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Hayashi - NG2 and Bayonetta 'outdated'

Bayonetta is fresh in that not many high action games have vehicle sequences/vehicle jumping sequences similar to old school beat em ups. NG3 is going to need to have more than just normal combat situations to top the various scenarios Bayonetta threw at you.
 
benita said:
ITT people rage about Bayonetta being a revolution and not understanding what game design means.
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Maybe you're right, but it doesn't add much to the conversation to make a comment like that without elaborating.
 
Bayonetta was a complete standout and, I felt, was snubbed from some awards. Fantastic and addicting gameplay, massive amounts of charm, and tons of replayability.
 
Totobeni said:
A student is like his teacher...Itagaki will be proud for sure.
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Except Itagaki doesn't rehash someone else's work and make it a shallow horrible version.

Primate Ryan said:
There was nothing outdated about Ninja Gaiden 2's performance problems.

I don't expect to like Ninja Gaiden 3, just like I don't expect to like the new DMC. Both projects are in the hands of people that I have no trust in whatsoever, both based on past work and the things they've said concerning games.
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This.
 
I think the Bayonetta statement is just to cover his ass; make NGIII seem more appealing . I mean he's hardly going to say - ''oh yes, bayonetta is amazing - I'm not sure if we can top it'', although I'm sure the game will look better visually, so maybe that's what he's refering to when he says 'old'.

On difficulty, I have no problem with the game being easier. NG2 was at times unfairly difficult, often due to an erratic camera and to many projectile attacks coming off screen whilst I was trying to concentrate on attacking / blocking enemies around me. Sigma 2 cleared this up - it was a decent challenge (especially on the harder settings) and made sure you had to still learn the mechanics - block / attack / dodgy and couldn't just button mash. At the end of the day, as long as you still have to master the deep batle system and can't just play like God of War then it's all good. If he means easier than Sigma and akin to the more westernised games of this genre then... that kinda sucks.

I'll wait for some E3 demo booth impressions.
 
From the little bit of bayonetta i played it was firmly in the devil may cry mold. it may not be surpassed yet but it is a 10 year old type of action game.
 
Class_A_Ninja said:
I feel that the level structure of Bayonetta and NG2 was a hell of a lot more outdated than NG1's beautifully interconnected world.
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I preferred that thou.

Edit: The level designs of NG2 and Bayonetta that is.
 
Just started playing Bayonetta last night. Game is so awesome. Hilarious, tight combat, and it's a great looking game. Aside from it being an action adventure game, I can't see this game being "outdated". It far surpasses every other action adventure game I've played this gen (ng2, dmc4).
 
Oh look, another retarded quote from Hayashi.

NGB, NG2, and Bayonetta are infinitely better than anything he's going to direct for the rest of his career.
 
With nothing to back his words (yet), this statement is empty. Maybe his team found a way to evolve this genre and his words could be a little justified, but that is yet to be seen.

So now we have Itagaki been very quiet and polite and Hayashi trashing other games.

If I have to believe that someone is going to do something new with the genre, probably that's Itagaki or Kamiya, not Hayashi.

By the way, Dragon Sword it's not a bad game.
 
Zeal said:
i cringe thinking what he will do to Itagaki's legacy. it just isn't fair.
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Fair huh??

Well how do you think Kamiya feels looking at DmC??? At least they maintained the overall art direction for NG3.
 
Class_A_Ninja said:
I feel that the level structure of Bayonetta and NG2 was a hell of a lot more outdated than NG1's beautifully interconnected world.
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An interconnected level structure is unsuitable for a game built to encourage numerous replays as Bayonetta is. Its ranking system depends on self-contained and subdivided levels.
 
Teknoman said:
Bayonetta is fresh in that not many high action games have vehicle sequences/vehicle jumping sequences similar to old school beat em ups. NG3 is going to need to have more than just normal combat situations to top the various scenarios Bayonetta threw at you.
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In other words gimmicks are what an action game needs.

*sigh*

I think we need to define terms here because we're just not getting anywhere like this.

