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Healthcare isn't a right, it's a commodity!

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teh_pwn said:
To me the red herring is bringing up national healthcare as a means to reduce the cost of health care. Is my assumption incorrect that people want national healthcare to reduce its cost?

The problem is that prescription drug companies profit margins are too high and that they spend way too much on advertising something that shouldn't be advertised. It drives up healthcare cost. Another problem our government and media have supported a scientifically unfounded and unhealthy diet that is way too focused on processed carbohydrates. It's increasing the incidence of cancer, heart disease, obesity, and so many other problems. There is a direct correlation between the rise of obesity and the shift towards processed carb macronutrients in the late 1970s onward.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F04E2D61F3EF934A35754C0A9649C8B63

These are the real issues to reduce cost. Regulation and prevention.

My point with Germany/China was that taking a cocktail of aspects of various governments and then compare them to the United States is really an invalid comparison. There's so many variables.

Thing is teh_pwn is that prescription medicine is an integral part of healthcare. If you treat healthcare as a commodity that should be dictated by the free market economy then that holds true for medication as well. Which means corportaitons maximising profit for shareholders, which is done through advertisment.

Once you start thinking of healthcare as something that isn't well served by market economics then you have the ability to regulate and legislate. I just don't see how you can do that in the States with the free market is perfect for everything mantra that seems to be so ingrained for you guys.
 
Azih said:
Thing is teh_pwn is that prescription medicine is an integral part of healthcare. If you treat healthcare as a commodity that should be dictated by the free market economy then that holds true for medication as well. Which means corportaitons maximising profit for shareholders, which is done through advertisment.

Once you start thinking of healthcare as something that isn't well served by market economics then you have the ability to regulate and legislate. I just don't see how you can do that in the States with the free market is perfect for everything mantra that seems to be so ingrained for you guys.

The US government regulates utilities, but I don't believe the government pays everyone for their own utility bills.
 
Instigator said:
Reducing costs is the side benefit, for people already with health insurrance in the US. But the real issue is universal coverage, for those tens of millions of Americans somehow not covered. They're the ones getting the raw deal in all of this and the ones who would most benefit from real public healthcare.

There are many differences between countries around the world, but it's a step in the right direction to compare Western countries with each other, countries with similar standards of living and wealth.

Ah, okay. I support it for children, but for adults I think we differ on principles. As The Experiment mentioned earlier, if we can weed out the high cost from preventable diseases with a healthcare tax on certain foods/substances, then I'd support universal healthcare. But I don't think the government is going to tax the right foods, given their history of supporting processed grains and soy products.

For example, I think the US government is artificially making sugar more expensive than high fructose corn syrup, and healthwise the former is much more preferable.

Another example is when the FDA promoted soy, despite internal opposition from their scientists citing that soy is clearly estrogenic and bad for men, and that constant consumption is bad for the thyroid.
 
Gruco said:
This is the first time I'ver ever heard anyone suggest that a governement-fundeed insurance system would be more burdensome on small business the current employer-based system I'd be very interested in hearing your rationale.

Go take a look at what Massachusetts did last year and who got stuck with the bill.

Then take a look at how over budget it already is before its even been implemented.
 
I think we agree on things to a fair degree the_pwn it's just I have no experience with the kind of things you're mentioning as they're just not a factor where I am.
 
How can healthcare costs be cut by lowering the salary of doctors? Which is a rediculous idea. Or people can see PS-C's and NPs also we could tax fatty foods and such.
 
JayDubya said:
600px-Fbs_us_fy2007.png
I'm pretty sure those numbers don't include our costs for the George's Excellent Middle-Eastern Adventure (i.e. they're worthless)
 
One thing I dont understand about america.

If you pay taxes, how come you dont get state healthcare like the NHS here in the UK? Where does the money go?
 
The massachusetts health system is based on everything going right and was not very well thought out especially fining businesses who don't join up and its dependent on federal money.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/04/13/joy_worries_on_healthcare/

The only way to get universal healthcare system in America is to cut costs no waits for operations and freedom of choice to choose which doctor while making sure you don't cap revenue/salaries on employees relating to health care businesses.

No way waiting six months for an operation will fly with Americans, even Canada's supreme court realized that was stupid.
 
kammy said:
One thing I dont understand about america.

If you pay taxes, how come you dont get state healthcare like the NHS here in the UK? Where does the money go?

