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[Neff]

I can't see any actual reasoning in OP's post as to why this is a reality aside from a terrible analogy and the vague and simply untrue assumption that gaming trends are somehow frozen in time forever. I've been playing games too long and seen too many demographic shifts and allegiances jump ship to put long-term faith in any kind of purported static market.

If there's money to be made for 3rd party publishers on Nintendo systems due to viable tech and healthy install bases, they'll do it. It's really down to Nintendo whether this happens or not, and always has been.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

What the NX needs to do to have third party games:

Multiplayer functionality on par with PS4/XB1.
Hardware specs on par with PS4/XB1.
People to actually buy third party games.

In short, not gonna happen.

 

[Kolx]

That's why the NX will probably have several form factors with easy to port games between the handheld and console version. Nintendo does a ton of games, the problem was supporting two different systems.

Plus they seem to have a healthy relationship with Namco/Tecmo/Platinum so they will keep getting games from them.

If Nintendo plays this well, they'll be fine.

except none of these three have games that sells hugely like what R*, EA & Activation for example do in the west.

Nintendo need the full support of third party because what they've now is no where near enough.

 

[jroc74]

I think it's more franchise specific than it is publisher.

When companies like Activision or EA make watered down ports of the proper games XB and PS are getting, then it doesn't really count as "supporting"

Its kind of hard to make a proper port when specs seem to be a generation behind.

The Wii output to 480p....that alone makes it seem more comparable to orig Xbox, PS2.
The Wii U seem more comparable to, only marginally ahead of the PS3, 360 than comparable to the PS4, XBO.

That or the specs always seem to be coming up last vs the other 2. How can one really do a proper port? It would make sense for it to be watered down. Them releasing the NX well before the next PS and XB means it might come up short again.

Lets look at it this way: (based on specs targets)

Develop for, target PC
Next in line - PS, Xbox
Next in line after that - Nintendo.

And PC/PS, Xbox can flip flop for targets.

How can Nintendo ever have a true proper port of 3rd party games? Add to that some type of very specific controller after the SNES...its no wonder the 3rd party environment is the way it is on Nintendo. I dont know what happened after the SNES but they have lost 3rd parties. Failing to move forward with the times (cartridges, mini discs, online support/infrastructure, etc) has really hurt their 3rd party relationships after to SNES.

 

[Wandering Robot]

I only read the OP (lol), but I can think of two alternatives off the top of my head:

1. Nintendo has the RIGHT third-party support that brings them success
2. Some future architecture (NX?) is so incredibly ahead of everything else that the market shifts towards it

I don't know how either of those would work, but at the end of the day I don't think third-party support is the one thing that'll promise success for Nintendo. The right support, to parrot myself, will probably take precedence. Doesn't mean they have to change everything about themselves to appease the market; it also doesn't mean Nintendo doesn't need to revalue their relationships with the third parties. Who knows what they'll do, really--the Wii certainly wasn't predicated to end up as it did. I'll be interested to see where Nintendo goes from the NX onward in that respect.

 

[Abounder]

Multiplatform scalability is the status quo and future of video gaming. Nintendo needs to make business deals to support the big game engines like UE4 but I think their next devices will be friendly to third parties, and they could definitely use brands like Minecraft, Star Wars, sports, etc. The N64 era did not skimp out on global brands and titles like Goldeneye basically carried the system. Nintendo needs to go global and hopefully it won't introduce premium user accounts in the process

 

[Neoxon]

except none of these three have games that sells hugely like what R*, EA & Activation for example do in the west.

Nintendo need the full support of third party because what they've now is no where near enough.

But the combined effort of their console & portable games as well as the few third party friends they have left may be enough.

 

[Teeth]

intellectually dishonest, really?

It's always funny when people are saying "heyho, motion controls are dead. See even Nintendo dropped them", and then you tell them that motion controls are in fact inside their brand new DS4. Inside the Wii U gamepad and so on.

If motion controls were actually dead, noone would actually build them into their controllers. It's that simple.

And you know what - developers back on the Wii used motion controls for all sorts of silly cases, even when it made no sense to use them (see Donkey Kong Country Returns on Wii. Motion controls actually hurt that game). That's always the case with new technology. You got a brand new hammer and now everything looks like a nail.

