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[JB1981]

Don't get hung up on resolution numbers. Resolution is important but it's not the only thing to consider. For instance, I'd prefer a TV with deep contrast/black level, good color decoding, good viewing angles and solid refresh rate over the latest and greatest 1080p res TV any day. My Sony XBR 960, while still a little small, kicks every new HDTV's ass in this regard. It's not even a contest. I also highly doubt very many PS3 games will be running at 1080p either.

 

[Raistlin]

I can't see the difference.

I'd look to hear the details on this ...

 

[DaCocoBrova]

It's the size. As someone mentioned previously, you just won't see a difference unless you go way big. My fixed pixel displays are all rather small. The big ones are 1080i.

Furthermore, as was also mentioned, fixed pixel displays look best while at their native resolution, which will never be 1080i. Even 1080p is a waste unless you're going really, really large screen.

This debate is pointless.

 

[Raistlin]

It's the size. As someone mentioned previously, you just won't see a difference unless you go way big. My fixed pixel displays are all rather small. The big ones are 1080i.

Size and viewing distance.

Furthermore, as was also mentioned, fixed pixel displays look best while at their native resolution, which will never be 1080i.

The problem being that few flat panels are actually native 720p. There is scaling occurring in almost all PDP and LCDs.

By the way, ALiS PDP's are interlaced.

 

[Rabid Pancake]

Why can't you use a monitor? My roomate brought down his 360 and plugged it into my Sony PremierPro SDM-P234/B via VGA and it looks fine. Had it running 1360x768 with Oblivion and it didn't have any problems, the native resoultion on my montior is 1920x1200 so it did have to downscale quite a bit also it's a 16:10 monitor, not 16:9 so the image was being streched ever so slightly. Ran the audio out from the optical out into Pioneer VSX-1015TXK and having no problems whatsoever. Actually started to make me think about getting a 360. Like that's ever going to happen.

 

[Last Hope]

I have thought about this a ton from a technical standpoint and I believe that most games will be rendered in 720p for both Xbox 2 and PS3. If you want to get a 720p TV but feel like waiting a few years for the 1080ps to come down in price, I don't think you should necessarily pass up the 720p now since it will probably be the standard for video games for another five years.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Why can't you use a monitor? My roomate brought down his 360 and plugged it into my Sony PremierPro SDM-P234/B via VGA and it looks fine. Had it running 1360x768 with Oblivion and it didn't have any problems, the native resoultion on my montior is 1920x1200 so it did have to downscale quite a bit also it's a 16:10 monitor, not 16:9 so the image was being streched ever so slightly. Ran the audio out from the optical out into Pioneer VSX-1015TXK and having no problems whatsoever. Actually started to make me think about getting a 360. Like that's ever going to happen.

The 360 can look a whole lot better than that. The caveat to using a monitor is that VGA is your only input since there's no digital video output on the 360 (DVI, HDMI etc.). In addition, the gamma is all jacked up when using the 360 VGA cable.

 

[dark10x]

The 360 can look a whole lot better than that. The caveat to using a monitor is that VGA is your only input since there's no digital video output on the 360 (DVI, HDMI etc.). In addition, the gamma is all jacked up when using the 360 VGA cable.

Whether the VGA cable works well for you or not depends entirely upon your TV. You keep pushing that gamma thing as if it is a problem for everyone, but the problem is with your displays (in the fact that you seemingly can't adjust them properly).

I was able to adjust my display to the point where it produces a much nicer image through VGA. I've seen some displays that completely wash out the image, though (including PC monitors), so I know what you mean.

 

[Diablohead]

I use vga mode on my Samsung and the picture is realy great, the screens native res is 1440 x 900 (very good for my pc work) but the 360's 1380 x 768 with screen upscaling is perfectly fine for the game visuals.

 

[Gorey]

(snip) My Sony XBR 960, while still a little small, kicks every new HDTV's ass in this regard. It's not even a contest.(snip)

Still kicking myself for not buying one of these while they were easier to find. The 'new' XBR970 is such a letdown w/out the SFP tube, compared to the 960.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Whether the VGA cable works well for you or not depends entirely upon your TV. You keep pushing that gamma thing as if it is a problem for everyone, but the problem is with your displays (in the fact that you seemingly can't adjust them properly).

I was able to adjust my display to the point where it produces a much nicer image through VGA. I've seen some displays that completely wash out the image, though (including PC monitors), so I know what you mean.

I was talking about monitors in response to a posters question. You're talking about (your) Plasma.

Whether or not your plasma has ways to compensate for the jacked up gamma settings (this is an issue w/ everyone's 360 when used w/ the VGA cable) has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I have a plasma (2 actually) here in the office. If I wasn't so afraid of my 360 suddenly not working, I'd bring it in to test what you're talking about. I'm under the assumption that displays w/ db15 inputs have brightness/contrast control that monitors always have disabled...