To huge, inflated, entitlement programs. That chart that JayDub posted gives you an idea of where it goes.
 
ronito said:
For as much as you guy are whining about healtcare killing economic growth you overlook the fact that healthcare is causing costs for our companies to skyrocket. The US is having a hard enogh time keeping jobs and business footing the bill for something other countries pay for isn't helping and will not help.

Right, but the flip side of that is companies will be relieved of that financial burden...who gets hurt? The american worker. Now they will no longer have the mostly decent to good employer-provided healthcare and will either have to pay out of pocket for better service or accept the low level of shit service the national Healthcare plan will provide (if you think national healthcare will be anything other than a step above barbaric, you are kidding yourselves)
 
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
I'm pretty sure those numbers don't include our costs for the George's Excellent Middle-Eastern Adventure (i.e. they're worthless)

250 billion in interest payments is suspiciously low for a debt of 8,5 trillions. It's like only 3 or 4 % of that debt. Something doesn't add up...
 
Enron said:
(if you think national healthcare will be anything other than a step above barbaric, you are kidding yourselves)
I dunno, other nations can get it done. I'm sure American know how and can do attitude can achieve, if not surpass, what other countries have accomplished.
 
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
I'm pretty sure those numbers don't include our costs for the George's Excellent Middle-Eastern Adventure (i.e. they're worthless)

U.S. costs for the Iraq war are likely to exceed $110 billion in the 12-month period that ends in September, approaching the record reached in the 2006 fiscal year, a top White House official said on Tuesday.


LINK


In other words, 1/10 the cost of the entitlements.
 
Azih said:
I dunno, other nations can get it done. I'm sure American know how and can do attitude can achieve, if not surpass, what other countries have accomplished.

I get the feeling Enron doesn't believe in America.
 
Azih said:
I dunno, other nations can get it done. I'm sure American know how and can do attitude can achieve, if not surpass, what other countries have accomplished.

Thats a nice sentiment, but costs have forced those other countries to try and reign in costs like the UK and its NHS system.
 
Triumph Dolomite 1300cc said:
I'm pretty sure those numbers don't include our costs for the George's Excellent Middle-Eastern Adventure (i.e. they're worthless)
siamese beat me to it, but that's correct. The war is funded seperately from the amount listed in the budget. It's convenient to keep from scaring people when they realize the military gets more money than almost anything else in the budget, and it's mostly benefitting a small fraction of the population.

The military is run like a mini socialist government within a government. Yet no one says a damn thing about it. All this anti-socialist rhetoric, but an army composed of ~1-2% of the the population, sucks up as much as social security that supports a much, much larger percentage of the population (and eventually 100% over time). The hypocrisy is overwhelming. PEACE.
 
Ripclawe said:
Thats a nice sentiment, but costs have forced those other countries to try and reign in costs like the UK and its NHS system.
Hey I'm not saying AT ALL that any country in the world has a perfect healthcare system. There was a survey I read about once that said that overall the citizens in every western country were dissatisfied with their healthcare system.

What I am saying though is that the sentiment that National Health Care Systems can't be anything but 'one step above barabaric' are completely unfounded. Which is the comment that I was responding to.
 
Azih said:
I dunno, other nations can get it done. I'm sure American know how and can do attitude can achieve, if not surpass, what other countries have accomplished.

Other nations don't have the population we have, either. Or the socioeconomic dynamics we have. Comparing national healthcare in sweden to what the united states COULD have isn't valid.

If you want to get an inkling of how a National Healthcare program would fly in the US, just study any one of a number of government programs in the US. Huge, levels of beauracracy 40 miles thick, waste and inefficiency are the order of the day.

That comment ISN'T unfounded. I've seen it in action up close and personal for nearly two years as a federal employee in a DOT agency from '03-'05.
 
Enron said:
Other nations don't have the population we have, either. Or the socioeconomic dynamics we have. Comparing national healthcare in sweden to what the united states COULD have isn't valid.

If you want to get an inkling of how a National Healthcare program would fly in the US, just study any one of a number of government programs in the US. Huge, levels of beauracracy 40 miles thick, waste and inefficiency are the order of the day.

That comment ISN'T unfounded. I've seen it in action up close and personal for nearly two years as a federal employee in a DOT agency from '03-'05.

