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'Has 'Guild Wars 2' become too complicated?' (Interview)

etiolate

Banned
Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be different.

In my view, they've screwed up in a few ways:

  • Gear treadmill: Added a new best level of gear about two months after release. At first it was three slots (out of a possible 13 armor slots) available in a dungeon, but it wasn't just another dungeon. The dungeon was gated not solely by skill like other dungeons, but by a stat not useful for anything but that dungeon (Agony Resistance). Remind you of World of Warcraft resistance fights?. The other new gear slots aren't so bad (uses a daily currency) but it's rather sad compared to the initial state of the game, where best-in-slot equipment was a lot easier to obtain. What was wrong with introducing the new dungeon
  • sPvP: Mediocre at best. It's nice that you can make a character with all skills/equipment unlocked (an improvement over GW1!) and go PvP right away, but that's about the only improvement. No other aspect of sPvP is near GW1 levels of quality. Has taken an obvious backseat to PvE, even though Arenanet has expressed esport aspirations.
  • "Play How You Want": Yes, to a certain extent, you can't play how you want and be as effective as everyone else in any game, but there is a huge disparity between damage over time vs direct damage specs. If two players in a party have the same condition (damage over time) spec then that party is a lot more gimped because of the way conditions of the same type are capped at 25. Two direct-damage players do not suffer in the same way. It's definitely a little better than the way everyone "Build Wars"ed PvE encounters in GW1.

The last two can be fixed. The first can't be since they've already committed to the gear treadmill.

They fix the first issue by making Asceded gear a lot easier to get or normalizing the stats outside of fractals. I feel they can still step back from how far they've gone with it. Even though I've spend laurels and used 10 gold to craft Ascended peices, I would have o hard feelings if they 'fixed' the Ascended gear issue through normalization or easier access. I would just be happy for the improvement it would mean for the game in the long run.

I think they are working on a fix to the condition cap. They could actually do some cool things with that situation. Someone suggested that hitting cap would create a secondary effect. Though I don't know how that helps with conditions that only increase in length.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Doing it wrong? That seemed to be the common way to defeat that encounter when I was playing. It completely broke it, though, and made it stupidly easy.

I don't know what high level fractal is, but the fact that no class really seemed to be particularly better at any one thing than any other class led me to believe that there were no roles in the game. Nothing that any class excelled at more than any other.

Regardless of all that, though, something about the combat just felt off to me. Maybe it was the animations or sound effects of when blow connected? I don't know, but I just felt disconnected from every encounter.

Well what you were supposed to do is trap one of the two bosses in between the doors on the north side. There's switches on the ground there where you're supposed to put the boulders to activate. It makes the fight fairly easy. Though they did a terrible job of indicating this method to players since the doors are on the opposite side of where players would normally enter the room I think.

Fractals are the newish dungeons that get harder each time you advanced a rank in them. The higher levelled fractals are very difficult and require good coordination between players to beat. If you're playing low levelled stuff, then yeah It doesn't matter so much what role you play in a fight, but I don't think that's the case in the harder stuff. I find that what people do in the harder fights changes from moment to moment instead of being predefined before the fight even begins. For instance, if players are down, then good kiting classes should kite, while good rezzing classes should do the rezzing. Or if bosses are spamming ranged, then classes with reflect or range blocking walls should do their job.

And if you don't enjoy the combat, then that's cool too. It's not for everyone.
 

valeo

Member
Is everyone completely burned out on MMO's that promise the world yet? I know I am. Have gone back to appreciating a good single player experience.
 

Ashodin

Member
Well, it's the only MMO that kept me interested in playing for more than 2 months since Dark Age of Camelot, and it also seems to have better customer retention and sales than anything else post-WoW. It also, for better or worse, really did mix up the traditional MMO mechanics in several significant ways. So, despite the issues, it pretty much is the second coming of MMOs.

Also the GAF guild is probably the largest longest living GAF guild for any MMO on here. We have over 300 members and 50 to 100 active at any given time.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Ill never buy into that hype machine again. It really doesnt feel like an MMO but I guess that should be expected with no subscription plan. I only played up to 40+ but the world feels empty to me (on the biggest server) and I do not like the 'one character does everything' feeling. I love being healers in games, so please, give me specific roles so everyone knows what they need to do. Also, how come my character doesnt have his weapon at the login screen? Small stuff like that bothers me. I could go on and on and on about the weapon systems and all that but I dont want this to turn into a GW2 sucks thread.
 

Levyne

Banned
Once in Twilight Arbor, 3 of the party went dead and the other down, I was the last one still on my feet. We were fighting a giant spider with lots of aoe that downs even the toughest of armor. Yes, you may want to strafe during the fight...

So with 3 dead, 1 down, and me, I was not sure how we would succeed. Instead of running to my imminent death by trying to revive the downed player and being completely unprotected, I, as a ranger, decided to allow me and my (somewhat) tanky drake pet kite the boss around while the "downed" player rezed himself and the other 3. Thankfully, I was Traited fully into beastmastery, giving my pet some immenent regen and made the cooldowns on pet switchoffs shorter and more beneficial. Equiping a short bow gave me an extra evasive move to avoid aoe with in the case that I ran out of endurance for dodge rolls. The weapon has a purity sigil to remove the bosses poison condition on critical. I had a skill that gave me a boon to my crit chance to help this along. Playing defensively and letting my melee pets fight at the boss while I avoided the aoe and prioritized staying alive, I had to survive the boss on my own for several minutes while the downed player slowly revived himself without help and brought up the rest of the team.

