Boxing is a sport.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
HBO's 'Real Sports' panel laughs at eSports segment
- Thread starter element
- Start date
Boxing is a sport.
iamshadowlark
Banned
1) I rarely if ever see billiards classified as a sport
2) That argument isn't really valid. Billiards is a game where you utilize sticks to hit balls. It requires various levels of athletic principles. Strength, muscle control, balance, flexibilty etc. The athletic motion creates a real physical reaction.
Video games are played sedentarly. Using some sort of input mechanism, you manipulate electronic cursors in various methods that are programmed to get programmed electronic results. There is little to no physical stimulus, there's absolutely no physical reaction. In that vain, there's honestly no question as to why video games are deemed "esports" versus sports in any traditional sense.
Nymphae
Banned
Yeah it does. Pressing buttons does require some degree of physical strength.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Breathing requires physical strength. What's the point again?
professor_t
Member
Because one of the reasons we have language is so that we can have a shared understanding of things. It facilitates effective communication and problem solving to have consensually defined and widely shared definitions and categories.
Oceans and rain both involve water -- why should we fuss about a specific word for each? Murder and manslaughter both involve a person's demise -- why should we split hairs about having separate terms?
An athlete is someone who is proficient at a sport. If LoL is a sport than a professional LoL player is an athlete.
ExFalsoQuodlibet
Member
I think I got it. Wether you personally decide sports are defined by their physical nature or competitive nature, you have that esports are or are not masterrace sport.
But another, much more important point of view is if they should be officially recognized sports by the means of social convention. Professional sports provide any sort of benefit, their development is funded and their engagement is encouraged in schools, provides credits and it's seen as a legitimate career. Should esports be considered worthy of the same things? I think the answer is yes, maybe not in their current particular implementation, but the point is worthy of debate.
But another, much more important point of view is if they should be officially recognized sports by the means of social convention. Professional sports provide any sort of benefit, their development is funded and their engagement is encouraged in schools, provides credits and it's seen as a legitimate career. Should esports be considered worthy of the same things? I think the answer is yes, maybe not in their current particular implementation, but the point is worthy of debate.
Nymphae
Banned
You are making a distinction between manipulating physical real world objects with some tool, and doing the same thing with a digital object, but the requirements to complete the tasks are basically the same. Precise motor skills, training, strategy, etc. to achieve your goal of getting the ball in the hole, or executing your parry at exactly the right moment. I don't see a difference other than one set of tools is physical and the other isn't (well actually your controller is a physical object as well, so...)
The word "Sport" defined: An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Now, given that the "E" in "E-Sports" clearly designates it as an "Electronic Sport," one would assume the physical exertion requirement of the definition can be removed from the equation leaving us with "skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."
I don't understand the issue with this.
Now, given that the "E" in "E-Sports" clearly designates it as an "Electronic Sport," one would assume the physical exertion requirement of the definition can be removed from the equation leaving us with "skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."
I don't understand the issue with this.
Nymphae
Banned
My point was that you were factually incorrect when you said
Do you understand?
iamshadowlark
Banned
I'm making a distinction between using real physical principles to create real physical motions that bare real physical results(you know like those silly definitions state) and sendetarly using an object with little to no physical stimulus, that produces digital results with absolutly no bearing in real world physics. Stevie could see the difference.
People don't want to except the "e" for whatever hilariously pedantic reason.
Dlacy13g
Member
My take...sports involve physical athleticism. If what you do does not involve a higher than normal degree of physical endurance, agility and skills revolving around the physical aspects I don't consider it a sport but rather a competition. There is nothing wrong with competitions btw...they just aren't sports. So "eSports" to me fall into that category. Its in the same boat for me as Darts or Billards. Yes there is skill involved and its highly competitive but it lacks that true physicality that I feel "sports" should contain. I also don't consider "auto-racing" a sport, but rather I think that is a competition of driver & technology.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
He obviously means substantial physical exertion. You're just being purposefully obtuse.
Pops Maellard
Member
You have to be in peak physical condition to be a race car driver.
Nymphae
Banned
Right, the only point you are making is one thing happens with real objects and one doesn't. Which doesn't negate any of the skill, strategy, or difficulty required in completing the digital task. I don't care if people call games sports or not. I just think there's an undeniable level of skill required for some high level games, which I personally find just as impressive and worthy of my respect as someone who has great physical skills.
Funky Functionality
Member
Oh my god. This is only from the first couple of pages. I couldn't keep going.