You could view the European Union as an entity like the US but with states running their own and separate public healthcare. I'm unsure about the state of healthcare in the former Eastern bloc which has since joined the EU, but all Western European countries basically have their own system. That's 250+ million people covered.

You don't have to have the federal government running it all...
 
siamesedreamer said:
But, a fully government funded system like in other countries is a terrible idea. Small businesses would be stuck funding it and economic growth would cease to exist.

Wait, wait, What? Maybe on opposites day.


The real effect of a gov't funded system would be to take businesses (both big and small) out the business of having to provide healthcare to their employees, which they definitely would enjoy as it is a tremendous burden on them and is currently offsetting low taxes for US busines competiveness.
 
We have provinces running healthcare in Canada. BUT the federal government mandates that the amount of healthcare recieved should be roughly equivalent in all provinces. Otherwise everybody would move to the well off provinces that can provide better healthcare.
 
I was reading somewhere that except for Switzerland, the US pays more for health care per person than any other nation on the planet. Thats right, not only is health care provided to everyone in socialized health care nations, its cheaper too.

The health care system in the US is bloated and inefficient, the very basis of why we were to reject socialized care. We have corporations that spend more money on advertising than actual care and corporations that raise the prices of medicine just because.

Think about it. Would it be better to give a simple checkup and some medicine that will cost $100 or paying for a $20,000 surgery because the patient couldn't afford it? With the NHS (I'll just use that term from now on), people will be more apt to get problems taken care of quickly rather than let it build up into a worse, and more expensive, mess.

The only reason why we don't have NHS services is because phamaceuticals are rolling in cash. Its a $500+ billion a year industry. Not surprisingly, legislation keeps getting passed to cut down on over the counter products like vitamins. What makes you think that we are a nation of individualism and personal responsibility? How does fighting against multivitamins count as personal responsibility?

The personal responsibility excuse we hear is a crock. There is too much good money to be had draining people's savings accounts with private care.
 
mamacint said:
Wait, wait, What? Maybe on opposites day.


The real effect of a gov't funded system would be to take businesses (both big and small) out the business of having to provide healthcare to their employees, which they definitely would enjoy as it is a tremendous burden on them and is currently offsetting low taxes for US busines competiveness.

The government gets the money to pay for this healthcare from where?

With the NHS (I'll just use that term from now on), people will be more apt to get problems taken care of quickly rather than let it build up into a worse, and more expensive, mess.

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topi...=126005&version=1&template_id=38&parent_id=20

CAESAREANS for women who are “too posh to push” should be restricted to help tackle the NHS financial crisis, says a leading public health chief.

Dr Tim Crayford, president of the Association of Directors of Public Health, suggested the money would be better spent on treatments such as cancer care.

He believes that cash problems faced by many health trusts, which saw the National Health Service (NHS) plunge into an overall deficit of more than ÂŁ500mn last year, highlighted the need to re-examine how funds are spent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6234523.stm

NHS waiting lists in England have fallen to an all-time low according to Department of Health figures.

Between October and November 2006, NHS inpatient waiting lists dropped by 8,000 to 769,000.

More than three quarters of inpatients had waited less than 13 weeks, and the median waiting time of those still waiting at the end of November 2006 was 6.9 weeks.

For outpatients, 86.9% had waited under eight weeks, and the median waiting time of those still waiting was 3.6 weeks.

Mr Lamb also said the government was buying operations in from the private sector to help hit its targets, something he predicted was not sustainable.

He said: "With next year's slowdown in NHS spending and the forecast of hospitals cutting doctors' posts, there is a real danger that waiting times will start to go up again."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6327427,00.html


The NHS could save almost ÂŁ1 billion a year and free 13,000 beds in England alone if action was taken to stop patients staying in hospital too long, according to a new report.

Around 60 beds in an average acute hospital are taken up by patients who could have returned home, said the report from the left-of-centre thinktank the Institute for Public Policy Research.

Getting patients out of hospital quicker would allow some of the extra bed space to be used to cut waiting lists, while other beds could be closed and the money saved be put towards improving healthcare elsewhere in the system.

And shortening stays would reduce the risk of patients picking up hospital superbugs like MRSA, as well as allowing them to recuperate at home among their families.


Sounds nice.

The only reason why we don't have NHS services is because phamaceuticals are rolling in cash.

