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Has the Fighting Game Genre Evolved Since PS1?

Campster said:
Except online play really isn't viable without serious redesigns to how fighting games work. I mean, if you think 200 millisecond lag is bad for a game of Counter-Strike or Quake 3, that's absolutely unplayable for serious fighter games.
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Tekken 5: DR has already shown it can work. Virtua Fighter 5 also has online play in the works.

3D gameplay didn't work either with the way 2D fighters handled gaming, so guess what? things had to change. Developers will just have to make compromises in the way the games are designed and played if they want the genre to grow, and I personally am prepared to accept any compromises necessary if that's what it takes for a fighting renaissance to happen.
 
Maybe the thread title is a bit misleading, afterall it mentions genre evolution, but the thread itself is about asking what NEW series have been created in the genre since the PS1 era.

Barkley's Justice said:
during the 32bit era we had tons of new fighting games introduced: soul calibur, virtua fighter, tekken, tobal...since that time we've had evolutionary sequels. but i'm sitting here drawing blanks thinking of some fresh new entrants?
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Barkley's Justice said:
but i'm sitting here drawing blanks thinking of some fresh new entrants?
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Barkley's Justice said:
but i'm sitting here drawing blanks thinking of some fresh new entrants?
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The first response is to mention Virtua Fighter 4?
 
Manmademan said:
Tekken 5: DR has already shown it can work. Virtua Fighter 5 also has online play in the works.
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Did DoAU/4 just not happen? I hate how that franchise gets discredited when it's pretty much the series which disproves this topic as no fighting franchise has gone through the changes which that one had. It started as ass and slowly built itself up to be a competitive fighter (and please don't go there, I'm not saying it's better or on par with VF).
 
jaundicejuice said:
Maybe the thread title is a bit misleading, afterall it mentions genre evolution, but the thread itself is about asking what NEW series have been created in the genre since the PS1 era.

The first response is to mention Virtua Fighter 4?
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Exactly. to a serious fighting enthusiast, VF4 represents big changes but to a casual? It's just more of the same. 2 combatants on either side of the screen punching the bejeezus out of each other. With essentially the same characters from the first three installments no less.

It was the same problem with Street Fighter 3. Great game. Quantum leap over the various versions of SFII in all departments. But to casual gamers? more of the same. Inferior 3D fighters like Tekken garnered all the attention instead because they really did something NEW with the formula, even if it was mostly graphical in nature.

the OP is mostly right. there haven't really been any revolutionary advances in fighting, only evolutionary.
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Did DoAU/4 just not happen? I hate how that franchise gets discredited when it's pretty much the series which disproves this topic as no fighting franchise has gone through the changes which that one had. It started as ass and slowly built itself up to be a competitive fighter (and please don't go there, I'm not saying it's better or on par with VF).
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I don't like or play the DOA series, so quite frankly I forgot about it. I have no idea how well the online play was implemented, but I suppose it belongs up there as well. The fighting genre is going to be brought kicking and screaming into the online world one way or another, lag be damned.

Somehow, FPS games were playable ten years ago over 28.8 modems, but fighters are "impossible!!" to play at all over the net with FIOS level speeds. Games are just going to have to be adapted to take that into account. Compromises will be made, and the genre will be better for it.
 
No

We still have two people doing fighting moves at thin air, and if another player gets in the way then they will get hurt; is that how fights really happen? Most unrealistic representation of an activity in a videogame ever...
 
McBacon said:
No

We still have two people doing fighting moves at thin air, and if another player gets in the way then they will get hurt; is that how fights really happen? Most unrealistic representation of an activity in a videogame ever...
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Blatant Troll. Fighting games aren't going for 100% accuracy to real life fights and never have been. You think fireballs and hurricane kicks happen in real tournaments? :lol

This doesn't hold back any OTHER genre that's not a sim. What about shooters? you think wars are actually fought by soldiers running all over the place firing with unlimited ammo, taking hits from multiple gunshots while leaping dozens of feet in the air shooting off rockets at the same time? please.

Take this crap somewhere else.
 