First off, for something to be outdated, a more advanced version of it must exist. Windows 95 is outdated because Windows 7 does literally everything better. Windows 7 has been around for a while now, but you can't call it outdated until something comes that does everything better. Even if it exists for another 10 years, it won't be outdated until we invent programs that simply cannot run on it, and to do that we'd need to have invented a new OS that is capable of it. THEN it'd be outdated. Now a video game example: DMC1. It is, in many ways, outdated. It uses triangle as a jump button. It has a mere 2 weapons (Alaster and Force Edge are the same mechanically. Maybe you can say 3 with the Sparda). It uses the triggers to lock on, and bring up the menu to switch stuff (iirc...), and the taunt function. This means that there are a total of 3 buttons are wholy unused. Compare this to Current gen dante. Real time weapon switch (for both DA's and guns), style selection (real time in DMC4), a greater variety of weapons (DMC3), a more convienent jump button. DMC1 is still a great game because it still arguably has the best enemies and environments, so it is not wholy obsolete, but going back to play dante in it does show how far the character has come in terms of powers in gameplay. DMC1 dante is outdated.

Now, with that in mind, explain me exactly how Bayonetta is outdated. Yes, it's a game featuring the 3rd person with a woman who uses mainly melee weaponry against enemies, but that doesn't make it outdated, that makes it an action game. You might as well say call FPS's outdated for still being firing guns in the first person perspective. Taking that away, putting her in on a bike, or 2D background that seperates it from normal gameplay is not innovation, and we most certainly do NOT fucking need more of it. Besides, bayonetta does plenty of new stuff that hasn't really been done in action games, atleast not the way it did it.

I could name hundreds of little things like the ability to speed up movement using panther mode or witch time. But the real innovation in Bayonetta is the Dodge offset. Let me explain why Dodge offset is so huge. In ninja gaiden, you might have noticed that weapons all have these huge combos. They are powerful, but hardly ever use them. Why? Because they take a long ass time to wind up, and you have multiple enemies on your ass that would hit you before you finish wailing on one. So you use the shorter, more practical techniques instead. With Dodge Offset, Bayonetta remedies this problem. By allowing a player evasion while keeping their combo on hold, players full potentials were unlocked. Combos that before were impossible to do practically now could be realized. This is a feature that should be spread to other games. Now, while the NG's are still enjoyable games, you cannot go back to them and look at all the combos in that menu and tell me that Dodge offset would improve the game. That is why I can definitely say that Bayonetta did something new. This is an innovation.

Some of you may argue that this is 'merely' an evolution rather than a revolution. I'm honestly not sure what the difference is. Personally, I thought that an evolution was when the next step was obvious. Look at the transition from DMC3 to DMC4. Capcom said that the only reason they didn't have the 4 styles available as a real time weapon switch was because the PS2 didn't have the memory. Lo and behold, Current gen consoles come to the rescue with DMC4 and now we have real time style switch. It's obvious what they needed to do, it took 0 brain power to do this, and it was really their plan from the beginning anyway. But it was still a change in the formula, and it obviously greatly affected what the game played like, so it needs a name for what it did. A more subtle evolution would be the control scheme of Bayonetta. It's like Kamiya saw the style system and thought it was annoying to switch between everything, so he made a comprehensive control scheme that included everything. You have trickster by using the huge invincibility frames in the dodge mechanic along with the high speed of the panther. You have gunslinger and swordmaster built in with what weapons you set in your slots. You have Royal gaurd in the form of an assessory along with the armor of DMC4 in another assessory. Quicksilver is obvious. And lastly you have dopplegander in an assessory as well. All 6 styles of DMC3 can be configured into a single control scheme, no switching required. But an innovation would be what Bayonetta did with Dodge offset. No one had even considered the idea and it wasn't until after the game was out that we saw how great it was. And yes, any dial-a-combo system now feels incomplete without it.