Now they have matured. You don't have to put them inside every game. You use them when it makes sense to use them. And you don't use them, when it makes no sense. And when you use them, you use them properly. Positive examples: Batman Crime Scene investigation on Wii U, Splatoon Gyro aiming, Captain Toad.

Cool. Name one on PS4 that isn't a PS3 game.

 

[killatopak]

I think the problem is just the power of the hardware and while you could say something about the Gamecube, it was just a little to late to the party so there were minimal support.

 

[Aureon]

The publisher ecosystem/pipeline can only support 2 consoles and PC (and handheld games which have mostly went to mobile).

[MASSIVE citation needed]

 

[Wickerbasket]

Cool. Name one on PS4 that isn't a PS3 game.

Killzone used it, and those bits were terrible.

In fact, all the instances of it being used on PS4 are terrible.

I guess you can use it to type on the keyboard, which is also terrible.

I'm kind of glad more games don't adopt that stuff, because I can't remember it ever working out well.

Edit: Also I hated Splatoons Gyro aiming, I turned that off as soon as I could.

 

[Mithos]

What the NX needs to do to have third party games:

Multiplayer functionality on par with PS4/XB1.
Hardware specs on par with PS4/XB1.
People to actually buy third party games.

In short, not gonna happen.

Agreed. Because Nintendo will not.

Charge $/€50/year for multiplayer
Make hardware as powerfull/less as PS4/XB1
Thirdparties will not make quality ports/version of their games on Nintendoplatforms worth paying more then $/€10 for, so people will not buy enough games for thirdparties to be happy.

 

[chaosblade]

I think the problem is just the power of the hardware and while you could say something about the Gamecube, it was just a little to late to the party so there were minimal support.

Gamecube came out around the same time as the Xbox. And the disc size issue isn't nearly as big of a deal as most people make it out to be, most of the games that wouldn't fit were RPGs with tons of prerendered cutscenes and only a handful of open world games. IIRC only one of the GTA games wouldn't have fit on a GC disc.


I think OP is right, it's a combination of a downward spiral of people not buying the games, so publishers don't make the games, so people can't buy the games; and a resulting mental block of sorts that leaves people thinking/assuming "Nintendo hardware = Nintendo games," which deepens that spiral. Barring Nintendo practically funding/developing ports for games on their system I don't see their third party situation changing. They could make the most powerful hardware, they could have the most developer friendly tools and support, if there is no money in it for publishers they won't care. See the PS2 for the exact opposite situation.

That's also why Nintendo can't be too risky with their hardware. They can't effectively use a loss leader strategy because they can't assume they will have third party royalties to cover those losses. If their own games are forced to cover their hardware expenses and their development expenses, the hardware side would be a money bleeding dead weight.



I also think a lot of people don't realize how negative Nintendo's image is among "casual" gamers that mostly play AAA type games. Over the last several years I've rarely heard Nintendo come up in a gaming discussion in a manner that wasn't negative.

 

[VariantX]

Killzone used it, and those bits were terrible.

In fact, all the instances of it being used on PS4 are terrible.

I guess you can use it to type on the keyboard, which is also terrible.

I'm kind of glad more games don't adopt that stuff, because I can't remember it ever working out well.

Edit: Also I hated Splatoons Gyro aiming, I turned that off as soon as I could.

Think Infamous uses it too when you go around tagging stuff.

 

[Teeth]

Killzone used it, and those bits were terrible.

In fact, all the instances of it being used on PS4 are terrible.

I guess you can use it to type on the keyboard, which is also terrible.

I'm kind of glad more games don't adopt that stuff, because I can't remember it ever working out well.

Edit: Also I hated Splatoons Gyro aiming, I turned that off as soon as I could.

So yeah, not much. I don't really have a horse in this fight; I don't hate motion controls or Nintendo. I just don't think that motion controls belong in the pantheon of things that Nintendo invented/popularized for console games.

