Pai Pai Master
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Hollywood's most controversial racial miscasting
- Thread starter Dram
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Mister0079
Member
I forgot to further expand on my previous post, 300 was offensive to Iranians and not Jake Gyllenhaal in Prince Of Persia. It's something I don't see brought up at all anywhere.
He's too black.
Persia in the past centuries was definitely 'whiter' than it is now. Simple genetics show us white genes are recessive. Once the Moors conquered Spain, you've seen a demographic shift in the appearance of what it means to be Spaniard. Even now, many, many centuries later, Spaniards look more distinct from many other European population groups, darker hair, darker more olive skin, darker eye colors. Once the Mongols conquered most of North and Central Asia, you can easily see the shift in population groups and appearance. Once Islam spread and Arab sultanates took over a lot of North Africa, the Mediterranean, you're seeing more Arabic features replace native African ones. Even our perception of what 'white' is, is skewed by the sheer proliferation of the Dutch, German, British and French empires. British especially, as most Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, all share genetics with Anglo-Saxons etc. When we think of Ancient Rome, we either have an image of British white, or Italians as representative, when that's probably hard to gauge.
In my opinion, you just have to hope someone looks and sounds the part and does a great job with the role.
In my opinion, you just have to hope someone looks and sounds the part and does a great job with the role.
It seems like people don't seem to remember 1937's The Good Earth.
Although it was a good movie, it's miscastings were among the worst I've seen or heard of.
Although it was a good movie, it's miscastings were among the worst I've seen or heard of.
You mean Gus didn't speak perfect spanish? Oh noes. I found Dexter to be far worse, mind you, Laguerta or Angel were awful. At least in BB there were some real mexican (I think) actors who spoke well.
I find it funny when they cast spanish (from Spain) characters in movies/tv and they are all invariably tanned, brown eyes, brown hair, and speak forced broken english. There's a LOT of diversity in Spain, fuck, I'm pale as milk with a red beard, and I know lots of blondes, redheads, brunettes, pale, tanned, with different eye color... it's like if they don't fit the sterotype they are not from here.
First of all even from those pictures there's a significant immediate difference: a random bystander wouldn't identify the top picture as a white male.
I could've mistaken him for Italian or Spanish. Also, hot damn....
Lawrence of Arabia constantly rotates around my top 3 favorite films of all-time. I don't think any of the performances mentioned have anything to do with how good or not they were. They just are what they are. In the case of Lawrence, it's just a product of its time.
OTOH something like Exodus is kind of inexplicable in this day and age, no matter what excuses Scott peddles. Shit, even Lawrence, a movie 50 years its senior, had a person of arab descent as one of the main characters LOL.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
FYI, genetical studies show that Moorish ancestry is small among Spaniards. Mixed marriages with the invaders were not a thing and segregation was enforced by law. That bit of North African ancestry probably comes from Phoenicians, Carthaginians and Greek colonies. Romans and celtic tribes mixed in much larger numbers. They weren't that fond of segregation by blood and religion, which resulted in a literal clusterfuck.
Ancient Iberians were considered different from Romans and North Africans, but it's no really clear how they looked. Some of them were described as paler than North Africans but darker than Celts, with clear eyes and brown hair. As for our darker skin, much of it is a consequence of having more hours of sunlight than the rest of Europe than naturally high levels of melanine. There was a study about skin cancer that talked about this part, but I can't find it for the life in me.
The stereotypical Antonio Banderas look is just that, a romantic stereotype. Most folks don't look that way. The black Irish/dark Briton look is much, much closer.
Gus was ok. I commend the actor, he's actually fluent in Spanish and you can tell he took his part seriously. But Tío Salamanca was fucking awful. Those scenes when he was a still a big time Mexican mobster were horrifying.
Hollywood was so short on brown actors in the 60s that Omar Sharif played Che Guevara.
Ken Watanabe was the last samurai.
there were a lot of complaints over the use of english instead of japanese and the very shallow portrayal of japanese society in the movie. anyway the movie isn't even worth discussing, it's pure shit.
Stereogatari
Banned
He looks like me lol. I've been mistaken for/said to look like nearly every ethnicity that has a Mediterranean coast and Iranian.
Game of Thrones
The Sand Snakes (Oberyn Martell's daughters)
Dorann Martell (Oberyn Martell's brother)
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Oberyn Martell
Now Westeros is a fictional place that is not too similar to our own world, but check this out.
Tyene (played by Rosabell Laurenti Sellers, youngest Sand daughter) - Italian American born in New York City
Obara (Keisha Castle-Hughes, eldest Sand daughter) - born in Australia
Nymeria (Jessica Hemwick, middle Sand daughter) - born in England
Dorann (Martell prince, brother of Oberyn Martell, played by Alexander Siddig) - English actor born in Sudan
Oberyn Martell (Pedro Pascal, the actor who basically caused all of the above to be cast as his relatives by appearing last season in a wildly successful role) - Chilean
Now, you might say it was all worth it if everyone was perfect for the role, but the Sand Snakes are widely considered among the worst, poorest acted characters in the show's history.
The Sand Snakes (Oberyn Martell's daughters)
Dorann Martell (Oberyn Martell's brother)
Oberyn Martell
Now Westeros is a fictional place that is not too similar to our own world, but check this out.
Tyene (played by Rosabell Laurenti Sellers, youngest Sand daughter) - Italian American born in New York City
Obara (Keisha Castle-Hughes, eldest Sand daughter) - born in Australia
Nymeria (Jessica Hemwick, middle Sand daughter) - born in England
Dorann (Martell prince, brother of Oberyn Martell, played by Alexander Siddig) - English actor born in Sudan
Oberyn Martell (Pedro Pascal, the actor who basically caused all of the above to be cast as his relatives by appearing last season in a wildly successful role) - Chilean
Now, you might say it was all worth it if everyone was perfect for the role, but the Sand Snakes are widely considered among the worst, poorest acted characters in the show's history.
Some of these are just noise, and people playing foul on race even though there is no concern with it.
4. Natalie Wood as Maria in West Side Story
There are lots of white Puerto Ricans
7. Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra
Cleopatra was white
11. Al Pacino in Scarface
There are lots of white Cubans (aren't most?). Castro for example...
14. Fred Armisen as Barack Obama in SNL
Obama is half white so regardless of how he identifies himself there's nothing wrong with having a white dude play him.
18. Jake Gyllenhaal in the Prince of Pesia: The Sands of Time
Iranians are totally white too
4. Natalie Wood as Maria in West Side Story
There are lots of white Puerto Ricans
7. Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra
Cleopatra was white
11. Al Pacino in Scarface
There are lots of white Cubans (aren't most?). Castro for example...
14. Fred Armisen as Barack Obama in SNL
Obama is half white so regardless of how he identifies himself there's nothing wrong with having a white dude play him.
18. Jake Gyllenhaal in the Prince of Pesia: The Sands of Time
Iranians are totally white too
alfredofroylan
Member
Salma is from Coatzacoalcos Veracuz, and TBH there was a bunch of people angry about that movie here in Mexico, but it's the same people that is angry about getting Santa Claus instead of Quetzalcoatl, I like Frida and the english language doesn't bother me. (Heck just look at Ghandi or the Last Emperor)
Anthony Hopkins asa black man
A black man who has spent the last 20 years passing as white, even to his own wife. He's clearly supposed to be of the "one drop" persuasion where they are mostly white and look white, but have at least some African American heritage.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
There are PLENTY of Chileans of European stock, particularly of Spanish (duh), Italian and German descent. Pedro has a different look than the rest of the cast, but nobody is going to say that is stereotypically Latin American.
He was fine.