 

[dark10x]

I was talking about monitors in response to a posters question. You're talking about (your) Plasma.

Whether or not your plasma has ways to compensate for the jacked up gamma settings (this is an issue w/ everyone's 360 when used w/ the VGA cable) has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I'm sure plenty of monitors do as well, though. Are you saying that you are unable to modify the colors, contrast, brightness, gamma, etc. on your PC monitor?

I've seen a number of TVs that seriously limit your ability to make any adjustments, so I'm aware that it can't be fixed with certain displays, but I'm also certain that this limitation need not apply to all displays. It's also true that the XBOX360 VGA output does not display properly on all displays (for some reason or another). It's one of those "try it and find out" kinda things.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I'm sure plenty of monitors do as well, though. Are you saying that you are unable to modify the colors, contrast, brightness, gamma, etc. on your PC monitor?

I've seen a number of TVs that seriously limit your ability to make any adjustments, so I'm aware that it can't be fixed with certain displays, but I'm also certain that this limitation need not apply to all displays. It's also true that the XBOX360 VGA output does not display properly on all displays (for some reason or another). It's one of those "try it and find out" kinda things.

I didn't mean that. Now that I think about it...

I've tested the 360 on numerous LCD monitors. Each test yielded the same results. When fed a VGA signal from the 360, adjusting the contrast/brightness made no noticeable change in the overall image quality. The gamma setting the 360 defaults to while in VGA 'mode' is simply to high, as changes to the monitor itself do nothing to remedy this.

I'm curious, from a technical standpoint, why this is.

 

[dark10x]

I didn't mean that. Now that I think about it...

I've tested the 360 on numerous LCD monitors. Each test yielded the same results. When fed a VGA signal from the 360, adjusting the contrast/brightness made no noticeable change in the overall image quality. The gamma setting the 360 defaults to while in VGA 'mode' is simply to high, as changes to the monitor itself do nothing to remedy this.

I'm curious, from a technical standpoint, why this is.

That's strange.

I've used it on two plasmas, a CRT monitor, and an LCD. Only the LCD monitor was unable to be properly adjusted. The plasmas in question were my own set as well as a Pioneer and the CRT was a Samsung PC monitor. The LCD was a brand I can't recall right now, but it has been considered to be an excellent display by many.

 

[tahrikmili]

That's because, even with the VGA cable, the 360 was probably designed to be used with TV sets, not desktop LCD monitors.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

That's because, even with the VGA cable, the 360 was probably designed to be used with TV sets, not desktop LCD monitors.

Which is stupid, considering there are monitors in most households. HDTVs on the other hand...

I've used it on two plasmas, a CRT monitor, and an LCD. Only the LCD monitor was unable to be properly adjusted. The plasmas in question were my own set as well as a Pioneer and the CRT was a Samsung PC monitor. The LCD was a brand I can't recall right now, but it has been considered to be an excellent display by many.

Well, I know that using DVI (digital) kills your ability to adjust brightness/contrast. With the PS3 and HDMI, I really hope that they're paying attention to all this and that they give us some IQ control at the dasboard (XMB?).

 

[dark10x]

Well, I know that using DVI (digital) kills your ability to adjust brightness/contrast. With the PS3 and HDMI, I really hope that they're paying attention to all this and that they give us some IQ control at the dasboard (XMB?).

You'd pretty much only be using HDMI with a TV, though...right?

I know my TV actually has a whole lot of additional options available when using HDMI that are disabled when using VGA (inculding individual adjustment of primary colors). Most TVs shouldn't have an issue with adjustment of the picture when using HDMI.

Who's to say PS3 will even have such an issue? The whole gamma thing has been an MS tradition. The XBOX had a very different look depending on the display mode and cables used. I always found it odd.

 

[Bebpo]

after i witnessed the glory that is the 50inch Panasonic Elite running true 1080p content though its insanely sexy set, i'm afraid you can shove your 720p right up the crack of your arse.

Jesus, it's a good job the front of the screen is lamanated, because it took about 20 metric tons of fish paste - full on.

The Elite tv made every other tv in the whole of yodobashi camera look like complete and utter crap.

$10,000 for the Tv, $2000 for the unit it sits on and $500 for the small stand rack thingy...
but god damn, my credit card was twitching like crazy.

Yeah I saw one like that before I left Japan and it did look amazing.

Maybe it'll drop to the reasonable price range in 5 years?.....^^;

 

[dark10x]

Yeah I saw one like that before I left Japan and it did look amazing.

Maybe it'll drop to the reasonable price range in 5 years?.....^^;

I doubt you saw THAT one, as it was just released.

