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[Askani]

Gates, a black man, perceived it was a motivating factor. Implicit in your question is that you think black people are too stupid to accurately perceive when they are being treated differently because of their race. Do you believe that?

In your post is the fact that the cop, a white man, was arresting him for a reason outside of what he reported in his report to his superiors and public record and said it wasn't a motivating factor. Implicit in your post is that he had another motivating factor and his report is false because he is white and the person he arrested is black. Do you believe that?

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Oh, it's fair to say that, is it? Based on what? That he's black? This is your defense?

:lol

I'm sorry, speaking of intelligence I was operating on the assumption that you had some. My mistake.

 

[YYZ]

What happened with this arrest? After the intial story, did it turn out to be justified or not? There's too many pages to go through so I'm wondering what you guys are arguing about.

 

[laserbeam]

What happened with this arrest? After the intial story, did it turn out to be justified or not? There's too many pages to go through so I'm wondering what you guys are arguing about.

The arrest was based on Disorderly conduct which based on all witnesses could have stuck but they let it slide.

The Thread title is as usual false and inflammatory.


But hey White Cop selected by his Black Superior to teach anti-racism classes because of his excellent service record is obviously a bigoted racist waiting to oppress blacks

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

This one's pretty damned steamy as well: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-boykin/white-men-cant-judge_b_244358.html

No matter how much progress we've made, black men still don't have the right to get upset and indignant, even in their own homes. Crotchety old white guys like Rush Limbaugh and Lou Dobbs can foam at the mouth on radio and television all day about immigrants and blacks, but a black male public figure can't complain too loudly. That would be ungrateful and undignified.

And it doesn't matter what your status if you're a black man. A black TV personality can't get upset with a white guy on CNN. A black White House veteran can't get upset with the NYPD on the subway. A black Harvard professor can't get upset with the Cambridge Police in his house. And apparently a black president can't get upset in his house either.

She won't say it, but Judge Sonia Sotomayor was right when she spoke about a wise Latina judge often reaching a better decision than a wise white man. Many white men still can't judge these situations fairly because they don't understand what it means to be black in America.

Whether you're a pundit, a professor or the president, if you're a black man you better know your place.

Amen.

 

[harSon]

I love how the Police Report cop's opinion has become the facts :lol

This is basically how I see the story:

- While the person calling in the story probably exaggerated just a bit, I agree with the way the situation was handled up until the actual encounter between the police officer and gates.
- Considering the report involved a Black male breaking into the neighbors home, I agree with the notion that it was reasonable for the cop to ask for some identification.
- After Gates showing him his Harvard ID, it's a bit redundant, but I can see reasons in which he'd want to see some official identification.
- I don't agree with the cop barging into Gate's home, he could have waited at the door until Gate's brought back the proper identification.
- I'm not sure if the cop gave Gate's his name and badge number, both reports dance around this tidbit, but assuming he didn't, he should have supplied the information even if he found the accusations of racism to be absurd.
- I don't necessarily think the cop is racist but I personally wouldn't be surprised if race (from the cops point of view har har) played a role in the encounter.
- While Gates had reason to be pissed, he handled the situation poorly.
- Considering that you've already inconvenienced the guy, I believe arresting him on "Disorderly Conduct" was complete bullshit.

 

[nyong]

The arrest was based on Disorderly conduct which based on all witnesses could have stuck but they let it slide.

Disorderly conduct charges are often dropped following an arrest rather than leading to a misdemeanor. That the charges were dropped is not unusual, nor does not imply that Gates was inappropriately detained. Which should be obvious as the officer refused to apologize and disciplinary action has never even been considered against him.

Cambridge Cop: Gates' Arrest by the Book

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5181869.shtml

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

intelligence had nothing to do with it. I like how you tried to frame that, though.

In fact, it's the "educated" and "successful" black men who are most likely to become indignant in racial profiling situations. Many younger black men I know suffer through random police stops on a regular basis and have grown accustomed to the procedure. But older, middle-class and upper-income blacks are often shocked when the police come for them, too. Yet in the eyes of the police, a black Harvard professor is just another potential suspect.

