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[Mrbob]

Are you actually that jaded?

If that counts as your absurd definition of being jaded, so be it. The best action games from last gen run at 60FPS, because it is important for gameplay to be extremely smooth. There are really two genres I demand 60FPS from, sports games and close combat action games. I guess I'm jaded too for being mad Madden 360 was running at 30FPS with tearing.

The PS3 is supposed to be a monolithic powerhouse, yet two of Sony's top first party titles (REsistance, Heavenly Sword) are now running at 30FPS. Disappointing.

 

[Chiggs]

If there were bitching, it'd be from non-players who just like to argue over framerate numbers.

So 75% of GAF?

 

[crunker99]

a steady 30 fps is fine for games, sure 60 is better but its not a must, people put way too much weight on 60 fps

guess what people, the times of 60FPS games standrad are gone, time to face facts

 

[Dahbomb]

Action games without 60+ FPS should be deducted 10% points on reviews. Yes I am serious about this.

 

[DarienA]

I am absolutely shocked that a first gen launch title is not running with blazing full effects at 60fps. This is truly shocking. I imagine that all X360 action launch titles ran at 60fps?

PS3 FTL Next gen am done.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Unless of course you don't care about minor cosmetic features, such as 720p, HDR, anisotropic filtering, AA, and other useless things.

AF :lol That's rarer than the coveted 60fps it would seem. ****ing pathetic.

In all honestly, I really wish they would give us the option to run in 480p @ 60fps versus 720/1080i @ 30fps. Just give us both already!

 

[dark10x]

Locked 30fps will be just fine for the MAJORITY of consumers. That's who the games are aimed at.

I'm so sick of that f*cking attitude.

With 360, I didn't expect many 60 fps titles...that's the Microsoft way (totally XBOX). PS3 though? I was hoping it would follow in the footsteps of its older brother and deliver loads of 60 fps gaming. The fact that all these games I expected to run at 60 are now set to run at 30 pisses me off to no end. Be f*cking honest. If you don't have the ability to hit 60, come out and say so. I don't want more "effects".

Sony themselves pushed out so many 60 fps games last generation in all genres...yet that doesn't seem to be happening here. Very disappointing.

 

[Zombie James]

A solid 30fps is fine. And you have to remember that 30fps is going to be a lot better this generation (progressive) than last generation (interlaced).

 

[firefoxsux]

SSX, gofreak, Zaptruder etc. etc.

I am a big Sony supporter, always was. I am a big Xbox disliker, always was.

But I find the ****ING HYPOCRISY of Sony fans to be VERY ANNOYING.

30 fps game is "enough, good but not great" on PS3 yet "not enough, abysmal performance" on 360?

Please, I call them how I see them and a 30 fps game on PS3 makes me ****ing angry. And I perfectly know that almost every sane dev will take 30 fps + HQ graphics over 60 fps with MQ graphics, I'm not attacking devs just blind supporters.

damage control 30fps is an xbot thing iirc :lol

ken making his fans work harder in this way?

btw HS have no jump move ...

 

[Mrbob]

Actually letting consumers choose would be a nice idea. But not 480P though. Cut down on some of the graphical effects and detail to allow the game to run in 60FPS mode as well.

I'm so sick of that f*cking attitude.

With 360, I didn't expect many 60 fps titles...that's the Microsoft way (totally XBOX). PS3 though? I was hoping it would follow in the footsteps of its older brother and deliver loads of 60 fps gaming. The fact that all these games I expected to run at 60 are now set to run at 30 pisses me off to no end. Be f*cking honest. If you don't have the ability to hit 60, come out and say so. I don't want more "effects".

QFMFT.

 

[Francias Castiglione]

That strikes me as a pretty huge erorr in judgment while creating an engine.

Looking at the lighting engine and the DOF effects makes it seem like AA won't be missed that much.

 

[Version 3.0]

Meh. The demo was all style and no substance. I say work on the gameplay. Who cares about framerate when the game isn't up to par? This game wants to be God(dess) of War, and it isn't even close. (Yet?).

 

[Chiggs]

guess what people, the times of 60FPS games standrad are gone, time to face facts

Just wait until Naughty Dog and Insomniac release their 2nd gen titles that run @ 30fps...it'll probably start to sink in then.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

My issue is that we're forced to pay roughly 40% more for the hardware, games are clocking in @ $60... Yet we, the gamers, haven't benefited from either when you think about it. It's annoying only because it could easily be resolved in most cases.