The big drug companies would love to have NHS over here.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,1947280,00.html
The White House is lobbying British ministers to allow the world's main drug companies unrestricted access to the NHS as part of a package of free market reforms for the service. The US government is positioning itself behind the giant pharmaceutical firms, predominantly based in America, which have been piling pressure on the body that approves drugs for use in hospitals and for prescription by GPs.

The White House arguments will increase the mounting pressure on Nice, which is regularly castigated by patient groups and drug companies when it rejects a new medicine from use in the NHS on cost grounds.

Recently there was an outcry over its ruling that new drugs for Alzheimers should be given only to those with moderate disease, and yesterday cancer charities objected to its preliminary ruling that a new drug, Tarceva, for lung cancer, should not be used in the NHS. Ministers have been directly lobbied by drug companies arguing that its decisions are ill-founded and inappropriate.
 
mamacint said:
Wait, wait, What? Maybe on opposites day.


The real effect of a gov't funded system would be to take businesses (both big and small) out the business of having to provide healthcare to their employees, which they definitely would enjoy and which is currently offsetting low taxes for US busines competiveness.

Well, businesses, just like working individuals, would still pay for public healthcare through their taxes owed to the government. But if the system is run at least as well as in most countries with public healthcare, it would still be less money that is currently spent.
 
Ripclawe said:
The government gets the money to pay for this healthcare from where?

By paying taxes that everyone else in the country is expected to pay, and that should be kept roughly in line with the countries that they are competing with, unlike now where they have to pay fees to HMOs that are much great than what they would have pay (and pay their employees) in order to pay for the new taxes to make up for the new health care taxes.
 
By the way:

FUN FACT!!!

Do you know that the US gov't already pays more per capita on health-care programs than other G8 countries that have Full National Heatlh Care Programs.


INEFFICIENCY? FREEDOMEFFICIENCY!!!
 
I love how opponents to public healthcare admit there's a problem in the US, yet will argue against everything in order not to solve it. They want the status quo in all but name.

Countries who already have public healthcare run it with varying degrees of success. Some run into problems, but they are much more flexible to tweak and adapt to challenging circumstances. The US is remarkably powerless to do anything in this respect (for reasons already well known). It seems as if you can not drop bombs at a problem, it's hopeless... :D
 
mamacint said:
By the way:

FUN FACT!!!

Do you know that the US gov't already pays more per capita on health-care programs than other G8 countries that have Full National Heatlh Care Programs.


INEFFICIENCY? FREEDOMEFFICIENCY!!!

I already posted that.

Anyway, the answer Ripclawe is that most of these nations offer both public and private. If you get kicked out of the public hospital and still need more, then you go to private. Only socialist nations and I think Canada only have public.
 
The Experiment said:
I already posted that.

Anyway, the answer Ripclawe is that most of these nations offer both public and private. If you get kicked out of the public hospital and still need more, then you go to private. Only socialist nations and I think Canada only have public.

Sorry, I left a crucial word ('gov't) out of my original post (I edited it), but it's true that the US gov't already spends more on healthcare (if spread across the whole population) than most other G8 countries with national health care systems. It's that ****ed up.



Here we go:
health_spending_countries.jpg
 
mamacint said:
By paying taxes that everyone else in the country is expected to pay, and that should be kept roughly in line with the countries that they are competing with, unlike now where they have to pay fees to HMOs that are much great than what they would have pay (and pay their employees) in order to pay for the new taxes to make up for the new health care taxes.

You're assuming that all private health insurance would be dropped in favor of the new universal system. That's a bad assumption.

So, not only would companies continue to pay for the private insurance, they would also be tagged with some tax per employee. As an example, if you take the MA tax of ~$300 per employee, you're starting to talk serious money for companies like GM with 300,000 employees (that's $90,000,000 for those counting at home).
 
siamesedreamer said:
You're assuming that all private health insurance would be dropped in favor of the new universal system. That's a bad assumption.

So, not only would companies continue to pay for the private insurance, they would also be tagged with some tax per employee. As an example, if you take the MA tax of ~$300 per employee, you're starting to talk serious money for companies like GM with 300,000 employees (that's $90,000,000 for those counting at home).



http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34899-2004Mar5?language=printer

A Heftier Dose To Swallow
Rising Cost of Health Care in U.S. Gives Other Developed Countries an Edge in Keeping Jobs

By Kirstin Downey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, March 6, 2004; Page E01

For each mid-size car DaimlerChrysler AG builds at one of its U.S. plants, the company pays about $1,300 to cover employee health care costs -- more than twice the cost of the sheet metal in the vehicle. When it builds an identical car across the border in Canada, the health care cost is negligible.