That about sums that up.

 

[Flo_Evans]

It's evidence, isn't it? The only way to discount it out of hand, however--as much of GAF has done--is to start from a presumption that black people are too stupid to be able to identify discriminatory conduct when it is directed at them.

No it's really not. "Feelings" are not evidence. There is zero actual evidence the officers responded to the situation any differently than they would of had Gates been an old white guy.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'll say it again, the idea of a "public disturbance" at 1PM in Harvard Square is fucking absurd. I can see the legality of the arrest is being discussed by those who know more, but even if it were completely legal there's always a distinction between being "right" as opposed to merely "correct."

It was a needless arrest.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

That about sums that up.

Did you even read the context of what I was replying to?

 

[empty vessel]

The arrest was based on Disorderly conduct which based on all witnesses could have stuck but they let it slide.

And now you're a lawyer? Seriously, that you are willing to say so much in a topic about race while knowing so precious little about the subject matter at hand speaks volumes about your motivation for posting here.

No jury would have convicted. In fact, no judge would have even let it go to trial.

 

[soul creator]

I do find it odd that a "racial profiling expert" is surprised that a black male could be a bit annoyed at being accused of breaking into your own home, and also angry at being arrested for it afterwards, even though there was already evidence that it was his own home.

I guess he forgot that part in his lesson plans :lol

 

[Mudkips]

Saw a bit of Gates talking about the arrest in front of a crowd at a ... T.G.I. Friday's ?
He was changing his story again, and loving the attention.

Maury would have had them both take a lie detector test and shit shit would have been solved ages ago.

And now you're a lawyer? Seriously, that you are willing to say so much in a topic about race while knowing so precious little about the subject matter at hand speaks volumes about your motivation for posting here.

No jury would have convicted. In fact, no judge would have even let it go to trial.

You've already claimed to be a lawyer. You're a terrible lawyer if you think "no judge would have even let it go to trial".

You're claim is absurd (claiming no judge would let it go to trial), and your underlying point (that these cases usually don't go to trial) is hokum.

You're implying that the judge would throw out the case as ridiculous, yet (since you're a lawyer) you know there are many outcomes that involve the case not going to an actual trial, while still resulting in punishment for the accused.

The most typical scenario for these types of cases, of course, involves the prosecution deciding that this shit just isn't worth their time. You're implying that judges consider the cases to be trivial or unimportant, and that sir, is bullshit.

 

[empty vessel]

Disorderly conduct charges are often dropped following an arrest rather than leading to a misdemeanor. That the charges were dropped is not unusual, nor does not imply that Gates was inappropriately detained. Which should be obvious as the officer refused to apologize and disciplinary action has never even been considered against him.

And yet another poster raises the fiction of meaningful police disciplinary action. This doesn't exist in real life.

 

[laserbeam]

I do find it odd that a "racial profiling expert" is surprised that a black male could be a bit annoyed at being accused of breaking into your own home, and also angry at being arrested for it afterwards, even though there was already evidence that it was his own home.

I guess he forgot that part in his lesson plans :lol

He was not arrested for breaking inot his own home. Retarded Thread titles as usual. He was asked to step down off the porch of the house and speak with the officer. He then started his racist rant and it went downhill from there.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

And now you're a lawyer? Seriously, that you are willing to say so much in a topic about race while knowing so precious little about the subject matter at hand speaks volumes about your motivation for posting here.

It really irritates me when people have no argument and resort to calling the opposing side racist to cover up their mental vacuity. You know jack shit about his motivations.

If I got a dime for every person on the internet who's assumed that I'm a "suburban white racist Republican" for my stance on affirmative action I'd have enough money to move out of Manhattan, bleach my skin, and have enough left over to pass off as a Republican.

 

[nyong]

And yet another poster raises the fiction of meaningful police disciplinary action. This doesn't exist in real life.

Hidden racist beliefs and a vast police conspiracy versus probably justified arrest of non-compliant angry individual who follows officer around verbally abusing him.