This general ignorance about motorsports is astounding.
I would love to take any of you on a ride-along with me in a full flame-retardant suit around Road Atlanta on a hot summer day. You would scream bloody murder upon the blind approach to turn 3, you would likely lose your lunch when we dive into the esses out of turn 4, and then your breakfast when I brake for 10a later than you would imagine is possible at 140+ mph. You may even cry when you feel the car writhing beneath you as it struggles for grip through turn 12 at 110+ mph with nothing but a concrete wall to comfort us should we lose control. Your entire body will be sore from the harness holding you in place against the G-forces after only a lap or two, not to mention the immense heat you'll have to suffer through. Now add 20+ more cars to the mix, just inches apart in many cases, and less than that at times. All of this and you wouldn't even be driving the damned car--just riding in the passenger seat.
And that would only be your welcoming party to amateur club racing! This experience absolutely pales in comparison to top-tier motorsports like NASCAR and F1.
If you're scoffing, don't take my word for it:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/02/iracing-star-gets-chance-to-try-real-thing-at-road-atlanta/
This is the difference between e-sports and motorsports. It's a very real difference, and he was only driving a Star Mazda--a car with less than half the performance capability of a modern F1 car.
"E-sports" only require mental fortitude and the ability to move your limbs quickly and accurately against little to no resistance. Racing requires both mental and physical fortitude in droves. Educate yourselves, please. They are not at all comparable.
Nymphae
Banned
No, I wasn't. He said games require no physical strength. I said they do. He said, so does breathing. Who is being obtuse?
Games DO require physical strength, but some here are claiming that is not enough physical strength to be considered a sport. Ok, tell me exactly how much is required please.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Posts like this are some of the FUNNIEST I've seen on gaf. Wow LOL.
Next-up:
Breathing to become a sport (lung strength and elasticity).
Followed by:
Speed typing!
Forum debates (thoughtful speed typing)!
Thumb wrestling!
Double-jointedness!
Yelling as loud as you can!
Blinking quickly!
eddfromtheriver
Banned
I'm of the opinion that, a sport involves physical activity at high/moderate levels, that's the reason why i don't think Golf or Chess are actual sports.
So i agree with them, but not with the mocking.
So i agree with them, but not with the mocking.
Your ignorance is shining through brightly.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
what don't people consider extreme sports(skatebording, biking, motorcross, etc) real sports
I'll never understand that
I'll never understand that
Nymphae
Banned
Glad I can get a laugh! I was just taking what he said literally. Some people are saying physical exertion is a requirement for a sport. You cannot argue that using my hands to manipulate a fighting stick isn't physical exertion. I realize this is absurd, but it's his stated criteria. He needs to provide a more specific definition of how much physical exertion is required before something can be considered a sport.
No, an athlete is someone who is proficient at an athletic sport or an athletic form of exercise. LoL is in no way athletic.
I assume you're joking.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
depends on your moutaindew/dortito intake
BloodMoney
Banned
is a game a sport
is a part a component
i really don't give a shit.
is a part a component
i really don't give a shit.
Super late reply, but:
The difference between a game and most sports, as I've said, is that the former moves on much quicker. I never played football aside from a few flag FB's during gym class way back when, didn't care much for watching it during high school. While I still don't care for the individual players I know more than enough now through years of casually watching while in bars, etc to enjoy games here and there. You can't do this w/ video games now because the rules keep changing, dramatically, because the fans are constantly going to the new thing. I may be able to spot great moves in CS 1.6, but what does that matter when the fanbase has already largely moved on to whatever new kid on the block is being watched?
Nymphae
Banned
Kind of but not really, see my last post.
lol no you fucking dont. F1 sure
I like how you omitted the part that he did remarkably well, ripping off lap after lap cleanly and eventually coming within 3 seconds of what a real racecar driver could do.
Eventually his body gave out but the skills he learned ON THE COMPUTER translated to real life "sports" quite well. He could achieve the physical conditioning in a couple months, but the years he spent honing his reaction times and knowledge of the tracks translated quite well into the real sport.
This says the mental acuity and muscle memory of negotiating the tracks at that speed were completely applicable to the sport.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
By that logic anything that you're competing in that requires literally any physical action is a sport. At that point it's pointless to even have the word sport because every game/competition in existence is a sport.
Playing Bop-It is now a sport because you have to move your hands.
Candy Land is now a sport because you have to move your hands.