In the battle for manufacturing jobs, the United States has always been at a disadvantage compared with underdeveloped countries where wages are low. But the rapidly rising cost of health care in the United States means that even developed countries sometimes have an edge when it comes to keeping jobs, according to interviews with dozens of corporate executives, legislators and health care consultants.

The United States has lost nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs since July 2001, with 43 consecutive months of manufacturing-employment decline, from about 17.3 million jobs to about 14.3 million in February 2004. During the same period, the manufacturing workforce in Canada has generally remained stable, at about 2 million jobs, even though the unemployment rate is higher there, at 7.4 percent, than in the United States, where it is 5.6 percent.

And, although both nations lost auto manufacturing jobs in 2000 and 2003, the decline was only 4 percent in Canada, compared with 14 percent in the United States.

Jim Stanford, an economist with the Canadian Auto Workers union, said employers who could operate in either country save $4 per hour per worker by choosing Canada. "That's a reasonably significant differential. . . . It's one of the reasons Canada's auto industry has done a lot better," he said.

In a joint letter circulated in Canada in November 2002, officials from Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and DaimlerChrysler said "the public health system significantly reduces total labour costs . . . compared to the cost of equivalent private health insurance services purchased by U.S.-based automakers."

High health care costs have "created a competitive gap that's driving investment decisions away from the U.S.," Ford Vice Chairman Allan Gilmour said in a speech at a recent auto industry conference. "If we cannot get our arms around this issue as a nation, our manufacturing base and many of our other businesses are in danger," he said, according to a transcript of the speech.

Gilmour, who is leading a Ford study of health care, said it may be necessary to prod government officials to consider policy changes to reduce health care costs, although he declined to specify what changes should be made. "I do know that significant reform is necessary," he said. "Right now the country is on an unsustainable track and it won't get any better until we begin -- business, labor and government in partnership -- to make a pact for reform."

But while the Big Three automakers told Canadians that their nationalized health insurance system helped preserve jobs, and lobbied the Canadian government last year to maintain the program, their corporate executives are not willing to go that far when it comes to health care in the United States.

Business trade groups here advocate small steps, such as helping workers care for themselves better, urging them to stop smoking and lose weight, and shifting costs to employees. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, for example, backs such proposals as tort reform, electronic prescription writing and providing better information on the quality of care by doctors and hospitals.

The Bush administration has proposed some targeted efforts to help individuals pay for their care, through tax credits and health care spending accounts that officials say would lower taxes and help people pay for health care.

Most of Bush's Democratic opponents for president would like to see more aggressive governmental action, ranging from Sen. John F. Kerry's (D-Mass.) plan to expand care for poor children and create a federal insurance pool to help employers pay for catastrophic care to Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich's (D-Ohio) proposal for a universal, single-payer system that would cut costs by eliminating insurance company paperwork.

Manufacturers outside the auto industry are also concerned about health care costs and employment.

"We can't just continue to shift jobs out of the United States, not just manufacturing jobs, but all kinds of jobs, and health care is playing a role," said William A. Rainville, chief executive of Kadant Inc., a Massachusetts-based manufacturer of papermaking equipment. "It's like we're in a stream with no control over it."

Rainville said his company will spend about $6,500 on health care for each of its 525 U.S.-based employees this year, while health care costs for its 45 Canada-based workers are minimal. "Our U.S. workers are the most productive, but it doesn't make up for the health care," he said.

Rainville said he has considered moving production to Canada. "As an American it concerns me, but as a businessman, I don't have much of a choice. You need to do what's right for the business."

The cost difference is striking. Employers in Canada pay only about $50 a month, or $600 a year, mostly for optional items such as eyeglasses and orthopedic shoes, said Elaine Bernard, executive director of the labor and worklife program at Harvard Law School. "Health care is significantly cheaper for corporations in Canada," she said. U.S. employers pay more than 10 times as much -- an average $552 a month per employee for health insurance, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

In the United States, General Motors spent $4.5 billion on health care last year for its 1.2 million American workers and retirees, at a cost of about $1,200 per car, said Tom Wickham, a GM spokesman. Ford spent $2.8 billion last year on health care, a Ford spokeswoman said. DaimlerChrysler spent $1.4 billion on health care for its 97,000 U.S. workers and 107,000 retirees last year, for an average cost of $1,300 per mid-range car priced at $18,600, said Thomas J. Hadrych, the company's vice president of compensation, benefits and corporate services. "The reality is it is a significant cost element we struggle with on a year-over-year basis," Hadrych said.