I'm not 100% sure the point of the story is, but so many little things came together that wouldn't have been possible in GW1.
 

Won

Member
Ill never buy into that hype machine again. It really doesnt feel like an MMO but I guess that should be expected with no subscription plan. I only played up to 40+ but the world feels empty to me (on the biggest server) and I do not like the 'one character does everything' feeling. I love being healers in games, so please, give me specific roles so everyone knows what they need to do. Also, how come my character doesnt have his weapon at the login screen? Small stuff like that bothers me. I could go on and on and on about the weapon systems and all that but I dont want this to turn into a GW2 sucks thread.

No, you are gonna deal damage. And you will like it!
 
A bit off topic, but any good breakdowns of what has happened in the last six months? I petered out when Fractals came around (I think that was right after Halloween event) and am wondering what things are like now.

Anything big as far as gameplay and classes? I liked the game but didn't make it anywhere near max level and tinkered with most all of the classes. I found that my one sticking point was that once you unlocked all of your weapon abilities the combat got rather rote.
 

etiolate

Banned
I only did the lower level dungeons, so maybe endgame ones are exponentially better? Low level dungeons were a clusterfuck of aggro swapping and hoping somebody didn't blow their heal on something stupid. Completely turned me off from doing any serious PvE. The movement and roll don't really impress me at all, especially seeing as the game is auto-target. TERA's combat is so much better that they're not even remotely comparable. GW2 definitely seems like a game that is made for PvPers.

There's a vast difference in dungeon experience between a nubile group in their first dungeons and an experienced group doing the same dungeon.

Just as a teaching moment:

I always hear questions about aggro in the game. I admit that I don't fully understand aggro, but I believe it has some general rules about proximity and armor. Different mobs also have quirks to their aggro. There isn't that strong of a universal aggro mechanic in the game. However, what I would like people to know is that worrying about aggro in GW2 is not really the correct approach.

A personal play example would be the previously mentioned Ascalon Catacombs. Before the final boss fight, there is a sequence where you fight waves of ghosts. Sometimes, at least before they retooled the dungeon, you would get extra Necromancers or Rangers in your mob spawn. This became problematic because they spread conditions and negative AoEs like nuts. One time this happened to one of our groups, and I was sitting in the back watching the Necro/Ranger death squad comes towards us. A Guardian and Thief ran up to try to pull some from the pack, but they ended up aggroing all of them.

Were we fucked because of crazy aggro mechanics? Not really. Understanding the combat mechanics, and playing an Engineer at the time, I knew I could essentially "tank" those mobs without having aggro on them, and by "tank"ing them, I'd support my mates and mitigate their damage. How? I had pistol/shield equipped as my weapons. I had Tool Wrench in my utilities, along with Elixir Gun. I run up towards my fleeing teammates, and past them towards the Necro and Rangers. I pop Tool kit and use the Gear Block skill. The key was for me to be directly between my group and the enemies. I knew projectiles follow a path and by standing between the aggroed mobs and the groupmates targeted, I intercepted three or four different projectiles with a 3 second block. I then quickly equip Elixir Gun and my traits pops an area heal. I then go back to pistol shield and use the 5 skill which also blocks ranged attacks. (The tooltip does not say this, its just something you learn.) That gives me another couple of seconds while the Super Elixir drop heals and also cleanses conditions on team from people shooting through the field at the Necro and Ranger. I still probably don't have aggro on the mobs, but I just absorbed their damage and healed without touching the dodge key or heal skill.

I then switch to magnet skill and yank a targeted necro away from the pack, pulling its aggro and kiting behind a pillar so we can group up on it.

That's why I love the combat.
 
Once in Twilight Arbor, 3 of the party went dead and the other down, I was the last one still on my feet. We were fighting a giant spider with lots of aoe that downs even the toughest of armor. Yes, you may want to strafe during the fight...

So with 3 dead, 1 down, and me, I was not sure how we would succeed. Instead of running to my imminent death by trying to revive the downed player and being completely unprotected, I, as a ranger, decided to allow me and my (somewhat) tanky drake pet kite the boss around while the "downed" player rezed himself and the other 3. Thankfully, I was Traited fully into beastmastery, giving my pet some immenent regen and made the cooldowns on pet switchoffs shorter and more beneficial. Equiping a short bow gave me an extra evasive move to avoid aoe with in the case that I ran out of endurance for dodge rolls. The weapon has a purity sigil to remove the bosses poison condition on critical. I had a skill that gave me a boon to my crit chance to help this along. Playing defensively and letting my melee pets fight at the boss while I avoided the aoe and prioritized staying alive, I had to survive the boss on my own for several minutes while the downed player slowly revived himself without help and brought up the rest of the team.

I'm not 100% sure the point of the story is, but so many little things came together that wouldn't have been possible in GW1.

I had a similar experience in my second AC run ever. I forget the name of the boss but it's the one in story mode that stands on a pillar in the middle of the room and summons wolf (I think) adds. The entire rest of my party died with him at about 30% health but my build is set up to kite and dodge really well so I was able to kite him long enough for them to res at the wp, repair and run back to finish him off. Considering this was within the first month of release it was a huge benefit as a lot of AC runs fell apart when people wiped.
 
Well, it's the only MMO that kept me interested in playing for more than 2 months since Dark Age of Camelot, and it also seems to have better customer retention and sales than anything else post-WoW. It also, for better or worse, really did mix up the traditional MMO mechanics in several significant ways. So, despite the issues, it pretty much is the second coming of MMOs.