But does that make it a revolution? Not yet. A revolution is a fundamental change in the industry itself. Like how Halo, despite not being the first competent console FPS, is the one that popularized them on consoles. It was a major shift in the all of gaming. It's hard to imagine where we would be had it not done that. CoD may not exist, and how would games be different without their influence?. Well, that's an argument for another day, but to no one can deny it's impact. If that wasn't a revolution, then what is? Another revolution is DMC1. It set the model of what 3D action games would follow. Now, the question is whether bayonetta has done the same. But action gaming is a niche genre. After Bayonetta, the only action game that came out was GoW3, a few months later, and really not even targeted at the same audience. You can't count it. Besides that...what? Castlevania? GoW wannabe (and even then, having it be the action game I played after Bayo, I tried to Dodge offset, forgetting I don't have it anymroe) Besides that, nothing that I recall. So, to see if it indeed revolutionized the game industry, we need to wait for the next time a game with a Dial-a-combo system comes out, and if it takes Bayonetta's Dodge offset and incoperates it into it's own game. That doesn't mean it has to do the same thing, but Bayonetta gave a starting point. Not all revolutions are huge.

Those are my thoughts on whether Bayonetta is innovative or not. If you disagree with the definitions, come and state your own, because simply the back and forth of yes and no without clear meaning of what you are talking about is getting old.
 
sankt-Antonio said:
I welcome my new god of ninja overlord.
I always thought that NG difficulty was somewhat cheap - and im getting old.
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That's what Ninja Dog was for. Surely it's not ideal for the latest iteration of a series renowned for its difficulty to be neutered in the name of accessibility. Look what happened with Devil May Cry 2. A better plan would be to make the game tough but fair (namely by removing elements like projectile spam that serve mainly to limit the player's strategic options and increase his or her frustration) and to include several difficulties below the default setting, perhaps along with modifiers like regenerating health and a DMC/Bayonetta-style automatic mode that can be enabled or disabled in a menu.
 
AAK said:
Fair huh??

Well how do you think Kamiya feels looking at DmC??? At least they maintained the overall art direction for NG3.
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At least DMC had a pretty good run without Kamiya. DMC3 is still the pinnacle of the combo genre and DMC4 had great combat hampered by atrocious level design... Let's not speak of DMC2 and DmC. I think even Hayashi will do better than those two games.
 
When prodded about the impact Bayonetta has had on the 3D action genre, Hayashi added “Bayonetta has some good stuff but Bayonetta is old, game design wise, already.”
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Bayonetta is my favourite game this generation, but he's right : design-wise it's very standard, it follows the codes of the PS2 generation. Only it's very, very well done.

I'm all for them trying to bring something new to the table. It won't be easy, though.
 
ghst said:
i'd put money down on 30 fps right about now.
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well, I'm in line for the PS3 version so if I had money, I would be betting on even less on 30FPS

it'll be funny to see if he can back this up, though, I'll suck my own dick if he can deliver an action game that rivals Bayonetta
 
Alx said:
Bayonetta is my favourite game this generation, but he's right : design-wise it's very standard, it follows the codes of the PS2 generation. Only it's very, very well done.

I'm all for them trying to bring something new to the table. It won't be easy, though.
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Virtually every modern game incorporates design elements codified by older games. Hayashi has no ground to stand on unless he can propose a radically new structure for an action game. Who wants to bet NG3 will borrow substantially from the template laid down by Devil May Cry?
 
Generic said:
In other words gimmicks are what an action game needs.

*sigh*

I think we need to define terms here because we're just not getting anywhere like this.

First off, for something to be outdated, a more advanced version of it must exist.

...

Those are my thoughts on whether Bayonetta is innovative or not. If you disagree with the definitions, come and state your own, because simply the back and forth of yes and no without clear meaning of what you are talking about is getting old.
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Rock solid post.

EDIT: Fixed
 
Alx said:
he's right : design-wise it's very standard, it follows the codes of the PS2 generation.
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This post on the other hand is completely empty of meaning. Things that made it new(better) were in the design. If it was standard then it wouldn't be the outstanding. Thus it is new design-wise. What are the other ways? WTF @ "codes of the PS2 generation".
 
