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High school student successfully sues her school to remove a religious prayer banner
- Thread starter Korey
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I'm with you man, it's batshit insane. I went to Catholic School growing up so I'm used to prayers being everywhere, but I have every intention of sending my children to public schools. That said, if the public school had some sort of prayer from any sort of religion or something, I wouldn't give a shit. Who the hell cares? The fact that money and time was wasted on this effort is just baffling. Don't we have better things to worry about?
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Personally, I think the idea of having to look towards a superstitious to grant you your morality rather than finding it within yourself is demeaning to every religious person.
It ostracizes non-religious people and provides a government support for religion. If I have a kid, I'm going to bring it up to think rationally about spiritual issues. I don't need some government entity going against that because some people want to impose superstitions on others for bad reasons.
Because atheism wasn't a driving force for him?
I know he was anti-theistic but I don't think that automatically makes him the leader of a group of militant atheists.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
What if what you're finding within yourself is something planted there by God? That's what Christianity teaches.
Okay, let's start here.
Whether people happen to care or not, do you feel that this is legal and/or constitutional? If you feel it is legal, why? If not, why not?
I agree in the sense that other religious people are doing worse things, like trying to teach "intelligent design" as science, or attempting to ban gay marriage to impose their bigotry on everyone else by force of law.
Is this sarcasm? I can't tell.
!fabricated backlash
Member
Neither should any other sort of magic.
Amibguous Cad
Member
Why is it always the atheists that have to concern themselves with what's really important, or with wasting taxpayer dollars?
If anyone's wasting taxpayers' money, it's the school that knowingly installed decorations that violate the establishment clause of the constitution, and then insist on taking it to court rather than voluntarily complying with the law of the land.
Eh. I'm mildly religious but no problem removing that wall mural thing. Even if it is saying a good message the "grant us" opening pretty much removes any chance of taking it as secular.
I don't know if it's been discussed in this thread (not going to dig through it) but religion should be limited to voluntary clubs, after-school, extra curricular activities. As long as all religions are welcome.
It does open up the "Well does that mean I can make a flying spaghetti monster prayer group?" type questions. I don't have an answer to that. I can't think of an argument to say anything other than yes.
I don't know if it's been discussed in this thread (not going to dig through it) but religion should be limited to voluntary clubs, after-school, extra curricular activities. As long as all religions are welcome.
It does open up the "Well does that mean I can make a flying spaghetti monster prayer group?" type questions. I don't have an answer to that. I can't think of an argument to say anything other than yes.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Then the poster should still offend them because it doesn't jive with that idea.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
As a Christian I see no problem with this. Individuals should be able to rationally decide for themselves whether or not participation in such a group is worthwhile.
I have nothing against atheism, people are certainly free to believe there is no god as people can believe there is one. I take more umbrage with the more prevalent internet belief that most if not all christians are all these awful things they read or see on TV, or entirely incapable of any rational thought. There are many christians that can reconcile their spirituality and faith with science, theory and fact and the physical world.
Me, I try not to sweat the small stuff too much. There are certainly some fights worth fighting, but I think some things just get blown out of proportion (in this case, the high school should have removed the sign with as little press and fanfare as possible). I don't think the girl is wrong here, her worldview is a bit naive in my opinion, and I admittedly doubt the sincerity of her motivation, but I'd doubt her altruism if it was in the name of god, probably even more so.
How is what I said about christians having a history of murdering and raping people embarrassing to you? It is the truth and there are many examples that any person with a high school level education in history could cite.
His government's support for the League of Militant Atheists might, though.
SuperSonic1305
Member
America and it's values were influenced by religion? Time to move countries!
From what I've read in here, not a single person who has said they're religious has any problem with them taking down the mural and putting something else with a good message in it's place. I think she just went about it the completely wrong way and wasted money taking them to court over it. The poster itself can and should be preserved though based solely on how old it is and that it is still there. It's part of the school's history, no matter how many people want to deny that part of it.
It appears to me that most people in here arguing against having the poster in place, skim over the part where this thing has been there for 46+ years. It's part of history, whether you agree with it or not and should be regarded as a stepping stone to where the school is now.
The tone of your post comes across as only "religion" is the sole responsible party to death, rape, and the like. Also, just because something is said to be done in the name of God does not make it his/her/its will. Learn to separate the two and your understanding will grow. It's embarrassing because you vilify the religious and it permeates your posts as there is no fault on anyone else, including non-believers.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
It absolutely does. Christianity teaches that the morals of God are written on the hearts of all men but it is possible for those morals to be ignored, twisted, and altered because of the free will that has been granted us. The poster is essentially asking God to give us a clearer understanding of and a greater alignment with the morals that are inherently within us.
Sorry if this was a little too off-topic but I thought it was worth addressing.
I'll settle for staying here and working to get religion out of publicly funded institutions.
In regards to the "it's no a big deal" style argument:
1) If the banner isn't a big deal, then surely it's not a big deal to take it down, either. Why would the school defend its right to keep the banner up all the way to court if it's "not a big deal?"
2) Or, if it is a big deal to take the banner down, then surely it's also a big deal to have the banner up in the first place.
You can't have it both ways.
