with lots of free time and no money for games sucked lol.

 

[Falk]

100% depiction of the game

Bahahahahahahah

 

[KidB]

The Souls games aren't hard, they're punishing.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The Souls games are not anywhere near "impossible" as many people say, but I think the overall sensation of difficulty is comparable to many old school arcade style games due to differences in length. Classic games were often short but intense, and the general amount of retrying to learn the game within that length isn't far off from fully blowing out a Souls game. At least in a lot of cases.

It is interesting to me, because a relatively common argument is that no game should not be as difficult as many classic games. The reasoning being that those games had "artificial" difficulty to make them last longer, therefore their difficulty is somehow not valid game design. On one hand, it is true that many arcade and NES games were made difficult to give them long-term value. On the other hand, many people don't seem to understand that limitations breed quality and craftsmanship.

Some older games do have poorly designed difficulty curves, especially arcade titles intended to eat quarters rather than reward skilled play. But many classics are actually incredibly replayable to this day because of the nuance involved with learning the games. Some folks are still refining their tactics in 8-bit Mega Man titles which they've beaten dozens of times. A lot of game designers of that era were concerned about making an actual good game, not just a difficult one.

 

[Fury451]

Depends on definition of hard. The Souls games and Bloodborne are hard, but fair once you learn the mechanics, shortcuts, and design. It's about playing by the game'a rules, and eventually turning those rules on the game itself. That just takes patience, determination, and learning from your mistakes, which aren't as prominent of gaming skills anymore.

Then there are "cheap" games which are fake hard due to poor design, or intentionally requiring near laser like precision- more frustrating than fun.

Personal vote to one of the hardest games of all time is Contra: Shattered Soldier. It is good, just very, very difficult to master.

 

[Sephzilla]

The Souls games are the pinnacle of "hard but fair". The Souls games don't really fall into the 'bullshit hard' realm that some of the OP's titles do.

 

[Ivan 3414]

F-Zero GX is pretty damn hard. I haven't touched the game just because I saw one of my friends play the story mode. Turned me off immediately.

 

[mrjohill]

Best thread of all time

 

[convo]

I think it's just notoriety.

Yep. Hyperbole most of the time. And the individual decides how hard something is for them too.

 

[FStop7]

CMD+F Ikaruga

no results.


:|

 

[Servbot24]

Souls is absolutely difficult. Anyone can beat it, sure, but that doesn't make the task of doing so easy.

It's certainly not as masochistic as some would claim though.

 

[truth411]

KILLZONE 2 on Elite difficulty!!!! Absolutely Brutal yet Rewarding.

 

[PSqueak]

Edit: deleted the quote, don't know what i was thinking.

Being hard doesn't mean that games have to be neither unfair nor impossible to beat.

A good hard game is challenging, but beatable, just because you beat these games doesnt mean they're not difficult.

I mean, i myself have beaten the original Megaman, Ninja gaiden (nes) and F-zero GX (beaten, but not completed as i haven done all missions in the hardest setting), that doesn't mean they werent hard as hell.

 

[L.C.M. Taylon]

Dark Souls is only difficult because it was released in a generation of average joe and casual games. It's not that its so much difficult by itself, it's that most other games are piss easy in comparison.

LOL

Some games are so ridiculous in the difficulty design that happened to me sometimes, I die and be "teleported" forward, all because chekpoints for each step.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Fully completing everything on F-Zero GX on the hardest difficulty is the hardest game-related thing I've done. Some old school games come in second. Dark Souls just gets notoriety because it's popular and popular games don't tend to be very difficult. Also, I haven't seen or heard someone call Dark Souls 1/2 the "hardest game ever made" even on gaf. I'm sure someone has said it though, just that it's not some hugely popular opinion.

 

[AwShucks]

People take games they have played and choose the hardest games from those. So obviously the more popular games will generally have more hits on Google.

 

[theechrisfox]

Game difficulty often gets confused with punitive mechanics that are designed to teach the player. Like how in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 the player is penalized for dying by losing their maximum HP up to the point where they hold 50% of the normal max value. This and losing all exp upon death is a punishment mechanic that creates artificial difficulty. Whatever caused the player to fail hasn't changed from attempt to attempt, only their ability to stay alive and continue to practice has been diminished. Older games don't really do this. You can memorize your way through a game like Ghosts 'n Goblins or Contra, but in the Souls games you have to use awareness to beat the environment.

I think the hardest game I've played lately is OlliOlli 2. No punitive mechanics, memorizing hardly helps, its all about practicing to get better each attempt.

 

[Artanisix]

"CMD+F Ikaruga

no results.


:|"

Not a particularly difficult game for shmup fans unless you're going for a high score (which is 99% of the fun).

Dark Souls is hardly as brutal as its fanbase tries to make it seem.

 

[cirrhosis]

I see that Silver Surfer is already posted.

Well done.

 

[Sylverstone14]

This game is truly something out of hell.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

I've beaten both Dark Souls, Battletoads, all NES Mega Man games, Contra without the Konami Code.

And yet... I dread the day I faced Christopher Robin.
This Pooh's game was created by an ancient deity to teach humility to gamers everywhere.

 

[Overside]

Souls is absolutely difficult. Anyone can beat it, sure, but that doesn't make the task of doing so easy.

It's certainly not as masochistic as some would claim though.

It's really not that hard. It's punishing, sure, but not hard. It's slow, predictable, and easily exploitable.

 

[Version 3.0]

Fully completing everything on F-Zero GX on the hardest difficulty is the hardest game-related thing I've done.

Definitely the one thing I'd point to for myself, too, and I have on multiple occasions.

Some old school games come in second. Dark Souls just gets notoriety because it's popular and popular games don't tend to be very difficult. Also, I haven't seen or heard someone call Dark Souls 1/2 the "hardest game ever made" even on gaf. I'm sure someone has said it though, just that it's not some hugely popular opinion.

Demon's and Dark are both on multiple top ten "hardest" lists. I was perusing a bunch of them before creating the thread.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

The Souls games are the pinnacle of "hard but fair". The Souls games don't really fall into the 'bullshit hard' realm that some of the OP's titles do.

I'd say this is true, they aren't perfect they suffer from stuff I'm not even going to get into because the GAFhive will decend on me with their superiority complex. But fair and hard seems about the right statement.

They ain't a cake walk and they require you to know how they play and the tricks they are going to pull like hidden archer/shooter, Flash mobs and item lures.

 

[LaserHawk]

Ghosts n Goblins / Ghouls n Ghosts
Battletoads
Dark Souls / Demon's Souls
F-Zero GX
Castlevania
Ninja Gaiden (either the old school or more recent 3D ones)
Mega Man

There are plenty on that list where I think, "Yeah, that's not too hard." I never even thought of Mega Man or F-Zero GX as "hard" games. And I feel like Castlevania 3 was harder than the original Castlevania.

But Battletoads? I think it really IS a tough game. And no, I'm not one of those wieners that quit at the level 3 speederbikes. I've gotten to the last level without a Game Genie. Battletoads is difficult thanks to poor design. Too many times the flow of the game requires you to be killed by an obstacle you had no way of knowing about, and then surpassing it (hopefully) on the next life. That kind of design makes the game a war on your patience and memory instead of just a test of your reflexes.

And I remember Ghosts and Goblins being REALLY hard, but it's been so long since I've played it that maybe I should go back re-test it. But knowing the dick move it pulls on you at the end of the game, I already sort of know it won't be worth it.

 

[Dicer]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuu!