"In God We Trust" on our money will be removed within our lifetime. It'll probably be replaced with "E pluribus unum", a much better one.
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High school student successfully sues her school to remove a religious prayer banner
- Thread starter Korey
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"In God We Trust" on our money will be removed within our lifetime. It'll probably be replaced with "E pluribus unum", a much better one.
You don't actually want to watch anything with David Barton, anyway.
The mural is asking God to grant them the desire to:
- to do their best
- grow mentally
- grow morally
- grow physically
- be kind and helpful
- to be honest
- to be good sports
- to teach them the true value of friendship
- to conduct themselves so as to always bring credit to their school
The implication of the request is a belief that students would lack that desire without God's influence. I'm not sure what you're missing; "We are not good without You, God; help us to be good" is basically the entire thrust of the prayer, and indeed of most Christianities.
Count Dookkake
Member
10/10.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
This is already in effect, they must accommodate your religious beliefs, but they aren't allowed to do it publicly and for the whole damn school.
When I was a believer I did get off for 5 hours to go to church one good friday.
Also, the motto on the money wasn't put into effect until around 1953-59(can't be arsed to look up the year) and was brought about by the Knights of Columbus(a big catholic organization).
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
It is certainly not all encompassing. I can tell you that it is nothing at all like a Jewish prayer. I'm pretty sure it's not similar to a Buddhist prayer as well (but I may be wrong). And don't forget about atheists.
Bloodbeard
Member
Fuck it. Not important.
Essentially, people are animals with not enough sense to make anything decent in the world.
Essentially, people are animals with not enough sense to make anything decent in the world.
It was added as a propaganda tool against Russia. The idea was spread that Russia was a communist/atheist nation, and thus we had to be Capitalist/Christian to beat them.
That's how wars work in America, we use social engineering to convince the people to support them.
Yup. People don't realize how much of this 'tradition' is just old leftover propaganda from the Second Red Scare - in essence, the original point of all this WAS exclusion, because they thought it'd supress and scare people away from being a communist.
Did not know that, and it reinforces my position that it probably should be removed.
Sanky Panky
Banned
If that is truly your belief, why get your panties up in a bunch if some people chose to?
The implication is that every day they will strive to do all those things. It doesn't say "I'm dumb so help me be smart. I suck at sports, so help me be good".
It doesn't imply that those who don't ask God will be the opposite of those things, so atheists should not feel excluded/ostracized. It's the buzzword the lawyer told the girl to say. It's a petty complaint.
Off to bed, but it has been fun gaf.
Tradition is not the best reason for maintaining something that infringes on the constitution. If the school still had a "coloreds only" sign near a water fountain from the civil rights days, I don't know that anyone would argue against its removal based on tradition.
2 types of atheists
one type just doesn't believe in religion and lets everyone do their own thing...the good kind
the other feels like they have been raped by the bible and is taking it out on every piece of religion they see....the annoying self righteous kind who is wasting everyone's tax payer money.
Can't we all just cruise through life just being chill. So what if there is a prayer or religious symbol in a public place because maybe it makes somebody else happy. I don't see why we have to remove them...why not include the other faiths/religions of that region or community. And if it really bothers you just ignore it. I understand we don't want to rule from the bible/koran/torah and force people to agree with someone elses beliefs but don't people have better things to do?
Soon we will be like the Neutral Planet
one type just doesn't believe in religion and lets everyone do their own thing...the good kind
the other feels like they have been raped by the bible and is taking it out on every piece of religion they see....the annoying self righteous kind who is wasting everyone's tax payer money.
Can't we all just cruise through life just being chill. So what if there is a prayer or religious symbol in a public place because maybe it makes somebody else happy. I don't see why we have to remove them...why not include the other faiths/religions of that region or community. And if it really bothers you just ignore it. I understand we don't want to rule from the bible/koran/torah and force people to agree with someone elses beliefs but don't people have better things to do?
Soon we will be like the Neutral Planet
Well any activist would argue, and not incorrectly that if you let little things slide, then bigger things may come along and they may be harder to get rid of.
I don't think all Christians realize that ultimately the separation of church and state is designed to protect them as well. If you set a precedent of allowing certain religious views in the public setting, then that precedent can be used when some other religion or belief is the predominant one. There is no guarantee the US stays a majority christian nation forever, who knows what will happen down the line.
I don't think all Christians realize that ultimately the separation of church and state is designed to protect them as well. If you set a precedent of allowing certain religious views in the public setting, then that precedent can be used when some other religion or belief is the predominant one. There is no guarantee the US stays a majority christian nation forever, who knows what will happen down the line.
I am typically the first 'type of atheist' you describe(not really, an agnostic), but its people like you that make me feel like the second. School is one of the most formative parts of a kid's life, and nobody should have to 'tolerate' any religious beliefs at all in school besides debates in the classrooms and between students. The institutions themselves should be dedicated to one thing only: the pursuit of knowledge. I'm not even opposed to reading the bible in an appropriate class as a philosophical exercise.
That being said, the school should strive for as secular an experience as possible, because as a public institution its not supposed to introduce differences in people by design. You want prayers in the halls? Go to a private christian school. There are a shitload in the US.
Sounds like you have some Father issues with our heavenly lord...was there any biblical abuse in your past?
It really ticks me off when people do this.
It does not say "We will strive to do X, Y, and Z." It does say "Heavenly father, help us to have the desire to do X, Y, and Z." From the fact that they are asking their heavenly father to instill that desire in them, it stands to reason that the writer believes that they need God's help in doing those things.