Agreed. It literally is the second coming of MMOs for me, as in, it's the most revolutionary MMO since WoW, and the one I've stuck with after it. In fact GW2 was everything I expected and more.

Durante, didn't even know you played. Are you in GAFGuild?

Game kept me interested enough to keep playing through most of the levels. I quit though. pvp/wvw is a freaking mess.

I've resigned myself to thinking I'll never get anything like DAOC ever again.

You will never get anything like DAOC, because the you that existed when you played DAOC doesn't exist anymore; your standards and sensibilities have changed. Even if a perfect DAOC2, with everything you loved in DAOC and more, came about, you still wouldn't like it as much, because you've outgrown it. The proof? You're not playing DAOC now.

You're holding every game to a literally unattainable standard that only exists as a golden memory, and in doing so, will never be able to enjoy any MMO, let alone enjoy them as much as you did DAOC.

I'm not criticising you for this, by the way; I'm commiserating. I've done (and still do) this plenty of times myself. :/
 

Cels

Member
They fix the first issue by making Asceded gear a lot easier to get or normalizing the stats outside of fractals. I feel they can still step back from how far they've gone with it. Even though I've spend laurels and used 10 gold to craft Ascended peices, I would have o hard feelings if they 'fixed' the Ascended gear issue through normalization or easier access. I would just be happy for the improvement it would mean for the game in the long run.

Yes, if they made Ascended gear attainable through the methods that any other gear in the game is attainable it wouldn't be much of a treadmill and people would be happier.

Direct Drop
Chests
Karma
Crafting
Dungeons (not just one dungeon - every dungeon)
Buyable/Sellable on Trading Post
Mystic Forge (not just through specific recipes but through blind luck like any other gear - like 4 Exotics for a chance at 1 Ascended)

Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but yeah, there are many many ways to attain gear in this game.
 
I missed the trinity talk from the last page, but wanted to put this out there:


I feel like with Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet has given people the idea that the holy trinity is the only way to do PvE in an MMO. A lot of people seem to hate the dungeons in GW2, and blame it on the lack of trinity instead of the design/balancing in GW2.

Without a tank, you're forced to rely on movement and dodge-rolls to avoid attacks. The problem is that the tougher enemies often have attacks that will 2-3 shot a player, and they are cast quickly, with little warning of what is coming. The less-exaggerated art style compared to other MMOs means that enemies are smaller and have more subtle details. This along with the constant barrage of overdone spell effects hitting them, means it can be pretty difficult to tell when a big attack is coming.

I'm not saying the dungeons are impossible, just that I feel that these little things add up to give it a steep learning curve, with little to no difficulty ramp-up. Boss fights work in single player 3rd person action games, so why is it so difficult to do the same with with 5 players?
 

blackflag

Member
Agreed. It literally is the second coming of MMOs for me, as in, it's the most revolutionary MMO since WoW, and the one I've stuck with after it. In fact GW2 was everything I expected and more.

Durante, didn't even know you played. Are you in GAFGuild?



You will never get anything like DAOC, because the you that existed when you played DAOC doesn't exist anymore; your standards and sensibilities have changed. Even if a perfect DAOC2, with everything you loved in DAOC and more, came about, you still wouldn't like it as much, because you've outgrown it. The proof? You're not playing DAOC now.

You're holding every game to a literally unattainable standard that only exists as a golden memory, and in doing so, will never be able to enjoy any MMO, let alone enjoy them as much as you did DAOC.

I'm not criticising you for this, by the way; I'm commiserating. I've done (and still do) this plenty of times myself. :/

TOA is why I don't play DAOC. I played many years after most quit. I know in most games cases it is nostalgia but DAOC mostly got RVR and pvp right. no one else has since then.
 

BrettWeir

Member
TOA is why I don't play DAOC. I played many years after most quit. I know in most games cases it is nostalgia but DAOC mostly got RVR and pvp right. no one else has since then.

Exactly.

It's not our standards that have changed, it's the MMO industry. WoW dumbed MMO's down beyond belief, and every MMO since has tried to mimic that to appeal to a broader audience. I would imagine the original EQ crowd would say the same thing.

DAoC had god awful PvE, but nailed RvR. If they could somehow nail down a viable PvE game that appeals to the masses, along with RvR from DAoC, (depth included) it would be an amazing game. I mean hell......I spent hours and hours a month coming up with new spellcrafting templates.

Anyhow, I'm off topic, but yeah...GW2 was a beacon of hope for a LOT of DAoC players and fell flat. It was fine for a couple months, but after being completely ignored, HUGE guilds and vast amounts of players abandoned the game.
 

Fishious

Member
I've enjoyed most of the content added to GW2 since launch, but I still feel the game could do a better job of communicating changes. Unfortunately I recognize that's not an easy thing to do. Not everyone reads patch notes and even fewer will go back to read older ones if they took a month or two off. As an example, recently one of my friends (who has played regularly since release) bemoaned the fact that his mystic coins kept disappearing. Turns out he didn't know a few months back they added a slot in the collectables tab for them and each time he was hitting that deposit collectibles button they were going straight to the bank.

You could say that the onus is on each individual to know these things or check a wiki, but the fact is most people won't and I don't think that's necessarily wrong of them. GW2 could certainly use some better tutorial content (note that this should always be optional). I think a short in game mail with some of the big changes (like chests from meta events improving and being 1/day per character) would keep more people in the loop, but that's more of a bandaid. And on the subject of currencies, at the very least there needs to be a place in the collectables tab for them or better yet give them their own UI element somewhere.