Hmm, which side to take...

 

[soul creator]

He was not arrested for breaking inot his own home. Retarded Thread titles as usual. He was asked to step down off the porch of the house and speak with the officer. He then started his racist rant and it went downhill from there.

my apologies, I phrased that incorrectly (didn't mean to say he was specifically arrested for it). That said, the larger point still applies.

 

[Zaptruder]

I do find it odd that a "racial profiling expert" is surprised that a black male could be a bit annoyed at being accused of breaking into your own home, and also angry at being arrested for it afterwards, even though there was already evidence that it was his own home.

I guess he forgot that part in his lesson plans :lol

Considering his racial profiling expertise, I'd have to say that the cop made an even bigger blunder.

I mean really... of all the things that escalated the situation from the neighbour reporting B&E, to gates been a dick, to Obama making a comment on the issue, the most direct cause was ARRESTING A BLACK HAVARD PROFESSOR IN HIS OWN HOME. Sure, any other series of events that happened could've helped to change the situation... but the crux of the entire issue is just the poor judgement displayed by the cop.

Given his racial profiling background, he should be able to empathize with the fact, even if he doesn't sympathize with it, that accusing (even if not directly) a black man in his home of breaking and entering, one can reasonably expect said man to become quite angry.

Moreover, been a professional doing his job, he should understand the ins and outs of the job well by now... especially for someone that can be considered a profiling expert; and one of the key things to understand is that people do not empathize well with cops; especially cops that they're been confronted by.

Sure, Gates should've realised that the cop was just doing his job. But the cop shouldn't have taken the verbal abuse personally.

But he did, he went on a powertrip; using the disorderly conduct provision of the law to turn around and harass the black man that was harassing him.

If he'd taken into account that any reasonable person, especially a black person would become stressed in such a situation, if he'd been able to exercise a bit of empathy, a bit of wisdom, by NOT arresting Gates, this issue wouldn't have escalated into a national issue.

It's also ridiculous to continue to assume an old man with a cane and a hoarse voice is a breaking and entering suspect once sighted; but if the cop followed him in while Gates retrieved his ID, setting Gates on edge, while also not providing ID himself, then it certainly speaks volumes about his poor judgement all around in this instance.

I mean... not only is the guy trained, he IS a trainer! What the hell is the guy training people on anyway?

 

[empty vessel]

Hidden racist beliefs and a vast police conspiracy versus probably justified arrest of non-compliant angry individual who follows officer around verbally abusing him.

Hmm, which side to take...

What conspiracy? Police do not have meaningful internal (or external) disciplinary systems. And under no circumstances was the arrest justified. Verbally abusing a police officer is not a crime. And one is perfectly entitled to follow a police officer around on one's own property, especially when the police officer has no consent to be there. Are you really this extreme an authoritarian?

 

[Mudkips]

And yet another poster raises the fiction of meaningful police disciplinary action. This doesn't exist in real life.

Ok, now I know you're either not a lawyer, or you're the worst lawyer ever.

Spend a night in jail for a minor offense, get the charges dropped, and then say your experience wasn't disciplinary or meaningful.

Verbally abusing a police officer is not a crime.

Yes, yes it is.
(It shouldn't be, but it is.)

Empty vessel indeed.

 

[harSon]

Hidden racist beliefs and a vast police conspiracy versus probably justified arrest of non-compliant angry individual who follows officer around verbally abusing him.

Hmm, which side to take...

You sure have a tendency to exaggerate things, I'd hardly consider (assuming this is the case) a few fellow officers having their friend's back to be a VAST POLICE CONSPIRACY.

I'd hardly consider you rewording a situation in such a way that it reflects your opinions on a subject to be anything other then a waste of time :lol Not exactly sure what you're trying to gain with this post.

 

[Zaptruder]

Ok, now I know you're either not a lawyer, or you're the worst lawyer ever.

Spend a night in jail for a minor offense, get the charges dropped, and then say your experience wasn't disciplinary or meaningful.



Yes, yes it is.
(It shouldn't be, but it is.)

Empty vessel indeed.