In some ways, I think you could throw this list back at the writer; he clearly has a sense of Iranians and Egyptians (and Puerto Ricans etc.) as unambiguously ethnic and foreign looking, when many of these peoples are not clearly darker than Greeks or Italians, for instance.
I think he's confusing a foreign culture (i.e. Egypt is not typically considered part of Europe or "European culture,") with foreign appearance (i.e. the person doesn't physically look like a European).
You're completely missing the issue. The issue is when these ethnicities are minor characters, backdrop characters or the villain - Hollywood has no issues casting darker skinned actors/actresses. But when they're the main characters, have major speaking roles or are the good guys? All of a sudden Hollywood is hellbent on casting white actors/actresses and utilizing the "but... but... X ethnicity can be white!" or "X, Y or Z was the best person for the role!" or "X, Y or Z had a X relative 3092 generations ago!" excuses.
That one was pretty bad. Good movie though
Yeah totally. He seems to be conflating the two. He could also being using the white = Germanic definition as well.
I'm not missing the point. There is no problem casting white actors to play these people because all of them either are or can be white in real life.
It's a different issue that Hollywood casts darker people to play villains, etc. In that respect I agree with you that it's problematic. It one of the reasons I dislike 300 for example.
Everyone on that movie
I sometimes wonder that myself, if some people complaining about this are white ppl who think everyone living there has to be "brown".
Okay, understood. Also, good post from opiate below me.
It's definitely an issue (and I elaborated on it in a couple posts earlier) but it's not really what's being discussed directly in the article.
The article is suggesting those people are miscast, because Egyptians/Iranians/etc. don't look like Jake Gyllenhaal or Elizabeth Taylor. The problem is Egyptians/Iranians frequently do look just like that.
In the broader picture, I completely agree with you; more roles (especially protagonist roles) go to white people than is proportional. This doesn't mean that these specific examples listed are great indicators of that, though. Some of them are, and others aren't.
FieryBalrog
Member
It's really easy to confuse being offended on the internet with meaningful discussions on social mores.
I thought that was a joke entry. lol
Yes you are. People from X, Y, and Z ethnicity can be white. But they can also not be white. The issue is the fact that more times than not, Hollywood chooses to base its casting on the former - even though the latter can be equally if not more true to life. Another example: Movies like The Last Samurai, Dances with Wolves, etc. Was it possible for there to be white people within those instances? Considering they're based on true stories, absolutely. But for every story of that kind, there's literally thousands of other stories exclusively about the non-white ethnic group - completely absent of white involvement - that they could have told. But Hollywood consistently pulls from the small pool of stories.
Stereogatari
Banned
As a Turk I have the opposite problem with American Media. It tends to portray us as brown, when we're closer to white.
Scrubs has to be the most annoying. An Indian Sikh played a Turkish character. JD and Elliot look closer to what Turks look like than that guy!
The problem with Rob Schneider is that he gets movie roles.
I can't hate on the short haired one
This is not the issue the article linked in the OP is pointing out / discussing.
What you are talking about is a real issue, I have no argument with that. But that's not what the article is talking about. It may be what it is implying. but not what it is talking about directly. The article is talking about people being miscast because they do not look like the peoples they are intended to portray.
Mickey Rooney and John Wayne are excellent examples of what they are talking about; those are people who clearly do not look like a typical Japanese or Mongol person but were cast as one anyway.
Jake Gylenhaal, by contrast, does look quite a bit like many Iranians. This doesn't mean your larger point is invalid -- I agree with it -- nor does it invalidate those other examples, but these specific examples in this specific context are not well chosen.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm still trying to figure how does she manage to conceal that glorious rack.
You can't explain that.
He's supposed to be turkish? lol
boiled goose
good with gravy
Al Pacino controversial? Nah
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
Some of these are really reaching...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Nothing will ever surprise me after seeing Naveen Andrews portraying an Iraqi soldier.
"He's brown, so it fits".
I mean, I loved his character, but goddamn.