Regarding the dungeon discussion that seems to have emerged, I find it startling the difference between a PUG's skill and the skill of my group of friends. If people's experience is coming from PUGs then it's no wonder some people think they're a broken mess. In the event that my friends and I wipe in a dungeon we stop, talk about our tactical options, and change out weapon sets, utility skills, and traits to better fit the encounter. In some cases I'm tank by proxy, using my bear to soak hits and crippling/chilling/stunning enemies if they try to aggro someone else and ultimately trying to keep the bear between the enemies and my allies. Other times I'm full on control using all my traps to impede the enemy. Sometimes I'm aoe dps via conditions and rarely even conditional removal. So instead of it being a trinity situation where I go into a dungeon knowing my role, the role I take is dependent on the encounter, party makeup, and our playstyles. In my opinion it's much more fluid than a trinity system. Of course the PUG strategy is often to keep trying the same thing until it works and if it doesn't, rage quit. I generally prefer my strategy, but getting randoms to go with it can be difficult.

Note: I still haven't played through every dungeon and every path. Some probably were/are broken to a degree which could be part of the problem. I am also not saying if you had problems with dungeons l2p. I am saying there is a layer of tactics that when utilized well make the game more enjoyable, and that the complaint that GW2 dungeons are broken because of the lack of "roles" isn't entirely accurate.
 

RoKKeR

Member
Huh, haven't played GW2 since launch month. I was thinking about getting back into it soon, though I've never been a huge MMO guy.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
I want to get some top tier armor at this point. I stopped when it was just taking a ridiculous amount of time to get tier armor from any dungeon (pretty much where I stop in every MMO).

How hard is it to get the new top tier armor if you don't do the dungeon? How does the laurel vendor work?
 

Fishious

Member
I want to get some top tier armor at this point. I stopped when it was just taking a ridiculous amount of time to get tier armor from any dungeon (pretty much where I stop in every MMO).

How hard is it to get the new top tier armor if you don't do the dungeon? How does the laurel vendor work?

Top tier armor is still technically exotic level. You only need to do dungeons if you want the skins or a specific stat combination that's only found on dungeon armor. Exotics can be found randomly from event chests, crafting, purchased with karma, etc. The new ascended rarity with slightly better stats is, as of now, only for rings, accessories, back pieces, and amulets. Some of these can be obtained with laurels. Laurels are an account wide currency that you receive for doing daily and monthly achievements. Get enough and turn them in to a laurel vendor for ascended items or other stuff. Supposedly they're going to give out laurels for having completed certain achievements and they will be rewarded retroactively if you've already done them, but no eta on that.

Edit: Don't know when you stopped playing, but dailies and monthlies now also give jugs of karma. That makes getting exotic armor from Orr easier.
 

Arksy

Member
I missed the trinity talk from the last page, but wanted to put this out there:


I feel like with Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet has given people the idea that the holy trinity is the only way to do PvE in an MMO. A lot of people seem to hate the dungeons in GW2, and blame it on the lack of trinity instead of the design/balancing in GW2.

Without a tank, you're forced to rely on movement and dodge-rolls to avoid attacks. The problem is that the tougher enemies often have attacks that will 2-3 shot a player, and they are cast quickly, with little warning of what is coming. The less-exaggerated art style compared to other MMOs means that enemies are smaller and have more subtle details. This along with the constant barrage of overdone spell effects hitting them, means it can be pretty difficult to tell when a big attack is coming.

I'm not saying the dungeons are impossible, just that I feel that these little things add up to give it a steep learning curve, with little to no difficulty ramp-up. Boss fights work in single player 3rd person action games, so why is it so difficult to do the same with with 5 players?

No I completely disagree. The dungeon design and balance on the overall is decent given what they have to work with. The only problem is...what they have to work with. The lack of holy trinity means people don't have any roles. Why is this bad? Because you come up to an encounter and people just rush at it and start attacking. There might be a process to it but it's always ham-fisted and it never quite works as well as a real dungeon in other MMOs.

Most encounters follow this basic structure, encounter starts and everyone zergs the mob, it's usually one mob because with no tank to hold aggro, multiple elite mobs are almost impossible. Everyone runs around like their head's chopped off trying to do DPS, one guy gets hit and goes down, everyone keeps running around like a bug that's just been sprayed trying to distract the guy with unknown aggro mechanics until someone is able to rez the guy. Rinse. Repeat.

GW2 easily has the worst dungeons I've ever seen. I love the game but they really need to fix the fact that it's basically Zerg Wars 2 at the moment.

You win dungeons by zerging everything down, for the reasons I stated above.

You win WvW by zerging, they're fixing the culling but the AoE target cap remains, meaning that you'll see a zerg coming now, but won't be able to do anything about it.

You win Guild Missions and Dynamic Events by zerging as well. The more people you can throw at something the easier it becomes.
 

etiolate

Banned
I missed the trinity talk from the last page, but wanted to put this out there:


I feel like with Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet has given people the idea that the holy trinity is the only way to do PvE in an MMO. A lot of people seem to hate the dungeons in GW2, and blame it on the lack of trinity instead of the design/balancing in GW2.