Further, I did not say that it said anything about being dumb or sucking at sports. I don't know why you feel the need to lie about that. What I did say was that the prayer specifically asked for help from God with:
- to do their best
- grow mentally
- grow morally
- grow physically
- be kind and helpful
- to be honest
- to be good sports
- to teach them the true value of friendship
- to conduct themselves so as to always bring credit to their school
And every single one of those things has a clear corresponding line (sometimes even verbatim from what I wrote). This is a matter of basic reading comprehension. The prayer asks for God's intercession so they have the desire to do those things. That is the plain meaning of the text.
This cannot be stressed enough, although it seemingly will never be understood by the religious majority of this country.
Oddly enough, a large portion of the religious majority feel like they are being oppressed in this country. It really is a bit... strange.
What happened to the group of atheists who are happy to let religious people do their thing as long as they don't start discriminating against or belittling others, corrupting educational programmes, impeding scientific progress and understanding, and/or impinging on the rights others?
my type of guy!
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
haha... for someone claiming the ethical high ground you stooped to personal attacks pretty fast.
And like someone else mentioned, your argument is very much in line with Christian ideology, it's not like you're saying anything controversial. Humans are sinners by nature, and need god to be morally sound.
someone doesn't have a sense of humor.
and yes it was funny....you just don't have a sense of humor
In other words, not be religious(Abrahamic, specifically).
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
This whole thread has been fun.
I'll tell you a secret: I do have some history with religion, Christianity specifically, and there was a time in my life I might have been worked up about/by a religion thread.
But that was some time ago, and the sting has long since worn off. My involvement in these threads now is entirely intellectual and for my own enjoyment.
That said. Your joke was dumb, and not really all that funny. Since it was difficult to tell it was even a joke... *edited for civility*.
Yes... ok.
you are like the person in a group who gets made fun of and doesn't get the joke..and then makes a blowhard speech about things no one else cares about.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Look at it this way. There are several diseases you can get that will cause you to die, that would be helped by medical procedures (stem cell related) that aren't being properly researched because of maladaptive religious morality being forced on you.
I mean, there are a significant amount of teachers who don't believe in evolution in this country. EVOLUTION. It's societally negative for such large portions of society to be so scientifically ignorant, and where is the inertia coming from?
If you look for religious ideas being used to manipulate people, or convince people to believe in things that are negative societally, you see it everywhere. It wears you down.
Yeah, it's great to be a nice, kind person... but at a certain point you have to stand up for the wellbeing of yourself and your fellow humans. It's damned important to.
I mean, no doubt I do it on the internet so I can air it out and don't fuck up my social life. But still, at least someone hears it. :lol
Yeah, it's self righteous for me to say that the Middle East would be better without religion, maybe.
But if you look at it, the religion over there creates these states of oppression because there are religious precedents to do such things. I mean, shit is serious. Women being imprisoned for being out past curfew and shit. People being stoned to death because the religious jurisprudence prescribes it for adultery. People being charged of witchcraft and killed for it.
Yes, most Islamic people are more moderate, thankfully, but it's in some of their religious text (not the Koran, but in other text attributed to Muhammad, I believe) that leaving the faith is punished by death. Death. Shit is fucked up. You don't want people believing that, or having their views colored by such a strong reaction in their religious tradition. It's ideological imprisonment.
So can there be a third kind of atheist? One that has a problem with the inhumane activities occurring across the globe, and is frustrated by the state of scientific literacy at home? It isn't religion that I'm speaking against at heart, religion is just something that enables the activities. I have no problem with anyone peacefully following any belief, and not imposing the belief on others. None at all. I'm just saying, these are important issues that shouldn't be ignored because it makes people uncomfortable.
graywolf323
Member
too bad for her that the crowning "achievement" of her life had to happen at 16
all downhill from here Jessica
all downhill from here Jessica
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Someone needs to look up irony in the dictionary.
graywolf323
Member
can I be offended that she sued over something she didn't even really care about?
Someone does, that's for sure.
The only thing ironic in your post is what you typed in.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
... you're right. Dammit.
When bad things happen (like in your many many examples and there are plenty more similar) lets go in and stop it.
My comment was directed towards atheists who consider everything that offends them to be highly paramount.
Although this is not limited to just annoying atheists. This also applies to the jerk in an apartment complex who reports everyone for technicalities, cops who wrote ticky tack speeding tickets, parking tickets, jaywalking tickets, etc (how about they stop extorting and harassing the people who pay their salary and find some way to stop some real crime), people who handle paperwork then freakout over little mistakes on a form instead of helping you are and just fixing it, and many more. These are the heroes of our society that annoy me
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
I read the 40 page decision. It was absolutely fascinating reading the reasoning and the subsequent verdict. I really want to learn more about this 'lemon' test that they go through. Because in the paper, they actually talk about where this type of argument failed... But it didn't fail here.
I highly recommend people read it.
I highly recommend people read it.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Yeah, people being petty to make themselves feel important is so damn annoying. Definitely a peeve of mine as well.
speculawyer
Member
WTF is that garbage?
The only people wasting tax dollars are those that put these blatantly unconstitutional signs up. If they didn't put them up, there would be no issue would there?
It is really a very very simple principle. Don't put up religious propaganda at tax-payer expense in public buildings. It is for the protection of everyone, even those religious people . . . do you really want the government taking the reigns of your religion? Really?
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
Sound like it hit close to home
True. But trying to do it retroactively seems petty.
nope...but i don't want petty people who just want to impose them thoughts and opinions on my life either. That goes for teachers who bring personal politics into the classroom
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
And how is the school Congress? Where are laws respecting an establishment of religion being made by Congress in this particular case?
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