The Pioneer plasmas used at that XBOX lounge last year in Tokyo sold me on the technology, though. Prior to that, I had never even given them a chance...but after seeing them in action, I was blown away (and that was simply a 720p unit).

I can't imagine how nice the 1080p panel must look.

 

[terrene]

720p FTW.

1080p? Not till PS4/XBOX 720, sorry.

 

[qirex]

From a guy who works on HD at Something Awful:

There is so much time spent worrying about resolution of HDTV and what of the umpteen million HDTV resolutions will give you the best picture it's crazy considering that the picture that is heading into there can be one of umpteen million times two formats.

I'm editing in HD right now with some SD footage in the timeline along with HD footage from a Panasonic P2 camera. I'm editing at 1280-720 p at 59.94 fps.

Technically I'm dealing with a DVCPRO HD codec. Swell. Except that it isn't really 1280-720p. It is less than that with the pixels squeezed. When they are streched out they become that. To rip off wikipedia...720p is downsampled from 1280x720 to 960x720, and 1080i is downsampled from 1920x1080 to 1280x1080 for 59.94i.

A lot, a lot, a lot of HD is being shot on DVCPRO HD. So potentially, glorious HD is coming from a 960-720 source.

To top that off, if you have digital cable, they are taking that networked delivered source and compressing the hell out of it to get it to your tv. More blur. More compression artifacts. Imagine what they'll do to 1080p when it starts gobbling bandwidth.

I rendered an uncompressed 720p video today. 8 minutes long. 35 gigs.

It seems that HD is all about transcoding. Just because its final resolution is in the standard, there is no way to think that is the way it started. Lots of changes along the way.

So all the worry about resolution and 1:1 pixel mapping is fine and all but not really that important. I figure it still comes down to the electronics and software in the screen. HD is all about scaling. The better your tv scales, the better off you will be.

I bolded that part at the end but that's really what it's all about. It's also why when people see that $3k Sony XBR in the video store their brain shuts down and they reach for their wallet. It has the best scaler of anything in its category in addition to its good panel and backlight. That's what gives it that "pop" compared to all the others.

 

[Cold-Steel]

From a guy who works on HD at Something Awful:
I bolded that part at the end but that's really what it's all about. It's also why when people see that $3k Sony XBR in the video store their brain shuts down and they reach for their wallet. It has the best scaler of anything in its category in addition to its good panel and backlight. That's what gives it that "pop" compared to all the others.

Question of the day: How to tell which TV scales better?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Faroudja!

 

[Raistlin]

Faroudja!

teh old


Seriously though, their current OEM deinterlacers for DVD players and receviers sucks the big one. Damn macroblocking errors.

It's been years, they need to bring out a new one.

 

[Kleegamefan]

teh old


Seriously though, their current OEM deinterlacers for DVD players and receviers sucks the big one. Damn macroblocking errors.

It's been years, they need to bring out a new one.

Realta HQV ftw

 

[Raistlin]

Realta HQV ftw

Unless you can turn off some of the more complex algorithms (noise reduction, etc), I'm not so sure the current generation chip is the perfect answer for SD games. Too much lag.

 

[Last Hope]

The 360 can look a whole lot better than that. The caveat to using a monitor is that VGA is your only input since there's no digital video output on the 360 (DVI, HDMI etc.). In addition, the gamma is all jacked up when using the 360 VGA cable.

Interesting to hear this. I used to use an x2vga with the Xbox and the picture was dark as hell and the contrast was pretty bad. I had two CRTs at the time. One I had bought just before the Xbox came out was almost using its max brightness to display a nice PC image so there was no way to fix the dark picture of the Xbox. It looked terrible. The other monitor was a Super Bright NEC and that one had the brighness to light up an Xbox picture. The contrast was still bad but the bdrightness was fine at least. I used to switch back and forth from the Xbox to the PC and on the PC, I'd use brighness 38% and on the Xbox, I had to use 68%.

 

[tahrikmili]

Question of the day: How to tell which TV scales better?

Trust your own eyes..

 

[Raistlin]

Trust your own eyes..

Testing scaling isn't all that difficult.

Testing de-interlacing on the other hand, that is a pain-in-the-ass considering all the different (and many times poorly edited) cadences and flaggings out there.

Your eyes will definitely tell you the way (assuming you have good test media) ... it’s simply a time-consuming process.

 

[Vustadumas]

1080p FTW

Yeah, I agree. Go 1080p. Why not get the top of the line if your going to be spending so much cash?

 

[Krypton Zod]

Question of the day: How to tell which TV scales better?

Feed it a crappy source (a regular 480i TV signal, for example) and see if it comes out as passable or disgusting.