Without a tank, you're forced to rely on movement and dodge-rolls to avoid attacks. The problem is that the tougher enemies often have attacks that will 2-3 shot a player, and they are cast quickly, with little warning of what is coming. The less-exaggerated art style compared to other MMOs means that enemies are smaller and have more subtle details. This along with the constant barrage of overdone spell effects hitting them, means it can be pretty difficult to tell when a big attack is coming.

I'm not saying the dungeons are impossible, just that I feel that these little things add up to give it a steep learning curve, with little to no difficulty ramp-up. Boss fights work in single player 3rd person action games, so why is it so difficult to do the same with with 5 players?

I think people have trouble for all the reasons you mention. The language of the battle can be difficult to sparse, and while you may have seen all those spell effects go off before, they matter a lot more now that you're in a dungeon. Some of the tells are pretty small. I still miss people weapon switching in PVP, but that is one of hte major tells you have to learn in pvp to get better. They are not easy tells on every mob unless they're giant sized smashes.

The other reason is that people just don't think of 3rd person action games. They don't even think of Zelda. Many filter the game through other MMO experiences and that adds static and confusion to the battle.
 

Forkball

Member
I don't see how adding new content is a bad thing. They have done a lot of good things to keep player interest, and all for FREE. You could argue multiple currencies is confusing, but it gives more options to players to play how they want and focus on what they want as opposed to grinding for gold. You could say "well you're just grinding for something else" which is true, but at least you can pick what you grind.

I play it fairly sporadically now, but I know they are going to keep adding cool stuff so I look forward to jumping into it again for a lengthy time. I do think the end game content is pretty lacking and there are several obvious fixes that are holding back WvW.
 

Izayoi

Banned
Boss fights work in single player 3rd person action games, so why is it so difficult to do the same with with 5 players?
It's not. See the hardest fight in TERA currently, Manaya's Core. Or the previous hardest, Kelsaik's Nest.

Well designed bosses with interesting mechanics that focus on your skill individually, as well as your ability to coordinate with a group. GW2 seems unsure on what it wants players to do, which leads to very confusing encounters that you can beat, but you're not really sure why or how you beat it. You walk away without really learning anything about the fights, nor do you feel like you've improved at your class (at least in my case, I played a Warrior and it was pretty straightforward - I never felt that I was challenged anymore than I was in overworld solo encounters, and that's a problem).
 

big_erk

Member
I love the combat personally. Fast paced, reactive, and not based on cycling cooldowns more efficiently than the other guy.

And what I find most interesting about this whole "there's too many currencies so it's complicated" complaint is that it's still nowhere near the amount of currency in WoW and no one complains about WoW's currency abundance. WoW also lacks a tutorial to help players understand the currencies. People learn it the same way in both games. Reading forums, guides, and asking other players. I don't see how that's a bad thing either.

Complaining about grind for Ascended, Legendary, or Unique gear is equally odd. They don't provide a nominal stat boost and they aren't required for the vast majority of the content.. so what does it matter? With the exception of very high level Fractals (which are NOT endgame content), every encounter is designed to be able to be completed with a set of Rare gear, not even Exotic! What players need to do to successfully complete the content is adapt to the gameplay and mechanics of enemies and boss encounters. What I really love is that I can step away from the game for a few months, come back, and I don't have to grind new dungeons 30 times to get new gear to participate in the current content like many, many other MMO's do.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone has different tastes and if someone doesn't like it, then they don't like it. But arbitrarily pointing out things as "wrong" when they work just fine seems extreme.

I agree with your comments. What is everyones problem with the combat. I think it is fast paced, and interesting. I would like a few more weapon skills to choose from but that's not a huge problem.

Is the game too complicated, no. The game is layered. You don't have to tackle all of the systems at once. I soloed about 80 hours before I joined any parties and played another 20 before I joined a guild. The community is very open and friendly and you can get answers to most questions easily.

The fact that the world is always changing, with new content and areas being added makes this a game I plan to be playing for a long time.
 

Izayoi

Banned
What is everyones problem with the combat. I think it is fast paced, and interesting.
It's fast-paced, but I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting". I played two classes, Elementalist and Warrior, and both were very straightforward (Warrior especially). Boring rotations, samey weapon skills (more offensive on the Warrior than the Elementalist), and solo gameplay that was pretty uneventful. I did play a little of the Guardian and liked it a lot more than either of my previous two characters, but by that point I had already hit 80 with one character and was losing interest in the game pretty quickly.

The idea of weapons being tied to a limited skill-set is an interesting idea, but GW2 implements it poorly. I think TSW handled it a lot better, letting you equip any two weapons in the game to make some really interesting builds for every type of situation (as well as skills in weapon trees that could be used with ANY weapon) - granted, this is something that GW2 can't really do because of the classic (rigid) class-based character system, but ultimately it holds the classes back.

I'm not really sure how it could be fixed, to be honest, but right now some of the classes are pretty boring. It's a shame, they seem like they've got a lot of potential.
 

KiteGr

Member
Jewelcrafting is now officially useless as now everyone aims for the Ascended stuff... The ascended stuff are very easy to get, and have nothing to do with crafting. If you can get your ascended gear with casual play on any level for a month, then what's the point of even bothering with the exotic stuff!
 

Xiaoki

Member
It's not. See the hardest fight in TERA currently, Manaya's Core. Or the previous hardest, Kelsaik's Nest.

Well designed bosses with interesting mechanics that focus on your skill individually, as well as your ability to coordinate with a group. GW2 seems unsure on what it wants players to do, which leads to very confusing encounters that you can beat, but you're not really sure why or how you beat it. You walk away without really learning anything about the fights, nor do you feel like you've improved at your class (at least in my case, I played a Warrior and it was pretty straightforward - I never felt that I was challenged anymore than I was in overworld solo encounters, and that's a problem).