Bayonetta is the best hack n' slash I've ever played, both in style and in substance. There's no way that Hayashi (who didn't deliver so many who da thunk it great ideas for Other M) can rival Bayonetta in the slightest...no question. After all, a developer is only as good as their last game. I'll even set the scene for ya': Youtube Fedor vs. Herring (NG3 being Herring).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see NG3 put up a fight, but unless they completely rip Bayonetta off...I don't see it happening. I do think it'll be graphically prettier, maybe better story, cutting through enemies should involve momentum or force feedback or whatnot. But I tend to highly doubt the level design, creativity, combat system (both in depth, mastery and fun) will equal or surpass Bayonetta.

So until we see a decent scope of what NG3 brings to the table, all Hayashi deserves is a LMAO.
 
I liked the core gameplay Bayo offered. But let's face it, the story was even worse than the DMC cheese, the vehicle sections sucked and the bosses weren't really as good as the competition offers. Sure they looked epic and huge, but the ones I really enjoyed were the Jeanne fights. Not the glowing weakspot mountains.
 
zoukka said:
I liked the core gameplay Bayo offered. But let's face it, the story was even worse than the DMC cheese, the vehicle sections sucked and the bosses weren't really as good as the competition offers. Sure they looked epic and huge, but the ones I really enjoyed were the Jeanne fights. Not the glowing weakspot mountains.
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Stop caring about stories in action games. :I
 
Riposte said:
This post on the other hand is completely empty of meaning. Things that made it new(better) were in the design. If it was standard then it wouldn't be the outstanding. Thus it is new design-wise. What are the other ways? WTF @ "codes of the PS2 generation".
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If you'd prefer me to be more specific, I can.
When you tear it down, the mechanics of the game are quite common, even "old school" sometimes (which is also part of the appeal) : linear levels with spawning groups of ennemies, ending with a boss with attack patterns and weak points, extensive movelists linked to weapon inventory allowing for rewarding combos, hidden chests, leveling up, scoring system... All of it was already at the base of games like the previous DMC or Ninja Gaiden.

There are a few interesting additions to be appreciated, like dodge offset and the ability to use 4 weapons through 2 sets, hence the "it has some good stuff", but it doesn't really break any code, it's just a good way to implement them.

Once again it's no criticism : Bayonetta is in my opinion the best game that has ever been made using that recipe. But it's not a new recipe.
 
&#8704 said:
There's a higher chance of an asteroid hitting the earth in this week than there is a chance of NG3 being better than Bayonetta in any department.
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Bayonetta is an average game at best which was over hyped to hell and back

NG3 will have no problems beating it
 
zoukka said:
I liked the core gameplay Bayo offered. But let's face it, the story was even worse than the DMC cheese, the vehicle sections sucked and the bosses weren't really as good as the competition offers. Sure they looked epic and huge, but the ones I really enjoyed were the Jeanne fights. Not the glowing weakspot mountains.
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Bayo was awesome if only for the fact that it was so aggressive that it even made otakus uncomfortable. "Do you want to touch me?"
 
Monocle said:
An interconnected level structure is unsuitable for a game built to encourage numerous replays as Bayonetta is. Its ranking system depends on self-contained and subdivided levels.
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NG1 was divided into levels just fine in my opinion. I guess you can stroll around a bit more, but if you want to get a good rank you will just have to stay on the critical path.

For me it was a downgrade similar to Resident Evil 4 to Resident Evil 5. RE4 felt like a much more complex and intertwined experience. RE 5 was completely tube based level design. God of War games are great a weaving the levels together. For me, it just shows that they actually cared about all aspects of the game, rather than just turning things up to 11.

Some of the best moments in video games are when you pop out of some underworld location and are in a place that you already know.
 
Wasn't Hayashi partly in charge of Metroid: Other M?

DMC is being rebooted by Ninja Theory and this numbnut is developing Ninja Gaiden III... fuck
 
I vastly prefer the linear, level-based structure of NG2. It's completely old-school and cuts all of the bullshit out; it moves you straight from one encounter to the next with no downtime in between. Perfect.

The variety of locations is also wonderful. You're in New York one minute and then you're in Venice the next. Why? Because who gives a shit, it's a video game. Kill some lobster demons with tits and shaddap.
 
I'm really pumped for Devil's Third. If Itagaki can deliver a true blend of awesome action and third person shooter gameplay, then I will bow down to him.
 
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