Dpad - used by pretty much every console game going forward
L and R buttons - used by pretty much every console game going forward
Diamond face buttons - used by pretty much every console game going forward
Analog stick - used by pretty much every console game going forward
Rumble - used by pretty much every console game going forward
Motion controls - used by...some games? Sort of? Mostly poorly outside of a select few games?

 

[Sanke__]

Uhm.... Nintendo could just make a fucking system that supports games designed with xbone/ps4 in mind instead of forcing 3rd parties to support weaker hardware and some stupid gimmick

Spoiler

but they won't

 

[antonz]

Uhm.... Nintendo could just make a fucking system that supports games designed with xbone/ps4 in mind instead of forcing 3rd parties to support weaker hardware and some stupid gimmick

Spoiler

but they won't

Did not help the gamecube. People can lay all the blame on Nintendo and they certainly have their bulk of the blame but 3rd parties have also made it pretty clear to most people who will buy Nintendo hardware that real effort is unlikely to be found so its best to avoid their effort in the first place.

Nintendo needs better 3rd party outreach and 3rd parties need better outreach.

 

[Jessmo111]

Like mentioned NINTENDO needs to lead the genre they are trying to establish.

If they. Want the bro dude shooter crowd they need a AAA top shelf shooter (maybe 2 or 3 to start).

If they want horror games, they need to lock the games to their system.

The system has to be strong enough to impress with no gimmicks. Once buyers get the Genre leading game on the system then they will buy the CODs and Res. Look at how Halo almost single handedly built a demographic.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

All they need is to match hardware with the other two and they'll have third party support.

The tastes of the niche Nintendo audience do not match those of the mainstream gaming public. As long as they continue to insist on being out-of-touch special little snowflakes, Nintendo will continue to slide into irrelevance.

 

[StevieP]

The tastes of the niche Nintendo audience do not match those of the mainstream gaming public. As long as they continue to insist on being out-of-touch special little snowflakes, Nintendo will continue to slide into irrelevance.

You should probably wait A couple years until the ps4 outsells the 3ds before making statements like these.

 

[RoadHazard]

Truth. And no, just releasing a PS4 equivalent won't be enough. There are many other factors at play here, as the Gamecube (more powerful than the PS2, more/less powerful than the Xbox in different ways) showed.

 

[Windows RT]

Or they need the people who buy their hardware to buy the software third parties put on them if they want third party support.

This x 1000000!!!!

I am one of them that only buy Nintendo softwares on Nintendo hardwares. I am one of the problem....

 

[Earthpainting]

Getting third party support is only part of the equation. An equally tricky part is getting consumers to actually buy these third party games. When you own multiple systems, controller preferences, friend lists, achievements, system features, and version differences will start weighing in a lot. The biggest one of course is that some genres or types of games have healthier community on certain systems. This is immensely important for games with on-line components. Unless cross-platform multi-player is going to start becoming a thing, this is going to be Nintendo's biggest Achilles' heel.

 

[Aostia]

Third party supoprt on Nintendo home console actually is a delusion.
Japanese support on portable devices instead is almost a lock.
Everything can change in terms of third party, for the exact reason that they are third parties, but I can't really see a landscape where the two points I made could drastically change.
What Nintendo should do is trying to increase their output (probably integrating it between portable and home console), and offer a better development space for Japanese third parties to develop their "3DS" games also for the "Wii U" of the situation (as Sony was able to do with the PS landscape, with tons of games coming out for PS3/4/Vita)

 

[openrob]

Exactly, because the gamecube had 1:1 feature set parity between the PS2/Xbox... oh, wait

Mini discs
Controller with less buttons, and a terrible right analog
Online...HA!

Who was online with the PS2 lol?

Plus they seem to have a healthy relationship with Namco/Tecmo/Platinum so they will keep getting games from them.

Platinum is a developer, not a publisher, hence why Wii U ain't getting no Korra love, because it was published by Activision.

But aside from that, yeah.

• EA
• Take-Two
• Square Enix
• Ubisoft
• Activision
• Sega (If they continue to make console games)
• Konami (If they continue to make console games)
• Capcom
• Bandai Namco
• Zenimax
• Warner Interactive

.

... especially when you consider that companies like Capcom, Konami and Sega are (unfortunately) less relevant than they've ever been.