The reason why GW2s combat feels confusing and unfocused compared to Tera is because Tera has a real time action combat system whereas Guild Wars 2 has mostly a EQ/WoW style turn based combat system with elements of real time action.

An MMO with a real time action combat system can work without the holy trinity but not one that has its roots in a turn based combat system.

If Im being attacked by a mob that can kill me in 2 to 3 hits I do NOT want to dodge out of the way of his attacks and be 20 yards away from the point of impact and yet still get hit.
 
I accumulated 500 hours of play time from launch until the end of November. I think there are two main reasons I quit playing.

1. WvW is really bad. I never enjoyed it. It truly is a zerg vs zerg and though you can take camps as a small group, you cannot hold them and it ends up being futile.

2. I had 100% map completion as part of my quest to get a legendary weapon. So I did, literally, everything in the game. There was nothing else to see. So I didn't want to make an alt and do all the same content again.

I enjoyed the combat and it works well for pvp, but the pvp game type is shit. It's really amazing they only have that one game type and it's not arena. I enjoyed most of my 500 hours of play. I'd certainly check it out again if they added arena pvp.
 
Possibly my biggest disappointment of 2012. I think Shadowbane held my interest longer.

Not a bad game as far as I could tell, it just failed to capture my interest on virtually any level. I didn't go for the refund, maybe I should come back and see what I think of it now.
 

cdkee

Banned
I think the game is a lot of fun. I stopped playing once I got back to university due to time constaints but would love to get back into it for sure. I love the sPvP.
 

Trey

Member
The reason why GW2s combat feels confusing and unfocused compared to Tera is because Tera has a real time action combat system whereas Guild Wars 2 has mostly a EQ/WoW style turn based combat system with elements of real time action.

An MMO with a real time action combat system can work without the holy trinity but not one that has its roots in a turn based combat system.

If Im being attacked by a mob that can kill me in 2 to 3 hits I do NOT want to dodge out of the way of his attacks and be 20 yards away from the point of impact and yet still get hit.

I would argue that GW2 is closer to an action game than Tera. The active dodge, plethora of movement skills, spacing properties, and the ability to use skills while moving all contribute to a very player driven experience.
 

Forkball

Member
I would argue that GW2 is closer to an action game than Tera. The active dodge, plethora of movement skills, spacing properties, and the ability to use skills while moving all contribute to a very player driven experience.

GW2 is definitely active, but it still has some tab-targetting elements when it comes to attacking and hit boxes. In TERA it is very clear if you dodged or didn't dodge an attack, but in GW2 there are times where you clearly dodge but are still hit anyways.

Give me an MMO with Dark Souls' combat please.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
GW2 is definitely active, but it still has some tab-targetting elements when it comes to attacking and hit boxes. In TERA it is very clear if you dodged or didn't dodge an attack, but in GW2 there are times where you clearly dodge but are still hit anyways.

Give me an MMO with Dark Souls' combat please.

Actually tera locks you into animations which isn't particularily actiony. Probably the most annoying part of that games combat. Gw2 at least has cancels.


Also dark souls pc combat isn't all that great, the core combat is fine but there's no real need for you to lock onto targets like that on pc. Vindictus actually does a better job of that.
 
Guild Wars 2 feels more like a traditional tab target MMO for the most part, which I found sort of disappointing. It does autotarget what's in front of you and allow you to use attacks with no target, which gives it more of the action feel. I play with "promote skill target to lock target" turned off, which helps to prevent accidentally attacking something you meant to switch off of. The auto targetting is lacking though, so I still end up attacking the wrong target a lot, especially with ranged attacks. (pistol autoattack + no lock target = you pull things you didn't mean to)

Tera has great combat, but there's a huge priority placed on animation. You get stuck in really long animations every time you attack. You can string combos together (great idea btw) to shorten them, but they're still too long. It's much more noticeable in PvP where both players are actively trying to dodge attacks. A friend and I tried to duel recently and the duel timer ran out before one of us could kill the other. We just weren't landing any attacks. (warrior vs slayer)

Neverwinter has a setup similar to Tera, but feels like quicker attacks an shorter animations. It could just be that I was playing a faster class, the Trickster Thief. The others could be slower. It'll be more obvious if it works better than Tera when they implement PvP. The game does have tank and healer roles though. Also the only class with a dodge roll is the Thief. The tank class gets a block, not sure what the others get. The combat sounds and animations have a heavy impact to them, which makes it feel good though. (Here's a video I took during the last beta weekend, for any who want to see the combat.)

Darkfall is pure action based. No autotargetting, no softlocks, no movement restrictions during attack animations. The combat feels loose and sloppy though, with little feedback for when your attacks land. Your attacks are very generic swings too, with animations that leave a lot to be desired.




I like that more MMOs are going the action route, but I don't think any have really gotten it right yet. (none that I've played, at least)
 
GW2 is by far closer to traditional MMO combat than TERA.


"Actually tera locks you into animations which isn't particularily actiony."

If anything, TERA locking you into animations for attacks makes it more similar to third person action games which tend to do the same or have limitations on when you can cancel attacks.
 

big_erk

Member
It's fast-paced, but I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting". I played two classes, Elementalist and Warrior, and both were very straightforward (Warrior especially). Boring rotations, samey weapon skills (more offensive on the Warrior than the Elementalist), and solo gameplay that was pretty uneventful. I did play a little of the Guardian and liked it a lot more than either of my previous two characters, but by that point I had already hit 80 with one character and was losing interest in the game pretty quickly.