1) If the banner isn't a big deal, then surely it's not a big deal to take it down, either. Why would the school defend its right to keep the banner up all the way to court if it's "not a big deal?"
2) Or, if it is a big deal to take the banner down, then surely it's also a big deal to have the banner up in the first place.
You can't have it both ways.
Dude Abides
Banned
Despite your efforts at a righteous edit, the Devil's Apostrophe still lurks within your soul (and post)!
Arrowgigantic
Member
It's not that most, or even 1% of Christians are like that, it's just that there are always some of that kind there whenever this kind of thing happens. Seriously, find a story where somebody stood up for their rights and wasn't harassed and threatened. And are those Christians ever marginalized by the rest? Nope. They are always there.
Because these same atrocities have been commited in the name of every ideal and maxim you can think of, and they were all supposed to be noble pursuits, that were just transparent vehicles for people to attain power and self justification.
Like I've said before, I don't think it's a big deal to keep it up. I don't see it as a legal issue, but more as a history issue. Most schools I went to have sort of "history" cabinet (past awards, class photos, kitsch, etc.). I'm fine with keeping it in there. Banning it outright because it doesn't jive with your belief system (or lack thereof), doesn't make sense to me personally based purely on its historical place in the school's life.
Atheism was merely a tenet of the organization, it didn't encourage any of it's actions or other beliefs as being necessary. Atheism means absolutely nothing beyond a lack of belief.
But I'm still not sure that you could sum up the motives of Stalin as 'wishing to spread atheism'. Unfortunately, I'm simply not equipped with enough relevant knowledge to argue this point.
I must admit, when I saw your post I thought "shit, kinda let myself in for that one".
cutmeamango
Banned
I'm not saying the school democracy supercedes laws, just saying that the need (she had all the rights, and correctly won) to sue is just as important as striking an argument with someone that says "god bless you". And the fact that school proposed two votings and did not appeal to the ruling shows that they respected her position and the subject isn't all that important. That's all.
And yes, I'd be okay with it if the school voted and by any means there was no coercion to participate. If the prayers didn't influenced my actual education in any level, I could not care less actually. There was a Flag Day every mionth at my school, where people sang the national and state anthem, and no one was obliged to sing. I'd treat the prayers with the same apathy.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Exactly. There is little point in attacking the actions of people who claim to follow a certain belief system or creed because anyone can claim to be a follower of anything. What's far more beneficial is to study the belief system itself and attempt to see whether or not the atrocious actions are advocated by its teachings.
Actually religion is the irrational way that people deal with fear of death. Believe there is an afterlife despite no evidence of one because being dead is scary.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Certainly not "sum up the motives of Stalin" but the elimination of religion and the promotion of atheism were part of his motives.
One religion has a banner on the wall and the others do not. How could that make someone with one of those other religions feel? It implicitly signifies one religion, above all others, is deserving of a banner on the waHll at the school. I do not understand why so many here find this so difficult to understand. It is very basic.
Well this is a good point. If I were the school and there was a threat of a lawsuit to take the banner down, I would have just taken the banner down, because as I said, it's just a waste of time and money to bring something like this to court.
At the end of the day I still think it's a "who gives a shit?" scenario. There are just more pressing things to get up in arms about.
Elimination of religion has NOTHING to do with atheism. That word doesn't imply a desire to cause such a thing.
speculawyer
Member
No, they should should not be promoted/endorsed in tax-payer funded public venues like schools.
If I understand it rightly from her blog, the banner had been there since the founding of the school, being written by a pupil at the time. Tradition can be a big thing for a lot of people.
On the other hand, the banner's presence clearly wasn't a big deal because she'd been going to the school for almost a year before noticing its existence, and even then only because it was pointed out to her by somebody else. We're not exactly talking a high profile piece of religious propaganda here, are we?
Of course it can be an asymmetrical situation, because the argument for keeping it is different to the argument for removing it.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Nah dude, it's right in the Atheist's Bible, Austin 3:16 says that all religious people must have their asses whupped. That is what all atheists believe. It's one of the nonmandments brought to them by no one from their Lord, FileNotFound.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
If you're arguing that the USSR didn't strive to eliminate religion, then you're going to lose that argument.
No he's saying that there is a difference between anti-theism and atheism.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Right, I totally understand that most atheists see it that way. Hence, "The God Delusion." What I'm getting at is that I disagree. Again though, way off topic.
Please don't totally misread a KHarvey post. You'll fire him up and he gets me all warm & tingly when he's angry.
So surely it's also not a big deal to take it down?
Arguments from antiquity are invalid.
Traditional habits and behaviors are no more or less correct by virtue of their traditional nature. Again, this is the argument from antiquity logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
I see. But in the case of the USSR, there was a desire to elimate religion and at the same time to promote atheism. That's just a fact.
This is not an argument from antiquity.
It absolutely is. You are saying that this has value because it's traditional.
cutmeamango
Banned
They could have a thousand banners then, just changing the addressed one. That would be funny.
And I get that point, but whoever reads that much into a banner (again, placed in a school that apparently has no theist oriented education) has little to worry about. Very basic too.
But oh well, problems are problems and these problems are hers.
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