So basically, they need western publishers on board?

 

[catmario]

Well the sure thing is that Nintendo should work really, really harder to bring them back to their Software eco system.

Their absence is too big for nintendo.

 

[DOG3NZAKA]

All Nintendo needs to do is offer a unique user experience that you can't get anywhere else. One that has a clear target demographic, that isn't mired with confusing branding and one where devs don't have to make too many compromises due to something like, slow, outdated memory. That's been the secret to their success this whole time until the Wii U.

We are all pretty sure that NX will be some console/ mobile hybrid that will finally bring forth Nintendo's vision of combining hand held and console gaming. As long as it's relatively fast, powerful and its UI, system and online features are intuitive, accessible and convenient, I'll be happy

 

[KHlover]

This x 1000000!!!!

I am one of them that only buy Nintendo softwares on Nintendo hardwares. I am one of the problem....

Me too. Feel a bit sorry for Nintendo but as a consumer I'm not going to play shitty Wii or Wii U ports when I have a PC (inb4 Arkham Knight jokes) at home, that wouldn't make sense. We're trapped in a chicken/egg cycle here and it won't get any better until 3rd party ports on NX will have at least the same quality as on Playstation/Xbox. Possily even pretty far beyond simple parity, especially for MP games, since people will need to have a reason to buy it on Nintendo instead of PS/XBOX/PC where all of their friends are.

 

[driver116]

Third party support as in CoD, GTA, AC etc? Do Nintendo really need these franchises? I kind of like the concentration of Nintendo exclusives and third party exclusives they have right now on Wii U. What they need is more of them imo.

 

[Storm Kyleis]

The publishers have no reason to support Nintendo.

The publishers have no reason to support a weak, old fashioned console with a unique infrastructure and a tiny installed base. Development costs are high, returns are low.

There's no conspiracy against Nintendo. Make a console worth developing for and publishers will develop for it.

 

[RoadHazard]

All Nintendo needs to do is offer a unique user experience that you can't get anywhere else. One that has a clear target demographic, that isn't mired with confusing branding and one where devs don't have to make too many compromises due to something like, slow, outdated memory. That's been the secret to their success this whole time until the Wii U.

"This whole time"? The only console that fits what you're describing here is the Wii, except that it doesn't either, because it was very outdated hardware-wise. Their consoles before that were rather traditional, and each was less successful than the last. So the thing you're talking about doesn't actually exist at all.

 

[RibMan]

Third party support as in CoD, GTA, AC etc? Do Nintendo really need these franchises? I kind of like the concentration of Nintendo exclusives and third party exclusives they have right now on Wii U. What they need is more of them imo.

Nintendo needs third-party support because Nintendo cannot a) make an unlimited amount of hits and b) serve both casual audiences and core audiences with their output.

Even at the height of its success, the Wii was considered an extremely casual-oriented device, leaving an entire audience of gamers waiting for "hardcore Wii games". Red Steel, Mad World, Silent Hill, No More Heroes, COD, etc. were not enough to satisfy hardcore gamers on the Wii. On the Wii U, the third-party support is worse, so it would be in Nintendo's best interest(s) to make the NX as third-party friendly as possible.

 

[KHlover]

Third party support as in CoD, GTA, AC etc? Do Nintendo really need these franchises? I kind of like the concentration of Nintendo exclusives and third party exclusives they have right now on Wii U. What they need is more of them imo.

If they want to attract the audience that currently only plays on Playstation or Xbox - yes they do. Look at the sales of those series. Nintendo can't just ignore them.

 

[Visualante2]

My personal theory on the matter is that studios are artist driven now. They want to work on the most powerful hardware, and working on Wii U is a demotion, if not something that might hamper your skills.

Publishers are only interested in playing it safe, they want to spend a lot of money on an audience they know exists. With the Wii by the time it blew up many were scrambling to try and capitalise on it. While Sega and Ubisoft sort of reaped the benefits of getting in early.

I don't personally buy into the argument that there is something different about the Nintendo audience. It always seems to be Nintendo's fault. They slept on Minecraft, they let Media Molecule get away. They only appear to understand the value of indies now they have a giant gap in their release schedule. It's always too little too late with this company. I think the best thing for them would be to have Western talent come in to architect the system, and OS.