Someone else pointed this out in another thread on a similar topic...

Street Fighter II was THE game of its day, yet when Street Fighter III came out almost no one gave a shit. Now there are some mitigating circumstances with the decline of the genre and arcades but how can you go from having the Halo of its day to releasing the sequel to complete and utter apathy?

I think in the answer to that question lies the answer to the OP's question about new franchises in the genre, or why they are so few new ones.
 
jaundicejuice said:
Someone else pointed this out in another thread on a similar topic...

Street Fighter II was THE game of its day, yet when Street Fighter III came out almost no one gave a shit. Now there are some mitigating circumstances with the decline of the genre and arcades but how can you go from having the Halo of its day to releasing the sequel to complete and utter apathy?

I think in the answer to that question lies the answer to the OP's question about new franchises in the genre, or why they are so few new ones.
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because Street Fighter III isn't actually the third game in the series. Street Fighter experienced a gradual decline due to overmilking of the franchise. in between SFII and the various editions of SFIII there was:

Street Fighter II champion Edition
Street Fighter II Turbo
Super Street Fighter II
Super Street Fighter II Turbo
Street Fighter Alpha
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Street Fighter EX
Street Fighter The Movie: The Game
Xmen Vs. Street Fighter
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter
Marvel vs. Capcom
Marvel vs. Capcom 2

As well as a FLOOD of Clones and Similar Titles like Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, World Heroes, Samurai Shodown...all with sequels of their own. By the time SFIII came out it was quite frankly just "more of the same."

See how popular Halo remains after 13 sequels. It's worth noting that fighters didn't decline in popularity when SFIII failed to become a hit- All the attention went to 3D fighters like Tekken 2/3, Soul Blade, Beastorizer/Bloody Roar, and Virtua Fighter that innovated by bringing fighters to a 3D plane. The real decline didn't start until later.

edit: repeatedly edited because I realized I kept forgetting a street fighter here and there.
 
The last great leap in 3D fighter playability was SC1. Everything after that is fluff.

Anyone who mastered Tekken 3 (PS1), DOA1 (PS1), or VF2 (PS1-era) would be top-tier with the fighters of today because the core mechanics haven't changed.

And that's why the genre is in continual decline; the only hope of keeping it alive is online play because no one has significantly evolved the gameplay outside of novelties (that often only last a single entry in the series).

From a 2D perspective, I'd argue that Guilty Gear, MvC2, and SF3 are a generational leap over SFA3 (PS1).
 
sh4mike said:
Anyone who mastered Tekken 3 (PS1), DOA1 (PS1), or VF2 (PS1-era) would be top-tier with the fighters of today because the core mechanics haven't changed.
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Thank god for that, cause you know if they changed I wouldn't be playing the games I loved anymore ya know?


I always hate these arguments with a passion.
 
Manmademan said:
Blatant Troll. Fighting games aren't going for 100% accuracy to real life fights and never have been. You think fireballs and hurricane kicks happen in real tournaments? :lol

This doesn't hold back any OTHER genre that's not a sim. What about shooters? you think wars are actually fought by soldiers running all over the place firing with unlimited ammo, taking hits from multiple gunshots while leaping dozens of feet in the air shooting off rockets at the same time? please.

Take this crap somewhere else.
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I just think that almost every genre has evolved, but fighters are still the same old shit.
 
Why do people who don't play fighters competitively try to argue like they do?
 
cilonen said:
Rival Schools United by Fate?

I quite liked those games.
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I was going with post ps1 franchises, so no not that (but thats one of my fave fighters, that and darkstalkers)

i was thinking of this:
PA.84392.001.jpg
 
How relevant are these new fighting game series you are mentioning if they are never released outside of Japan? On one hand they kind of prove a point for you, but on the other they're almost going against you at the same time.
 
Real innovation would come from being able to fight 4 VS 4 without ending up with poor animations and the likes. Very few games have done this.

And also being able to use the environment seamlessly.

Only Def Jam has really innovated.
 