You parsed his sentence incorrectly.

He means that police do not recieve meaningful discplinary action for misconduct.

 

[laserbeam]

Well it goes beyond verbally abusing the Officer. He made very much implied threats against the Officers job etc. Mr. Gates is rather lucky he dealt with a cool headed individual. Many people would have laid him out on his ass.

 

[nyong]

You sure have a tendency to exaggerate things, I'd hardly consider (assuming this is the case) a few fellow officers having their friend's back to be a VAST POLICE CONSPIRACY.

I'd hardly consider you rewording a situation in such a way that it reflects your opinions on a subject to be anything other then a waste of time :lol Not exactly sure what you're trying to gain with this post.

Well, considering both the accusations of racism and the accusations of a police cover-up are completely baseless, while the evidence against Mr. Gates actually exists, take a wild guess which is really a waste of time arguing against.

 

[KHarvey16]

Well it goes beyond verbally abusing the Officer. He made very much implied threats against the Officers job etc. Mr. Gates is rather lucky he dealt with a cool headed individual. Many people would have laid him out on his ass.

:lol

 

[Zaptruder]

Well it goes beyond verbally abusing the Officer. He made very much implied threats against the Officers job etc. Mr. Gates is rather lucky he dealt with a cool headed individual. Many people would have laid him out on his ass.

You say that in such a way that makes me think that you would've done that if you were in the cop's position.

And if you did, you'd be utterly, utterly fucked.

 

[APF]

It's only funny because, it'll be good for Obama if Limbaugh becomes the #1 story next.

If Obama readdressed his comment because in his opinion he unintentionally added to a media circus distracting from his #1 priority, health care, how is Limbaugh becoming the "#1 story" good for Obama? Wouldn't that be in direct contradiction to Obama's stated goals in rolling back or clarifying his original statement? Or is it your opinion that Obama is lying?

 

[nyong]

And if you did, you'd be utterly, utterly fucked.

Nuh-uh. The police cover for their own.

If he slapped Mr. Gates around, killed his dog, and raped his wife, the cop's boys would have his back. Even the president would be helpless against the vast conspiracy of police silence.

 

[Zaptruder]

Nuh-uh. The police cover for their own.

If he slapped Mr. Gates around, killed his dog, and raped his wife, the cop's boys would have his back. Even the president would be helpless against the vast conspiracy of police silence.

I don't know what you're trying to do here other than been a complete retard.

And is the concept of implicit racism that foreign to you?

 

[Gaborn]

- I don't agree with the cop barging into Gate's home, he could have waited at the door until Gate's brought back the proper identification.

When the police are making an arrest of someone in a car, why do they require them to keep their hands in plain sight at all times? The reason is because once someone is a suspect in a crime you DON'T LET THEM OUT OF YOUR SIGHT. If you do so they could either 1. Escape 2. Get a weapon. In Gates case he would not have done so, but the police had no way of knowing that. It's standard procedure in that situation for a police officer to follow someone they have reason to be suspicious of. (when they have reason to believe they may be guilty of a crime)

 

[Core407]

So, how would YOU have handled the situation differently?

I would have asked him to show me where the family portraits are and if he was in 'em, I'd let him go. Really that difficult?

The problem with officers is that they're generally morons. They're taught to follow a protocol and never stray from it. They had no chance in a case like this, reasoning was required.

 

[Mudkips]

If Obama readdressed his comment because in his opinion he unintentionally added to a media circus distracting from his #1 priority, health care, how is Limbaugh becoming the "#1 story" good for Obama? Wouldn't that be in direct contradiction to Obama's stated goals in rolling back or clarifying his original statement? Or is it your opinion that Obama is lying?

Are you intentionally missing the point?

Limbaugh has been the democrats' MVP for a while now.
Limbaugh being the "#1 story" is good for the democrats because he's ridiculous and maked the republicans look bad by association.

 

[nyong]

And is the concept of implicit racism that foreign to you?

Ah yes, implicit racism. The only logical conclusion.