Meanwhile, the number of people insured by their employers is shrinking, which means that employers who continue to pay for employee health care must pay more. Employer health care costs rose 12 percent in the past year, on top of a 16 percent increase the previous year, according to Towers, Perrin, Forster & Crosby Inc., a human resources consulting firm.

"This is the seventh straight year of double-digit price inflation," said Helen Darling, a former Xerox Corp. executive who heads the National Business Group on Health, an association of 182 companies. "Prices started climbing in the bubble economy, but companies then were making a lot of money, everybody was living like they made a lot of money," and the escalation was relatively unnoticed at first, she said.

After the economy began to slump, however, executives began to worry. They shifted some of the growing cost to employees by raising insurance premiums and co-payments. Other companies have stopped offering health insurance or have raised premiums so high that some workers can't afford them.

Most other industrialized countries -- Canada, Japan and those in Europe -- have government-funded health care systems with universal coverage. Canadians, for example, pay higher income taxes and a 15 percent sales tax to support the nationalized health care system.

"Suffice it to say Canada and Germany have a socialized form of health care" that delivers quality care at a lower cost for a larger number of people, without placing all the expense on employers, said Hadrych, of DaimlerChrysler. "The burden of it falls on the government, not just on employers," he said. In the United States, "we carry the full brunt of it."

Hadrych said political pressure on the health care system a decade ago, when the Clinton administration proposed changes, helped keep prices down for several years, but when the political pressure eased, companies began increasing their prices again. He said he believed the country was moving toward what he called a "more comprehensive" solution to the problem in 2001, but that the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks diverted everyone's attention.

"Prior to 9/11, we saw a lot of interest on the Hill with respect to the health care issues," he said. "After 9/11, it all shifted," and, he said, momentum for a bigger solution was "not there."

"A lot of people think a single-payer system is better," he said.
 
Instigator said:
Well, businesses, just like working individuals, would still pay for public healthcare through their taxes owed to the government. But if the system is run at least as well as in most countries with public healthcare, it would still be less money that is currently spent.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha, first time in quite a while I've seen someone claim that federal government is more efficent then the free market.

terrene said:
"The Management," huh? I was thinking more like "Randroid with no grasp on reality."

Thank you Hitler-luva with no grasp of reality.
 
FINALFANTASYDOG said:
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha, first time in quite a while I've seen someone claim that federal government is more efficent then the free market.

As far as public healthcare goes, the government (not necessarily federal) is in most cases much more cost-efficient than a totally free market healthcare system. It's a fact. Just look at a few replies before mine. :)
 
Isn't San Francisco moving to a universal health care system? I guess we could all see how well it works there...
 
Last time I checked, it was illegal for you to purchase an MRI scan in Canada, but you could go to the vet and get one for your dog.

I've also read that because of lines and waiting, due to the inefficincies of a bureaucratic health care system, people must wait months for the tests needed to diagnose cancer. I don't think I would need to explain why that is particularly bad.

As always, feel free to inform me otherwise if I am mistaken.
 
Okin said:
I've also read that because of lines and waiting, due to the inefficincies of a bureaucratic health care system, people must wait months for the tests needed to diagnose cancer. I don't think I would need to explain why that is particularly bad.

I've had 13 MRIs since November of 2004.

I can't imagine how long it would take to get a similar number of MRIs under Canada's system. A decade?
 
There's more to life expectancy numbers than just quality of healthcare. There are population differences that confound those numbers. The US philosophy on end of life care tends to be different than other countries, so that accounts for some of the differential in expenditure. As for differences in quality of healthcare, if you look at some of the clinical research available, a lot of times, site of treatment is a significant factor. That means that where you go to get care can have a huge difference on your outcome. And it isn't always where you'd expect it. Some of the most reknowned academic hospitals in the US have ranked near the bottom in certain measures in the past. Fortunately, they tend to be pretty receptive to making changes.
 