The idea of weapons being tied to a limited skill-set is an interesting idea, but GW2 implements it poorly. I think TSW handled it a lot better, letting you equip any two weapons in the game to make some really interesting builds for every type of situation (as well as skills in weapon trees that could be used with ANY weapon) - granted, this is something that GW2 can't really do because of the classic (rigid) class-based character system, but ultimately it holds the classes back.

I'm not really sure how it could be fixed, to be honest, but right now some of the classes are pretty boring. It's a shame, they seem like they've got a lot of potential.

Not sure about elementalist, but I've played warrior and ranger, and ranger is by far my favorite. I started out trying all of the weapon types until I found a combo that was interesting to me. My ranger uses a longbow for one set and an axe/torch combo for the other. It makes for some interesting mechanics switching between the two. Maybe I'm in the minority but I switch between weapon sets frequently and it gives the combat a more dynamic feel.
 

Izayoi

Banned
I would argue that GW2 is closer to an action game than Tera. The active dodge, plethora of movement skills, spacing properties, and the ability to use skills while moving all contribute to a very player driven experience.
Uh...

Ice skates != closer to an action game. You're confusing action game with traditional MMO. WoW lets you skate around and use all of your abilities, is it an "action game?" In fact, aside from the roll, GW2 combat is not all that dissimilar from WoW.

Every class in TERA has active avoidance abilities, be it a dodge, backstep, block, or something else. Some classes have abilities you can use while moving, but they have animation lock, as they should for a game that focuses on your skill as a player.

Have you ever played a third person action game before? Monster Hunter, Phantasy Star Online, Dark Souls, DMC, Bayonetta... All of these games have animation lock. It's meant to punish you for mashing buttons without first thinking about your actions. It's exactly the opposite of games that let the player spam abilities with no thought as to where the ability will place them in relation to the enemy, or how it might leave them open to attack.

Actually tera locks you into animations which isn't particularily actiony. Probably the most annoying part of that games combat. Gw2 at least has cancels.
TERA has cancels as well, but they require precise timing and solid knowledge of the class and its skills. Some skills can't be cancelled (usually high-risk, high-reward abilities - high damage is balanced by the tradeoff of leaving you open for attack), some can only be cancelled at certain times in the animation (such as when it makes sense, you can't cancel out of an ability when your character is upside down five feet in the air, that would be awfully silly). These are all things that tie TERA to actual action games, and the reason that GW2's combat seems floaty and lacking impact.

If anything, TERA locking you into animations for attacks makes it more similar to third person action games which tend to do the same or have limitations on when you can cancel attacks.
Yup. You're meant to think about your actions, know the attacks and combos of your class, and know the enemy that you're fighting.

Tera has great combat, but there's a huge priority placed on animation. You get stuck in really long animations every time you attack. You can string combos together (great idea btw) to shorten them, but they're still too long. It's much more noticeable in PvP where both players are actively trying to dodge attacks. A friend and I tried to duel recently and the duel timer ran out before one of us could kill the other. We just weren't landing any attacks. (warrior vs slayer)
It's unfortunate that you aren't a fan of the speed of the combat in TERA, but perhaps you were too low level? The classes speed up significantly the closer you get to endgame, especially after you start seeing attack speed on weapons. Also, make sure that you don't duel in town. There is no collision on players in town and it can make combat much harder than it needs to be because your attacks will carry you through your opponent.

Here's a video of Warrior and a Slayer at endgame dueling outside of town. Probably a little faster than your duel was.
 

Xiaoki

Member
GW2 is by far closer to traditional MMO combat than TERA.


"Actually tera locks you into animations which isn't particularily actiony."

If anything, TERA locking you into animations for attacks makes it more similar to third person action games which tend to do the same or have limitations on when you can cancel attacks.

Like Monster Hunter? I guess to GW2 fans Monster Hunter is not an "action" game.

In Tera, just like in Monster Hunter, there is a certain point in an attack's animation that you can cancel it with a roll or block. Some attacks can be cancelled before the hit and some cant.

Also, in a PvE situation with no holy trinity what I care about more than how I attack is how the mobs attack.

In Tera if a mob shoots an arrow at me I dont have to use a dodge roll to avoid to prevent being hit by hit by it, I can just sidestep 2' and the arrow will sail harmlessly past me.

However, in GW2 in the same instance the arrow will hit me if I sidestep 2' or 200' I will be hit all the same. In GW2 you have to use the dodge roll to avoid an attack(without using class specific special abilities) and even then it must be done at the right moment. If you roll too early or too late you will be hit.

This is what makes GW2 feel less "actiony" to me and why the non-holy trinity PvE feels chaotic and clumsy.
 
Here's a video of Warrior and a Slayer at endgame dueling outside of town. Probably a little faster than your duel was.

You're right, we weren't max level, and we were dueling in town. We were level 35-40 or so. The attacks in the linked video are a bit faster than what we were doing, but not by a ton. the collision would make a huge difference though. Our charge attacks were useless because we were charging through eachother. I'd probably be happier with a warrior though (I have a slayer) just because of the speed. I always play rogue classes, not just for the stealth, but the warrior seemed like it had issues at launch.

Just thinking about the combat in Tera makes me want to play it again. All my friends are back on Guild Wars 2 right now though.
 