 

[DOG3NZAKA]

"This whole time"? The only console that fits what you're describing here is the Wii, except that it doesn't either, because it was very outdated hardware-wise. Their consoles before that were rather traditional, and each was less successful than the last. So the thing you're talking about doesn't actually exist at all.

NES and Super NES don't fit my description?

 

[-MB-]

You gotta wonder what incentive a 3rd party has to even support a 3rd console here.
You attract either consumers who already buy your games on PC or the other 2 consoles, or you get Nintendo gamers who also own a PS4/XBone/PC and buy 3rd parties there, so you basically have to spend extra money for a port to yet another system.
Much safer for them to just keep supporting the systems they already do instead of wasting time.
And I don't see a hardcore Nintendo system totally dedicated to attracting core gamers from the other 3 systems expanding the base to make it worth either.
And I don't think there are many Nintendo only gamers that only game on Nintendo systems to make it worthwhile either.

And it would cost Nintendo billions to even put out a system and associated games to appeal to that hardcore base anyway, which would put them in financial risk, and not even a garantuee of success.

 

[Clefargle]

OP is
clairvoyant confirmed

 

[shaowebb]

I think it's more franchise specific than it is publisher.

When companies like Activision or EA make watered down ports of the proper games XB and PS are getting, then it doesn't really count as "supporting"

This. And OP I buy consoles for Koei because Musou means a lot to me. Hyrule Warriors was the tipping point for many to own a Wii U just like how an Orochi 4 or Dynasty Warriors 9 would be a tipping point for me to buy another console. You didn't seem to list them conveniently enough even though they have exclusives across several consoles.

Its franchises...not publisher.

 

[copelandmaster]

They actually had another perfect moment in 2012. If the Wii U had a Radeon 7770 class GPU, 2-3GB of GDDR5, and an X86 CPU, it would have provided a very significant leap over previous generation hardware. And it would have enjoyed the benefits of being the only next-gen system on the market for a whole year. Plus, at that point 3rd parties were already retooling or designing their engines with x86 and a GCN GPU. If that was the case, then I'm willing to bet that almost all current gem engines would be capable of providing easy ports. All that for a whole year entirely to itself.

7770 is Xb1 tier tho, and they often get 900p. PS4 is a 7850+ for mostly 1080p. If Wii U had a card+cpu that got 720p multiplats (otherwise the same as PS4/XB1), they'd be a lot better off. The hardware BOM wouldn't have cost as much as PS4/XB1, they'd all have the same/similar AMD sourced parts. Lower costs for all 3.

This time, their positioning is even worse because of an even earlier launch. They will have to deal with PS5/XB2. If they aimed for a modern (no esram bs pls) AMD SoC that could do 1080p/1440p vs PS5/XB2's inevitable 2160p/1880p/1440p, they could at least meet min computational HW spec for multi plats.

That's not all they need. Getting the rest of their house in order is just as important.

Who was online with the PS2 lol?

These. LAN and iLink were also a thing. PS2 v1 had an adapter and PS2 v2 had Ethernet built in. Pretty sure Socom was like the PS2's online killer app. They even had FFXI.

Didn't the GC have an adapter too, to play for example Phantasy star online?

Yeah. But there's quite a bit of difference in terms of support/killer apps, lol. Plus, GC never got an ethernet revision.

 

[Aostia]

These. LAN and iLink were also a thing. PS2 v1 had an adapter and PS2 v2 had Ethernet built in. Pretty sure Socom was like the PS2's online killer app. They even had FFXI.

Didn't the GC have an adapter too, to play for example Phantasy star online?

 

[SmokedMeat]

NES and Super NES don't fit my description?

What "unique user experience" was there on NES and SNES that the competition lacked?

 

[10k]

What "unique user experience" was there on NES and SNES that the competition lacked?

Exclusive games from square and Nintendo mostly, restrictive rules for third party publishers, and Nintendo having the largest market share and mindshare during those consoles life cycles.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Exclusive games from square and Nintendo mostly, restrictive rules for third party publishers, and Nintendo having the largest market share and mindshare during those consoles life cycles.