Okin said:
I've also read that because of lines and waiting, due to the inefficincies of a bureaucratic health care system, people must wait months for the tests needed to diagnose cancer. I don't think I would need to explain why that is particularly bad.
It probably has something to do with the number of patients more than inefficiency.

That is bad because you have to wait for the results, and in worst case get a delayed treatment. The good is people that never would have gotten scanned is getting scanned.
 
Just a few comments.

The
Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
than the Canadians do on health care and in terms of per capita spending, including private expenditures Americans lead the world.

I think the problem is how the spending is done. I believe there's a basic service a government should provide to its citizens which is to give them access to preventative care for free. This is what the US is failing to do.

With regards to expense, unfortunately, the US ends up subsidizing the world's health care costs. Drugs introduced are more expensive in the US because most drug companies treat it is a free for all market in which they can recoup significant amounts of their R&D before the drugs are cashcowed overseas.

The disparity between US/Canadian drug prices isn't due to superior Canadian drug policy, its just because the US as a market is willing and able to bear the cost of outrageous drug prices.
 
How many of you all have looked at how your city is funded and how it uses this money?

The cities around it?

This to me is a important element. You can not just jump up to the WHOLE United States and say this would be a good idea, because other countries have done it. That is illogical.
Balance the books at the statehood level. Then start working on programs that affect the 300 million people here.
 
JayDubya said:
Cork it, bleeding heart. You kept calling me conservative, which was wrong, and now Randroid? Please.
It doesn't really matter if you object to these labels, because they're true. Sorry. Also, you're not smart enough to skate by on these types of threads telling people to "cork it." Sure, it sounds punchy (if a bit "You Can't Do That On Television"), but typically it's embedded in a fairly facile block of text, such as the following:

I have a very firm grasp on reality. I also don't try to justify feel-good populist legislation because I think it's wrong. It's tyranny of the majority bullshit, the type our Republic and our checks and balances were supposed to protect our nation from.
No, you try to justify the dismantling of the federal government and important social programs that help keep people who are walking the razor edge of utter desolation from falling off. Ergo, you have no grasp on reality.

Health care is a business, a service industry, not a right. Emergency healthcare is arguably a neccessity, but then again, that's what they make payment plans and charity for.

My perception on reality is what you'd probably call callous, but lucky me that I don't give a damn what you think.
You do, obviously. And by the way, these viewpoints make you both conservative and a Randroid. If you didn't care that I thought so, you probably would've have written such a stupid, hyped up, snippy little reply.

Achem. Puppies are cute, and ice cream is yummy. The end.
Again, not smart enough to pull it off. So don't try. In your case, I'd say self-referential posts are like 5 years and a lot of soul searching away.
 
Just the other day, I was in the orthopaedic clinic here, and they were seeing this guy who had been shot like 7 times. So at one point, we find out that the patient has already had over 300,000 dollars worth of surgeries and has no insurance. Plus he wants them to do a procedure that will cost $20,000. So the attending doc laughs and says, well what's another 20,000 dollars.
 
terrene said:
It doesn't really matter if you object to these labels, because they're true. Sorry. Also, you're not smart enough to skate by on these types of threads telling people to "cork it." Sure, it sounds punchy (if a bit "You Can't Do That On Television"), but typically it's embedded in a fairly facile block of text, such as the following:

False. If you don't like Ayn Rand, and you're not an objectivist, you're not a Randroid. If you believe in maximum civil rights with your own property and your own body (see also: drugs, prostitution) you're not a conservative, only in my case I'm also not a "progressive." You keep questioning my intelligence and maturity, but honestly, attacking someone on that level for having a dissenting or minority opinion is entirely juvenile and begs the same question of yourself. You must realize this, however you must also realize that since you hold the majority opinion, no one else is going to call you on your shit.

No, you try to justify the dismantling of the federal government and important social programs that help keep people who are walking the razor edge of utter desolation from falling off. Ergo, you have no grasp on reality.

Perhaps I value principles more. Or perhaps I don't give a damn. From your perspective, it doesn't really matter, so pick one. And yet again, you're implying that people that don't agree with you don't have a grasp on reality. The implication here is that in your infinite smugness you think so highly of yourself that clearly, if someone doesn't agree with your perspective, "They just don't get it. Perhaps if they were smarter or more well-informed, they would see things my way." Petty, juvenile, and extremely poor debate form.