 

[Borys]

There's no hypocrisy, it sucks that it won't be 60fps. There's no doubt about that, i'd love for it to run at that framerate. The only genres I expect games to run at 60fps are fighting games (like VF) and racing games. Other games I greatly prefer it to run that fast, and its very disappointing if tis not but my anticipation for a game i've been looking forward to for over a year isn't going to drop because I find out its not running at that framerate.

Yeah, of course I won't decide to boycott this title now because it's not 60 fps, but you can say that a part of my... FAITH died today.

Oh well, at least it should be a good game.

 

[TheDuce22]

To give some recent examples, if it makes such a massive ****ing difference why do GRAW and Battlefield 2 look better than CoD 2 in motion. Why does PGR 3 look better than Burnout Revenge in motion. How does Lost Planet look so good?

 

[MrToughPants]

Actually letting consumers choose would be a nice idea. But not 480P though. Cut down on some of the graphical effects and detail to allow the game to run in 60FPS mode as well.



QFMFT.

Wait for the PC port.

 

[CarlosX360]

Whoa. A post about E-mpire's uprising?

I thought there'd be more than 3 staff members from the house that Chris built, and get the word out here. I guess not, eh?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Just wait until Naughty Dog and Insomniac release their 2nd gen titles that run @ 30fps...it'll probably start to sink in then.

Atleast in the case of ND, I fully expect their next gen. They're one of those devs where if you read their interviews they sound like the 60fps fanboys in terms of what they want from their games. I think they want the most technically impressive games and that's just one part of it.

And they're focusing on animation with that jungle game which makes me a very happy camper.

 

[djkimothy]

Why does Gears of War run 30fps with NO AA?

The game must be ruined. :lol

If I recall, the UE3 doesn't play nice with the EDRAM so the free AA is not implremented and may have to be implemented in-engine.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

To give some recent examples, if it makes such a massive ****ing difference why do GRAW and Battlefield 2 look better than CoD 2 in motion. Why does PGR 3 look better than Burnout Revenge in motion. How does Lost Planet look so good?

They don't. Play GRAW for a while, then pop in CoD2. It's smoothness in contrast is jarring, in a good way. It's the very first thing I notice.

Of course PGR3 looks good since it was designed from the ground up for the 360. And they still had to cut corners (resolution). BO:R was a port that got slightly enhanced.

Of course, launch software shouldn't be used as a marker for anything, but it still speaks volumes.

 

[Jim]

My issue is that we're forced to pay roughly 40% more for the hardware, games are clocking in @ $60... Yet we, the gamers, haven't benefited from either when you think about it. It's annoying only because it could easily be resolved in most cases.

I don't understand how a framerate = more bang for your buck. For your extra 40%, maybe the developers can afford 40% more effects, 40% more detailed textures, 40% larger areas, if they scale back to 30fps. It's not like you aren't getting anything.

For example, as much as I wanted Shadow of the Colossus' framerate to be higher, I don't think I would have wanted to have a less detailed, smaller environment, and crappier looking Colossi as a result.

Shesh.. "Framerate Divas" most of you

 

[Chiggs]

If I recall, the UE3 doesn't play nice with the EDRAM so the free AA is not implremented and may have to be implemented in-engine.

Well, it's not like they have to use the eDRAM for AA....

 

[dark10x]

To give some recent examples, if it makes such a massive ****ing difference why do GRAW and Battlefield 2 look better than CoD 2 in motion. Why does PGR 3 look better than Burnout Revenge in motion. How does Lost Planet look so good?

You can't be f*cking serious.

In those cases, it's about animation. GRAW actually animates extremely well while CoD2 is incredibly stiff. GRAW would look a whole lot better at 60 fps, however.

I disagree with the PGR3 dealy. It's more detailed, but I think BOR and Ridge 6 both look a lot nicer in motion. The motion blur in PGR3 almost makes up for it, but it's not quite enough. PGR3 would look a lot more impressive at 60 fps as well.

A game can look great at 30 fps...but it will always look better at 60. 60 fps, however, does not automatically guarantee good animation. Remember that.

 

[Francias Castiglione]

Well, it's not like they have to use the EDRAM for AA....

It isn't even the EDRAM that's the actual problem, because of the way it draws the shadows it means that AA would be applied multiple times on the same edges (or something)

It means that AA will be a hog on every system that UE3 runs on, not just the 360.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

This game looks nice. I'm really excited to see what the God of War team can do with the PS3.

 

[fortified_concept]

SSX, gofreak, Zaptruder etc. etc.

I am a big Sony supporter, always was. I am a big Xbox disliker, always was.

But I find the ****ING HYPOCRISY of Sony fans to be VERY ANNOYING.

30 fps game is "enough, good but not great" on PS3 yet "not enough, abysmal performance" on 360?