That's not a unique user experience.

 

[Neoxon]

All Nintendo needs to do is offer a unique user experience that you can't get anywhere else. One that has a clear target demographic, that isn't mired with confusing branding and one where devs don't have to make too many compromises due to something like, slow, outdated memory. That's been the secret to their success this whole time until the Wii U.

We are all pretty sure that NX will be some console/ mobile hybrid that will finally bring forth Nintendo's vision of combining hand held and console gaming. As long as it's relatively fast, powerful and its UI, system and online features are intuitive, accessible and convenient, I'll be happy

No we're not, because that's already been shot down.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Sad but probably very true.

The people thinking that 3rd parties are just itching to jump back on board with NX are in for a rough time. Nintendo consoles are bought for Nintendo games. Simple as that.

 

[Neoxon]

Sad but probably very true.

The people thinking that 3rd parties are just itching to jump back on board with NX are in for a rough time. Nintendo consoles are bought for Nintendo games. Simple as that.

This. That's not to say Nintendo can't ever get third parties back, but it would require multiple consoles & tons of money to accomplish.

 

[10k]

That's not a unique user experience.

Exactly. It didn't have one. Shoulder buttons?

 

[Papacheeks]

Sad but probably very true.

The people thinking that 3rd parties are just itching to jump back on board with NX are in for a rough time. Nintendo consoles are bought for Nintendo games. Simple as that.

Unfortunately in this day and market, if all you can offer for $199 is first party only console, and you don't have many internal studios, then how can you expect people to be happy with the library.

Let alone investors, third party Indie are not going to have some kind of giant resurgence on Nintendo since steam, PSN and Xbox live are bigger digital markets.

Unless they lock down exclusive deals for these Indie games and they are stellar, and well marketed, I don't see it having a huge impact.

Nintendo needs to spend money, open up to exclusive western development, have a better PR/Market campaign for their console and software.

 

[wcw]

Nintendo will never see full third party support on a console in the current market. Let's say the Wii-U launched with specs similar to Xbone and PS4 and ports were easy that doesn't mean they would have seen third party support.

Nintendo should accept the fact that they won't get much third party support and realize that they need to step up their ability to provide content for consoles and handhelds. Aka they need to do it all and any third party that hops on is a bonus.

First they should buy Capcom, if your business is content then buying a company with both development talent and a wealth of IP's is a great investment.

Second increase their internal capacity to produce games. It's clear that Nintendo can't produce enough games for both a console and a handheld. Unless NX is a console handheld hybrid Nintendo can clearly not produce the amount of games needed to provide support for both a console and a handheld. They need to either purchase more studios or expand their internal game making ability.

As a video game company you are selling content. Nintendo's ability to make content isn't good enough to justify making their own hardware to run it on. If they want their current business model to survive they better start investing their money into improving their ability to pump out titles.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Did not help the gamecube. People can lay all the blame on Nintendo and they certainly have their bulk of the blame but 3rd parties have also made it pretty clear to most people who will buy Nintendo hardware that real effort is unlikely to be found so its best to avoid their effort in the first place.

Nintendo needs better 3rd party outreach and 3rd parties need better outreach.

The Gamecube had great AAA third party support relative to the N64 or Wii. It was also their cheapest launch console price. Ports were hampered by small discs, overpriced memory cards, a poor second analog, a poor dpad, lack of digital sound, and lack of Z trigger symmetry.

3rd parties are reaching like a mother f'er to get their games on as many platforms as possible, including PC which was often the odd man out for certain genres.

The Wii U had a relatively strong 3rd party launch lineup with many ports/cross platform versions of AAA games. But with no incentive for PS360 owners to upgrade due to identical graphics and worse online, why would anyone switch?

Nintendo has to understand that people who regularly play third party games are content with their current experience. They have to do better than Sony and MS to steal that marketshare and mindshare. If they can't or won't do that, there is no point in buying their hardware as a 3rd party box.

You should probably wait A couple years until the ps4 outsells the 3ds before making statements like these.

Won't this happen by next Christmas?