AdmiralViscen said:
Hm? Competitive Smash players play on Final Destination (no platforms) with items turned off.
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Really now, that's not true. Kirby64, Pokemon Stadium and Fountain of Dreams are all pretty common in tournaments as well I believe.
 
Honestly, no one will take my opinion seriously, but here goes:

In regards to Smash bros being a fighting game or not, this is what it boils down to

SSBM (I favor this over SSB, sorry) is a fighting game when:
Items are off
Stage is tournament ready
There are only 2 people on the level (or, 4 people 2v2)


anything else, its a party game.
 
Ferrio said:
Thank god for that, cause you know if they changed I wouldn't be playing the games I loved anymore ya know? I always hate these arguments with a passion.
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Read the topic title -- you're in the wrong thread. I believe you are looking for topic "Fighting games shouldn't truly evolve because we love them old-school like PS1 days."
 
Oh come on now, not this again. Smash brothers is a fighting game. It doesn't appeal to the same audience that other series do, and arguably isn't as deep but it's still a fighter.

Hell, Shaq-Fu is a fighter. It's just not a particularly GOOD one.
 
1358~The-Bouncer-Posters.jpg
ampersand.jpg
039_FINAL_FANTASY_DOUBLESIDED~Final-Fantasy-The-Spirits-Within-Posters.jpg


Squaresoft stepped up the innovation in the genre with Tobal No.1, Tobal No.2, and Bushido Blade. The later implementing a large scale 3D environment and more realistic damage model for weapons based combat, the formers' grappling and movement systems are still better than pretty much anything else out there.

But when The Bouncer took forever to get out and grossly under delivered it resulted in busted relations between Dream Factory and Square, taking away the prized relationship that produced Tobal, and was then followed up by a monumental financial flop in Spirits Within that made Square become ultra conservative last generation.

The other players are content to milk their franchises. Square made the next step then lost the desire to keep pushing. Since then no one has come along to pick up where they left off.
 
No, I find the genre to be pretty stagnant as far as evolution goes. Nothing wrong with the top games in the series but as a whole, there isn't much thats been added to the genre. Tao Fang tried adding breakable extremities and whatnot.
 
smash bros is a platforming tournament-themed beat-em-up. not exactly a fighting game just because it has fighting in it.
 
I'd like to see some games that thoughtfully follow up on the ideas from Bushido Blade. That was a great direction for the genre that just sort of got forgotten.
 
davepoobond said:
smash bros is a platforming tournament-themed beat-em-up. not exactly a fighting game just because it has fighting in it.
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I can't even tell if comments like these are serious any more.
 
This thread is HILARIOUS, only three people in here know anything about fitan gaems.

First of all, Smash Bros. is not a fighting game, UNLESS, as one poster pointed out, you modify the settings to turn items off, etc etc. Without those conditions, the assesment (sic) of it being a "party game" is accurate.

Secondly, Third Strike (SF3 in general, really) changed 2D fighting. It's funny how something as (seemingly) simple as a parry could radically change an entire franchise.

Third, juggles have no place in fitan gaems unless it's some lamebag VS game. Probably one of the few things I dislike about 3S, aside from terribly lame characters.

Fourth, can we honestly say VF4 is a huge leap over VF3, like VF3 was a huge leap over VF2?

Fifth, has Tekken really changed AT ALL since Tekken 2 came out?

Sixth, Guilty Gear Accent Core ## Turbo Slashdot Bridget Is a Man Edition Turbo is so broken, I've no clue how anyone can play that game and take it seriously.

Seventh, Fighter's Megamix, VF2 are "unplayable?" You're kidding... right?

RIGHT?

Also, SEGA needs to port VF3 to EK BAWK and put it on XBL.

DISCUSS!
 
kazuo said:
Fifth, has Tekken really changed AT ALL since Tekken 2 came out?
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It has changed tons, I'm not just saying this as the defense force squad leader, but as a fighting gamer... Tekken has evolved the most out of the 3D fighting games.
 
pancakesandsex said:
I was going with post ps1 franchises, so no not that (but thats one of my fave fighters, that and darkstalkers)

i was thinking of this:
PA.84392.001.jpg
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Yeah, my bad - I thought the original was on the Dreamcast, but it's PS1.