See my comments on the Salem Witch Trial from earlier. By what diabolical means should we determine if one is a racist, aside from the color of their skin being whitish?

 

[harSon]

Well, considering both the accusations of racism and the accusations of a police cover-up are completely baseless, while the evidence against Mr. Gates actually exists, take a wild guess which is really a waste of time arguing against.

Him being non-compliant insinuates that he was not cooperative with police, judging from police reports and his own accounting, he eventually proved himself to be the owner of the houseful he currently stood in. Verbally abusing a police officer, to my knowledge, is not a crime. Threatening a police officer certainly is, and I guess an officer can argue that he felt physically threatened through someone's words, but I doubt someone could justifiably arrest someone because they were called an "piece of shit" or something. Having said that, what does any of this have to do with the validity of his side of the story?

 

[nyong]

Him being non-compliant insinuates that he was not cooperative with police, judging from police reports and his own accounting, he eventually proved himself to be the owner of the houseful he currently stood in.

And after being told to calm down three times he continued to follow the officer around screaming at him like an insane person. What the cop did is the equivalent of giving Mr. Gates a timeout.

And yes, disorderly conduct is an actual charge. I did not make it up for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[Core407]

This isn't based on racism, it's just based on a mistake in protocol.

 

[empty vessel]

Nuh-uh. The police cover for their own.

If he slapped Mr. Gates around, killed his dog, and raped his wife, the cop's boys would have his back. Even the president would be helpless against the vast conspiracy of police silence.

That police cover for their own is common knowledge, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the simple fact that there are no effective and meaningful systems in place to discipline police officers or to hold police officers accountable. It's just a fact about police departments and the judiciary. So the fact that the officer did not receive any discipline for his willful violation of Gates's constitutional rights is hardly surprising to anybody who understands anything about how these institutions operate in real life.

And after being told to calm down three times he continued to follow the officer around screaming at him like an insane person. What the cop did is the equivalent of giving Mr. Gates a timeout.

And yes, disorderly conduct is an actual charge. I did not make it up for the purposes of this discussion.

Cops do not have the authority to give people "time outs" for lawful conduct. (And, yes, disorderly conduct is an actual charge. No, it did not even remotely occur here.) In fact, to the extent your characterization of the events is true, i.e., that the officer intended to give Gates a "time out" for following him around and screaming at him, then, ironically, it was the officer who committed a crime, a federal one at that: "Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both..."

 

[Gaborn]

I would have asked him to show me where the family portraits are and if he was in 'em, I'd let him go. Really that difficult?

The problem with officers is that they're generally morons. They're taught to follow a protocol and never stray from it. They had no chance in a case like this, reasoning was required.

Now, see, that's a smart answer.

 

[DrForester]

- I don't agree with the cop barging into Gate's home, he could have waited at the door until Gate's brought back the proper identification.

They're called to a house about a possible break in, you don't ask them to nicely go inside unaccompanied to get their ID. Cop had every right to go in given that they were called in for a possible break in, he had no way to know that the guy was the home owner, and it would be silly and dangerous to assume it was.

 

[harSon]

When the police are making an arrest of someone in a car, why do they require them to keep their hands in plain sight at all times? The reason is because once someone is a suspect in a crime you DON'T LET THEM OUT OF YOUR SIGHT. If you do so they could either 1. Escape 2. Get a weapon. In Gates case he would not have done so, but the police had no way of knowing that. It's standard procedure in that situation for a police officer to follow someone they have reason to be suspicious of. (when they have reason to believe they may be guilty of a crime)

Then instead of calling in backup (lol), he could have better used his time by radioing in a request for the name of the person who lived in this house hold. I mean, considering we're dealing with a master forge artist here, capable of recreating a Harvard ID, why should he believe that this state issued ID is any better?

 

[Core407]

Now, see, that's a smart answer.

They obviously weren't going to do something like that, they're grunts (not that theres anything wrong with that). They don't hire police officers to think, they're hired to follow out orders. Nothing more than robots really. Can't really have it any other way though.