Please, I call them how I see them and a 30 fps game on PS3 makes me ****ing angry. And I perfectly know that almost every sane dev will take 30 fps + HQ graphics over 60 fps with MQ graphics, I'm not attacking devs just blind supporters.

You're right in everything to said. I have to admit it's kinda frustrating watching some hardcore 60fps fans defending this stupid STUPID decision.

That said I prefer 30fps than Amir0x's EVIL suggestion for the game to be delayed. Same graphics + 60fps, definately and I bet they can easily do it in a 6 months period. Better graphics + 60fps + delay, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

[Chiggs]

It isn't even the EDRAM that's the actual problem, because of the way it draws the shadows it means that AA would be applied multiple times on the same edges (or something)

It means that AA will be a hog on every system that UE3 runs on, not just the 360.

Yeah, so it's just an engine issue. Kind of like how the first iteration of the Unreal engine used a pathetic sound system which hogged CPU cycles.

This game looks nice. I'm really excited to see what the God of War team can do with the PS3.

NO! GET OUT OF HERE!

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

The whole belief that you have to sacrifice fluidity for better visuals is such bullshit. Using the PS2 as an example, the best looking games also ran @ 60fps. Refute that!

Err, belief? Its simple math. As you increase the amount of processing and effects per frame, the less amount of frames you can render per second. There's no way around this, its merely down to the studios' goals, knowledge and capabilies with a system during a given timeframe.

Personally I consider 60fps a "special effect" in of itself, as it affects visuals as much as anything else graphically. Certain genres Im stricter with than others in regards to framerate. And yeah its sad developers are drifting further away from that standard. But its hardly a deal breaker if the 30 is rock solid and the visuals make up for it in other areas. Fluctuating framerate is a much bigger issue.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I will never understand those that defend 30fps. Makes no sense to me. Again, the best looking PS2 games ran @ 60fps, so there goes the '30fps makes grphx betta!' argument.

Furthermore, fluidity makes a game look much better than a couple useless post processing affects. More importantly, it makes most games 'play' better. Why would anyone argue w/ that?

We pay for this 'high-end' gaming hardware because we expect the best. Right?

Err, belief? Its simple math. As you increase the amount of processing and effects per frame, the less amount of frames you can render per second. There's no way around this, its merely down to the studios' goals, knowledge and capabilies with a system during a given timeframe.

Personally I consider 60fps a "special effect" in of itself, as it affects visuals as much as anything else graphically. And yeah its sad developers are drifting further away from that standard. But its hardly a deal breaker if the 30 is rock solid and the visuals make up for it in other areas. Fluctuating framerate is a much bigger issue.

I know that. Many of us do. However optimization, or the lack there of due to time/budget constraints is the real culprit. In addition, GT4 (even @ faux 1080i), ZOE2, GoW, MGS2... The most technically advanced games on the PS2 are exceptions rather than the rule, but it can be done.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

how can you guys tell the difference between 30 and 60fps?!

 

[Skilotonn]

shit i do. You hear that, Stinkles

Well it no doubt be GREATLY appreciated, but let's just say that since I know they aim to push the visuals like they always do, and the gameplay was perfect at 30 fps twice in a row, it'll work at 30 again...

If they can keep it looking the way it did in the teaser AND get it at 60, that's one hell of a cherry on the top...

I have and it doesn't have any AA, I believe Cliffy confirmed it aswell.

I'd have to see that quote, because as far as I've read, they are pushing for visuals, and everytime they reach a point that the frames increase, they'll up the visuals - I'd imagine that part of that goes into AA as well...

 

[teepo]

WTFFF WRONG THREAD

 

[Chiggs]

Fluctuating framerate is a much bigger issue.

Yes, which is why you're less likely to see "locked down" 60fps games in the future. There's too much stuff to account for nowadays, namely, physics.

 

[Borys]

You're right in everything to said. I have to admit it's kinda frustrating watching some hardcore 60fps fans defending this stupid STUPID decision.

That said I prefer 30fps than Amir0x's EVIL suggestion for the game to be delayed. Same graphics + 60fps, definately and I bet they can easily do it in a 6 months period. Better graphics + 60fps + delay, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Weep with me brother.

Being the little Sony bitches we are we are gonna buy this 30 fps title day one

It better put God of War to damn shame!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Being the little Sony bitches we are we are gonna buy this 30 fps title day one

Yes but we should also support the liquid smooth 60fps Warhawk day 1.

 

[Aryuken]

Uh, 30 FPs is just fine, don't know whats the problem.

And halo 3 being 30 FPS...so what? Halo was allways 30 FPS and only a few forum jaded/haters gamers actually care.