That looks very interesting - I'm a sucker for fighting game character design, and they look good.
 
HAY GUYS ARE FINAL FANTASIES REALLY RPGS?

I love how every time this thread comes up we get into this retarded pissing match.
 
I don't know what's more funny, the fact that everyone responded to everything but the original post--some people obviously read the thread title and hit reply, the specter of the "Is Smash Bros a fighting game" arguement rearing its ugly head, diehards (be they real or imagined) responding to perceived slights to their respective favorite franchises, etc, etc--OR that we've got someone consciously typing out the words "fitan gaems".
 
kazuo said:
Sixth, Guilty Gear Accent Core ## Turbo Slashdot Bridget Is a Man Edition Turbo is so broken, I've no clue how anyone can play that game and take it seriously.
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You'd have an argument if you listed the original Guilty Gear (Infinite Instant Kills) or at the very, very least, Slash (Ky? Top Tier? Not in my GG game). But besides the aftermentioned, the GG games aren't broken in the slightest. Hell, the series remains to be one of the more balanced (Not getting into a separate argument if it's the most balanced) fighting game series in existence despite how the characters can still be placed into looser tiers and the game mechanics like Roman Cancels only add to the game.

There's a reason why it's not uncommon to see lower tier characters win tournaments in GG games, when you'd be dead-pressed to see a MvC2 team consisting of Roll, Mega, and some other third character have a ghost of a chance of beating your Cables, Magnetos, Sentinels, and Storms.
 
Well, Mortal Kombat did some "drastic" (as far as Mortal Kombat goes) changes.

Added 2-3 fighting styles per character, 3D movement, air kombat, plus the addition of multiple/extra modes (adventure, puzzle, chess, racing, etc.) It was also the first online 3D fighting game in the US (well, because DOA Ultimate was delayed... :p ). So as a series, it evolved (compared to the previous MK games; for some it was for the best, for others it was for the worst)

But this is NeoGAF, so I'll probably be quoted a thousand times (or just quote my avatar) talking about how much MK sucks, and how it is an horrible excuse as far as fighting games go, and bla bla bla (ignoring that I based this reply in the MK series, and not compared it to other fighting games); so I'm not going to make this post/reply any longer. :p
 
Manmademan said:
because Street Fighter III isn't actually the third game in the series. Street Fighter experienced a gradual decline due to overmilking of the franchise. in between SFII and the various editions of SFIII there was:

Street Fighter II champion Edition
Street Fighter II Turbo
Super Street Fighter II
Super Street Fighter II Turbo
Street Fighter Alpha
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Street Fighter EX
Street Fighter The Movie: The Game
Xmen Vs. Street Fighter
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter
Marvel vs. Capcom
Marvel vs. Capcom 2

As well as a FLOOD of Clones and Similar Titles like Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, World Heroes, Samurai Shodown...all with sequels of their own. By the time SFIII came out it was quite frankly just "more of the same."

See how popular Halo remains after 13 sequels. It's worth noting that fighters didn't decline in popularity when SFIII failed to become a hit- All the attention went to 3D fighters like Tekken 2/3, Soul Blade, Beastorizer/Bloody Roar, and Virtua Fighter that innovated by bringing fighters to a 3D plane. The real decline didn't start until later.

edit: repeatedly edited because I realized I kept forgetting a street fighter here and there.
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Just wanted to point out, some of those games came out after Street Fighter III: New Generation.
 
Lostconfused said:
So smash brothers is the way of the future now?
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Why do we need a single future for the genre?

Why can't the future of fighting games be diversity? Why can't we have classic Street Fighters and more arcadey fare like Smash Brothers and 3D and 2D and all sorts of games?
 
The arcade fighter hasn't changed in almost a decade. Obviously every new iteration/franchise has it's own little tweaks but they are little more than that. The last real change was the introduction of the "party" style fighting game like Smash Bros and Powerstone (and their less popular kin). The fighting genre is also highly susceptible to fanboyism/elitism so from people really into fighting games you won't get a straight answer.
 
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