I don't know about your intelligence level or your grasp of reality, so I can't speak for them. At the end of the day, you think people that believe as I do are wrong and callous, and I think that people that believe as you do with your (at least presumably) well-meaning utilitarian and collectivist perspective do more harm.

You do, obviously. And by the way, these viewpoints make you both conservative and a Randroid. If you didn't care that I thought so, you probably would've have written such a stupid, hyped up, snippy little reply.

You made a false claim, so I felt the need to repudiate it. In the meantime, you're the one hung up on me posting your insipid "Management, huh?" in a thread in which I was content to make one joke and bail. We had two other threads just like this one open at the same time.

Almost none of this has anything to do with the topic, so if you want to snipe at me, take it to tells. Unless you just want to nakedly troll.
 
JayDubya said:
False. If you don't like Ayn Rand, and you're not an objectivist, you're not a Randroid. If you believe in maximum civil rights with your own property and your own body (see also: drugs, prostitution) you're not a conservative, only in my case I'm also not a "progressive." You keep questioning my intelligence and maturity, but honestly, attacking someone on that level for having a dissenting or minority opinion is entirely juvenile and begs the same question of yourself. You must realize this, however you must also realize that since you hold the majority opinion, no one else is going to call you on your shit.



Perhaps I value principles more. Or perhaps I don't give a damn. From your perspective, it doesn't really matter, so pick one. And yet again, you're implying that people that don't agree with you don't have a grasp on reality. The implication here is that in your infinite smugness you think so highly of yourself that clearly, if someone doesn't agree with your perspective, "They just don't get it. Perhaps if they were smarter or more well-informed, they would see things my way." Petty, juvenile, and extremely poor debate form.

I don't know about your intelligence level or your grasp of reality, so I can't speak for them. At the end of the day, you think people that believe as I do are wrong and callous, and I think that people that believe as you do with your (at least presumably) well-meaning utilitarian and collectivist perspective do more harm.



You made a false claim, so I felt the need to repudiate it. In the meantime, you're the one hung up on me posting your insipid "Management, huh?" in a thread in which I was content to make one joke and bail. We had two other threads just like this one open at the same time.

Almost none of this has anything to do with the topic, so if you want to snipe at me, take it to tells. Unless you just want to nakedly troll.
Seriously, I could do a line-by-line here, but I see nothing that substantively repudiates any of my points:

1) You subscribe to alternately Randian/conservative philosophies and attitudes on the topics of both the federal government and the role of social welfare. "I value principles/maximum civil rights with my property more than social welfare" -- you gratingly dress this up as unique to you. It isn't.
2) You "give a damn" what I think. If you "felt the need" (as you say) to reply, it counts. Hell, I think if I were to print out all the crap you've written in reply to me just this week it would be a 10 page document. Much like your proclamations that you are not Randian in your way of thinking, wishing for something does not make it so.

Oh, pro-tip. It's not because you hold the "minority opinion" that I'm saying that you aren't bright enough to pull off the "so-right-I'm-allowed-to-be-dismissive" posts you try to pull off (and it's not because you disagree with me that you're myopic). Again you flatter yourself and your grasp on reality. No, that criticism is uniquely yours - not one that can be bestowed on APF, ToxicAdam, siamesedreamer or any of the other poor lonely conservatives, of which you are one. They're all good enough to live well within their means - some of which are quite impressive (APF is a smart guy). As for you? Ayn would be offended at the charity you ask of others when you insist on being taken seriously.
 
terrene said:
Seriously, I could do a line-by-line here, but I see nothing that substantively repudiates any of my points

Finally, a statement I can agree with, if not the direction its aimed.

All I see is unsubstantiated bullshit and persistant namecalling. With posts like the above, I may as well call you a stupid doo-doo head and call it a day.

I do not claim to have a unique or special perspective. I do not try to "live beyond my means," but merely state my opinion on topics in a discussion forum.

If that's a problem for you, if I grate so heavily on your weary nerves that you feel the need to follow me from thread to thread hurling your churlish and trollish nonsense, then do be a dear and click here, then type JayDubya, then click "Update Ignore List." Honestly, do you behave like this on other forums?

* * *

Is it at all possible to stop sniping for a second, realize we both like a lot of the same things (be they Smashing Pumpkins or Final Fantasy IV), agree to disagree on politics, and move on? Is there anything more pointless or pathetic than two grown men having a flame war on the internet?

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