Technically, but back in the day Moor was also an umbrella term to describe any Muslim.
Stereogatari
Banned
Tell me about it. How clueless can the writers be? All it would take is a google search to cast it properly, or if they wanted to use the Sikh guy then make him as a Punjabi character.
ZeroCypher
Member
No reference to Tropic Thunder?
lostzenfound
Junior Member
I dunno man. If you ask me what's most controversial, I'd say Kung-Fu. It was partly Bruce Lee's idea, then production decided he was too Asian for the lead, so in came Carradine.
A lot of these other ones aren't such a big deal if you ask me.
I think the broader issue which Harson is getting at is much more serious and also trickier to encapsulate in a slideshow like this one.
There are lots of parts -- most parts, really -- which could be played by basically anyone. There is no reason Spiderman can't be black. There isn't a compelling reason why Harry Potter couldn't have been written as a girl. There's no real reason that Game of Thrones characters couldn't have all basically looked Asian, as it's a fictional universe anyway.
And in a hugely disproportionate number of these cases -- situations where race or gender really aren't important to the story -- those characters and actors end up being white and end up being male. The tricky part is that sometimes that should happen; whites do make up 66% of the US, after all, and even larger percentage of Europe. It is true that some of these characters should just so happen to be white males, purely by chance. So really, we're not saying none of them should be white males, just that too many of them are. The frequency that these characters just so happen to be white males far exceeds random chance. It is too uncommon for these characters to end up being a Hispanic woman or an Asian male or whatever else you can think of.
This makes it tricky because it means you can't point the finger at any specific movie or book. Individually, it's totally fine for each one to happen to have a white male protagonist. Collectively, it's a problem, because a disproportionately large number of stories happen to make just that choice.
There are lots of parts -- most parts, really -- which could be played by basically anyone. There is no reason Spiderman can't be black. There isn't a compelling reason why Harry Potter couldn't have been written as a girl. There's no real reason that Game of Thrones characters couldn't have all basically looked Asian, as it's a fictional universe anyway.
And in a hugely disproportionate number of these cases -- situations where race or gender really aren't important to the story -- those characters and actors end up being white and end up being male. The tricky part is that sometimes that should happen; whites do make up 66% of the US, after all, and even larger percentage of Europe. It is true that some of these characters should just so happen to be white males, purely by chance. So really, we're not saying none of them should be white males, just that too many of them are. The frequency that these characters just so happen to be white males far exceeds random chance. It is too uncommon for these characters to end up being a Hispanic woman or an Asian male or whatever else you can think of.
This makes it tricky because it means you can't point the finger at any specific movie or book. Individually, it's totally fine for each one to happen to have a white male protagonist. Collectively, it's a problem, because a disproportionately large number of stories happen to make just that choice.
Who are you talking about?
shanshan310
Member
Game of Thrones
The Sand Snakes (Oberyn Martell's daughters)
Dorann Martell (Oberyn Martell's brother)
Oberyn Martell
Now Westeros is a fictional place that is not too similar to our own world, but check this out.
Tyene (played by Rosabell Laurenti Sellers, youngest Sand daughter) - Italian American born in New York City
Obara (Keisha Castle-Hughes, eldest Sand daughter) - born in Australia
Nymeria (Jessica Hemwick, middle Sand daughter) - born in England
Dorann (Martell prince, brother of Oberyn Martell, played by Alexander Siddig) - English actor born in Sudan
Oberyn Martell (Pedro Pascal, the actor who basically caused all of the above to be cast as his relatives by appearing last season in a wildly successful role) - Chilean
Now, you might say it was all worth it if everyone was perfect for the role, but the Sand Snakes are widely considered among the worst, poorest acted characters in the show's history.
All of the sandsnakes are supposed to have mixed heritage anyway, but yeah Dorne isn't really even a place and the nationality of the dornish could match the description of any of those actors and actresses.
Keisha Castle-Hughes is Maori by the way.
Stereogatari
Banned
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