 

[Gaborn]

Then instead of calling in backup (lol), he could have better used his time by radioing in a request for the name of the person who lived in this house hold. I mean, considering we're dealing with a master forge artist here, capable of recreating a Harvard ID, why should he believe that this state issued ID is any better?

His time? He shouldn't have any "time" his job is to follow the suspect until they prove ownership of the house or a right to be there. His Harvard ID isn't really in question here incidentally, it just doesn't necessarily have his address on it, I know my university ID didn't.

 

[laserbeam]

I just dont know how anyone can sit here and actually try and accuse the officers of being racist or racial profiling.

This was not a random stopping of a car or anything. A concerned Neighbor called 911 and said hey 2 blackmen are busting through the door of the house nextdoor send Police.

Police show up with the notification of men breaking into the house. A man is spotted on the PORCH of the house and told/ordered to come down to the officer and speak with him.

Man starts insulting and making accusations at the officer and proceeds inside of the house ignoring a Police Officers command to come speak with him and instead starts saying you dont know who your messing with etc and proceeds to try and call the Chief of Police and complain of a "racist cop"

 

[harSon]

His time? He shouldn't have any "time" his job is to follow the suspect until they prove ownership of the house or a right to be there. His Harvard ID isn't really in question here incidentally, it just doesn't necessarily have his address on it, I know my university ID didn't.

I'd imagine it'd be pretty quick for the officer to radio in "I have a man claiming to be the owner of a house, he has Harvard issued ID with his name and photograph on it but there's nothing here regarding an address. Can I get the name of the person who lives at xxxxx?"

 

[APF]

Are you intentionally missing the point?.

I am missing the point that Obama didn't want to add to what he felt was a distraction from what he's repeatedly stated is his number one priority, which is health care, so therefore Rush Limbaugh being the top news story somehow advances that goal...? I think it is not I who misses the point in all this.

 

[Core407]

I just dont know how anyone can sit here and actually try and accuse the officers of being racist or racial profiling.

This was not a random stopping of a car or anything. A concerned Neighbor called 911 and said hey 2 blackmen are busting through the door of the house nextdoor send Police.

Police show up with the notification of men breaking into the house. A man is spotted on the PORCH of the house and told/ordered to come down to the officer and speak with him.

Man starts insulting and making accusations at the officer and proceeds inside of the house ignoring a Police Officers command to come speak with him and instead starts saying you dont know who your messing with etc and proceeds to try and call the Chief of Police and complain of a "racist cop"

Well it's simple, the officers were white and the people being accused where black. I mean, the situation definitely doesn't look good for the cops - they did fuck up - but the whole thing looking like it was driven by racism is nothing more than situational. It looks a certain way but it's not necessarily the truth.

 

[Zaptruder]

Ah yes, implicit racism. The only logical conclusion.

See my comments on the Salem Witch Trial from earlier. By what diabolical means should we determine if one is a racist, aside from the color of their skin being whitish?

Implicit racism isn't the conclusion to anything in this context; it's simply a latent affect that people should be aware that exists, because its very nature is that people acting in an implicitly racist fashion don't even realise it. If the cop had been more aware of this point at the time of the arrest (which he should've been considering his background), then he might have made more effort to not exercise such poor (even if it is 'by the book') judgement.

The effects of racism will never die, even if we could hook up brain scanning equipment to everyone and have them all truly believe that they aren't racist; because a lot of the effects are in an implicit form. Unless people are aware of, and guard against it explicitly, then the status quo is perpetuated; and the status quo is that black people are routinely discriminated against, wittingly or not.

Moreover, guarding against the affects of implicit racism isn't some bullshit reverse racism (or as in the case of WickedAngel's attestations, plain old racism); it's recognition of the fact that our basic nature is to veer towards familiarity in all things (including skin color), and that function ends up creating a lot of the friction that we experience in different social groups, and much more so with a social group as visibly different as skin coloration.

 

[Core407]

Considering he's a frail 58 year old man in business gear, with a legitimate Harvard ID proving himself to be a fucking college professor, I don't think he's in any immediate danger.

You don't have to be young and in shape to fire a gun.