Going to a bar and seeing who can chug a beer faster is now a sport because you have to tilt your head back AND drink.
Cooking competitions are now sports because you have to move your hands and walk to make food.
Jeopardy is now a sport because you have to hit a buzzer before other people do.
Nymphae
Banned
I don't see anything wrong with that. If people want to make leagues devoted to competitive Bop-It playing, or whatever, and want to call it a sport, I just don't see what's wrong with that. Adding more things to the category of sports doesn't diminish the value of existing sports.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
It's just weird and doesn't make any sense. We have a word for it already. It's a game. Its perfectly classified there. Trying to find ways to pigeonhole it into another definition where it is suspect at best doesn't make any sense.
Can we all agree that 99% of people that watch traditional, American, competitive sports would say that games of chance and skill like poker, chess, and video games are not sports but are still competitive endeavors?
Why do you your game to be a sport so badly anyway? Growing up in the 80s where playing many games such as my NES, Atari, or D&D were things that many of us did to get away from traditional sports. To me, the term "ESports" is just the broifying of a hobby/game that doesn't need to be considered a sport. If it's of any value is should stand on it's own merits.
Why do you your game to be a sport so badly anyway? Growing up in the 80s where playing many games such as my NES, Atari, or D&D were things that many of us did to get away from traditional sports. To me, the term "ESports" is just the broifying of a hobby/game that doesn't need to be considered a sport. If it's of any value is should stand on it's own merits.
Nymphae
Banned
Sports are games too, why do we need two classifications at all? Why aren't they all just "competitive games"?
Of those on the panel laughing at the premise, their primary rationale for eSports not being sports is that "it's a game." That's not a compelling point, since sports are by definition games. I'd like to hear some other, better formulated points for why some people think it's different, but that exchange wasn't a good source for that.
The biggest bar facing esports from becoming legitimate in the long run is the fact that the competition doesn't remain the same and follow the same rules year in and year out.
If you look at the big 4 american sports, although there are slight rule changes here and there, in essence the game that is played today is pretty much the same game that was played 20 years ago, and will be the same game essentially in 20 years.
If you look at the FGC, even games in the same franchise can be completely different then those in the past. SF3 vs SF4 are vastly different animals. Refreshes of the same game (MvC3 vs UMvC3) play very differently as well. Unless you have consistency for long periods of time, competition can never really take root beyond a small but fluid community.
Take Football for instance (world not american) the kid playing a pug in Lisbon, is playing the same game that Pele did. Will league of legends have the same ruleset, and essentially be the same game 20 years from now? The closest thing we have to a legitimate legacy esport at this point is Starcraft 2, because it is so similar to the original (although there are obvious differences).
TLDR
Esports won't be legitimate until they can actually form a legacy, and to do that you need consistency in gametype, rules, etc.
If you look at the big 4 american sports, although there are slight rule changes here and there, in essence the game that is played today is pretty much the same game that was played 20 years ago, and will be the same game essentially in 20 years.
If you look at the FGC, even games in the same franchise can be completely different then those in the past. SF3 vs SF4 are vastly different animals. Refreshes of the same game (MvC3 vs UMvC3) play very differently as well. Unless you have consistency for long periods of time, competition can never really take root beyond a small but fluid community.
Take Football for instance (world not american) the kid playing a pug in Lisbon, is playing the same game that Pele did. Will league of legends have the same ruleset, and essentially be the same game 20 years from now? The closest thing we have to a legitimate legacy esport at this point is Starcraft 2, because it is so similar to the original (although there are obvious differences).
TLDR
Esports won't be legitimate until they can actually form a legacy, and to do that you need consistency in gametype, rules, etc.
Funky Functionality
Member
I left that part out because it's irrelevant to the argument. The issue here is the physicality of "real" sports versus the lack thereof in "e-sports." He would not be competitive in racing due to his lack of physical conditioning. That's the crux of the argument.
Driving sims only prepare you mentally insofar as the racing line/track familiarity are concerned. The "muscle memory" only applies to turn-in and braking points. The real thing is a very different animal. Also, driving sims are the exception here. With a full wheel and pedal setup, your actions driving the sim are similar enough to the real sport to give you an edge over someone who has never driven the circuit in a sim or in real life, but it is not enough to prepare you to be competitive whatsoever.
You obviously could not draw this same comparison when it comes to competitive fighting games and real martial arts, for instance.
haZethew0rld
Member
Why do I have a feeling that those people calling e-sport a real sport have never played any sports for a team or just recreationally.