Trey

Member
but in GW2 there are times where you clearly dodge but are still hit anyways.

Must be lag.

GW2 is by far closer to traditional MMO combat than TERA.

I disagree.

Uh...

Ice skates != closer to an action game. You're confusing action game with traditional MMO. WoW lets you skate around and use all of your abilities, is it an "action game?" In fact, aside from the roll, GW2 combat is not all that dissimilar from WoW.

Every class in TERA has active avoidance abilities, be it a dodge, backstep, block, or something else. Some classes have abilities you can use while moving, but they have animation lock, as they should for a game that focuses on your skill as a player.

Have you ever played a third person action game before? Monster Hunter, Phantasy Star Online, Dark Souls, DMC, Bayonetta... All of these games have animation lock. It's meant to punish you for mashing buttons without first thinking about your actions. It's exactly the opposite of games that let the player spam abilities with no thought as to where the ability will place them in relation to the enemy, or how it might leave them open to attack.


TERA has cancels as well, but they require precise timing and solid knowledge of the class and its skills. Some skills can't be cancelled (usually high-risk, high-reward abilities - high damage is balanced by the tradeoff of leaving you open for attack), some can only be cancelled at certain times in the animation (such as when it makes sense, you can't cancel out of an ability when your character is upside down five feet in the air, that would be awfully silly). These are all things that tie TERA to actual action games, and the reason that GW2's combat seems floaty and lacking impact.


Yup. You're meant to think about your actions, know the attacks and combos of your class, and know the enemy that you're fighting.

I'm not confusing GW2 with anything. It's unfortunate the game feels floaty to you but that does not allow you to spread misinformation about the game. GW2 combat differs from WoW's in significant ways beyond dodging:

1. GW2's projectiles have travel time, which means they can be sidestepped, counter to what Xoaki claims. Further, projectiles will be terminated by physical objects between them and their target. So a fireball will not fly through a tree to hit you, like in WoW.

2. Further, the hitbox of your weapon swing actually matters to whether you hit or not, and most of the skills in the game do not require a target to cause damage. That's why mods which do away with GW2's tab-targeting like this one are feasible in the game. That's also why GW2 is extremely playable with a controller.

3. You will attack in the direction your character is facing, not the direction your camera is pointed.

And I have significant pedigree in actions games like NG, and to a lesser extent DMC and Bayonetta. Your assertion that those games make you think about the skills you use is true only in the sense that if you can't cancel it you don't use it, and if you can cancel it, you cancel it. Dark Souls is the only game I've played wherein you must pay absolute tribute to animation time.

NG is about abusing skills with invincibility frames, and dodging and blocking.

DMC is about cancelling everything, in the interest of maximizing combos and staying "safe".

Bayo is roughly the same, except you can dodge liberally, and are encouraged to do so (witch time). I'm quite sure almost everything in that game can be cancelled into a dodge, as well.

Guild Wars 2, everything can be cancelled by a dodge which has invincibility frames. Certain professions, like warrior and elementalist, can cancel anything into a movement skill (skills which both cause damage and move your character a predetermined distance, which you can aim). For the latter, you should probably never see any non-movement skill animation through to its finish.

Entire dungeons in GW2 were solo'd on the strength of the combat system requiring the player to know when to dodge, when to take an hit, and exploit an enemy's attack pattern and animations.

So, similar to me not hand-waving Tera's mechanics away because I've only played it to the first BAM, I suggest you not do the same with regards to GW2.
 
"1. GW2's projectiles have travel time, which means they can be sidestepped, counter to what Xoaki claims. Further, projectiles will be terminated by physical objects between them and their target. So a fireball will not fly through a tree to hit you, like in WoW."


Not entirely true and you know it. Only some projectiles in GW2 can be sidestepped. Quite a few will still home in on your character, even if they have a fairly slow travel time. Who's really spreading misinformation here?
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
"1. GW2's projectiles have travel time, which means they can be sidestepped, counter to what Xoaki claims. Further, projectiles will be terminated by physical objects between them and their target. So a fireball will not fly through a tree to hit you, like in WoW."


Not entirely true and you know it. Only some projectiles in GW2 can be sidestepped. Quite a few will still home in on your character, even if they have a fairly slow travel time. Who's really spreading misinformation here?

They can all be dodged. Like many action rpgs, the dodge has an invinceability frame for a reason because some attacks can't be just side stepped,
 
"They can all be dodged. Like many action rpgs, the dodge has n invinceability frame for a reason."

You're talking about something entirely different from what we're talking about.
 

Trey

Member
Not entirely true and you know it. Only some projectiles in GW2 can be sidestepped. Quite a few will still home in on your character, even if they have a fairly slow travel time. Who's really spreading misinformation here?

I don't believe they are classified as projectiles if they can't be sidestepped. Instant casts and channeled skills can't be sidestepped, no. But an arrow such as in Xoaki's example, or a fireball, can be.
 
"I don't believe they are classified as projectiles if they can't be sidestepped. Instant casts and channeled skills can't be sidestepped, no. But an arrow such as in Xoaki's example, or a fireball, can be."


I'm specifically referring to skills like arrows, etc. some of them cannot be sidestepped.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
"I don't believe they are classified as projectiles if they can't be sidestepped. Instant casts and channeled skills can't be sidestepped, no. But an arrow such as in Xoaki's example, or a fireball, can be."


I'm specifically referring to skills like arrows, etc. some of them cannot be sidestepped.

Name examples rather than assertions what skills.
 
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