 

[Russ]

I will never understand those that defend 30fps. Makes no sense to me. Again, the best looking PS2 games ran @ 60fps, so there goes the '30fps makes grphx betta!' argument.

I agree, even on Xbox, doesnt Ninja Gaiden and RSC2 ran at 60fps as well.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

^^
Damn right!

If Sony mandated that all launch s/w ran at 60fps, there'd be no doubt in anyone's mind re: the PS3 supposed 'powah'. I was kind of hoping that would be the case. Wishful thinking.

 

[fortified_concept]

Weep with me brother.

Being the little Sony bitches we are we are gonna buy this 30 fps title day one

It better put God of War to damn shame!

I feel your pain.

 

[Chiggs]

Yes but we should also support the liquid smooth 60fps Warhawk day 1.

What about the liquid smooth Resistance: Fall of Man multiplayer? Or can you not stand the thought of playing a game tainted with a 30fps singleplayer experience?

 

[Draft]

$10 per frame second I can tolerate, but $20? Outrageous! Scandalous! Monsterous!

Sony, you sir are a scamp. A hooligan. A ner'do'well. I say good day to you, Sony. A bububu I said GOOD DAY.

 

[Chiggs]

If Sony mandated that all launch s/w ran at 60fps, there'd be no doubt in anyone's mind re: the PS3 supposed 'powah'.

Not if they all looked like Warhawk. ZING!


Note to self/Amirox appeasement: Warhawk has giant, sprawling worlds where I can do whatever I want...Warhawk is like GTA meets Crimson Skies...Warhawk has giant, sprawling worlds where I can do whatever I want...Warhawk is like GTA meets Crimson Skies...Warhawk has giant, sprawling worlds where I can do whatever I want...Warhawk is like GTA meets Crimson Skies...Warhawk has giant, sprawling worlds where I can do whatever I want...Warhawk is like GTA meets Crimson Skies...Warhawk has giant, sprawling worlds where I can do whatever I want...Warhawk is like GTA meets Crimson Skies...

 

[SolidSnakex]

What about the liquid smooth Resistance: Fall of Man multiplayer? Or can you not stand the thought of playing a game tainted with a 30fps singleplayer experience?

I'll support that also. I'm just looking forward to Warhawk more, especially after reading the recent info on it. Alot more ambitious than I thought (at times you'll be fighting again 600+ enemies).

Resistance is suppose to be pretty smooth in single player also despite the 30fps. It seems like TTP was the only one that saw it didn't run at 60fps at E3. Which I guess says alot for how smooth it did run at 30fps.

 

[Chiggs]

Alot more ambitious than I thought (at times you'll be fighting again 600+ enemies).

Holy shit...wow.

 

[Syphin]

so whats the problem?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I know that. Many of us do. However optimization, or the lack there of due to time/budget constraints is the real culprit.

Its also a case of developers having a lot more to juggle now than they did in the PS2 era. Advanced shading algos, physics, AI, lighting engines, etc. And getting these multi-core processors to run in-sync with a high effeciency is going to take a fair amount of teething early on. Right now I imagine its very much brute force without a whole lot of elegance. Hopefully will see framerate targets ramp up a bit as the better houses gain more experience.

 

[Jim]

I'd have to see that quote, because as far as I've read, they are pushing for visuals, and everytime they reach a point that the frames increase, they'll up the visuals - I'd imagine that part of that goes into AA as well...

From last month's interview:

CliffyB: We’re going to have some terrific motion blur and depth of field, but there probably won’t be Full Scene Anti-Aliasing. We’ll do things that’ll give us a similar effect, but again we’re speaking on the engine side of things so it’s not really my department. I’m not a big fan of jaggies though, so we’ll do whatever we can to get rid of those.

And from an interview with Tim Sweeney, from Epic, also from Last Month:

Sweeney: Gears of War runs natively at 1280x720p without multisampling. MSAA performance doesn't scale well to next-generation deferred rendering techniques, which UE3 uses extensively for shadowing, particle systems, and fog.

GOW utilizes UE3, UE3 doesn't support FSAA/MSAA, therefore...

 

[Draft]

Resistance is suppose to be pretty smooth in single player also despite the 30fps. It seems like TTP was the only one that saw it didn't run at 60fps at E3. Which I guess says alot for how smooth it did run at 30fps.

30fps looks like 60fps in 4D, so I don't see what all the crying is about.

 

[PipBoy]

06-11-2004

Yep, games that really don't have full realtime interaction are fine at 30fps. Some developers give into some gamers want for certain visual features even though the sacrifice ends up being the framerate which is never worth it imo.

Last gen it was understandable for games to run under 60fps, there's no real excuse now for fighters, racers and some other genres.