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[Barajas_201]

Who is claiming that?

Obviously the OP:

Anyone else feel this way? The way they treat (some) of their own people is fucking terrible and now you see them fucking about with western countries and stirring the pot.

How far are they gonna push shit because at the moment it really seems like Putin is looking for war or to make U.S and its allies look like a bunch of "pussies".

I don't trust Trump at all in regards to Russia that prick is prob doing private 4cam shows for Putin at the promise of him becoming president.

I know you like to argue semantics, bet let's get real now. The aggressive thread title plus the finger pointing, or as OP puts it, "stirring the pot" clearly implies he believes Russia is behind everything he deems bad.

Considering the vast majority of russians support Putin and his actions, I'd say Russia is responsible. No one is claiming that Russia is the cause of all the world woes, but with the shit going on in The Ukraine, Georgia, and Syria, it's pretty obvious Putin doesn't want peace. None of this incidents were caused by the US or NATO, it was all Putin.

You don't know that, in fact, it was the U.S. the one that caused ISIS by proxy through the Iraq Invasion, plus the CIA funds some of the jihadist in Syria right now. Please do more research.

 

[KonradLaw]

While I find Putin's action to be often pretty terrible, at the same time I wouldn't bet this type of power isn't exactly what most Russians want.

 

[GeoNeo]

Rather rude topic when we probably have members here who are russian. How well would a "Honestly, fuck America" thread go?

Though, I certainly agree that Putin is awful.

I was referring to the government not Russian people I fucked up the thread title so I deserve the backlash.

I'm not American. I'm Australian so please you're welcome to make a fuck Australia thread (government) because I'd 100% agree with you.

I want to see what both sides of the story is on this matter. I guess the biggest thing I find annoying is we keep seeing history repeating again and again with it comes to the "super powers" and it's just disheartening because you'd think after all the wars and millions & millions of people lost these governments would learn.

The replies from some posters so far have been really appreciated.

 

[Toxi]

Don't pretend that NATO's isn't simply a anti-russian alliance. Of course they don't want their neighbours to be their enemies. They want them to be in their own sphere of influence. Imagine if the USA lost the cold war and the warsaw part expanded to Canada and Mexico lol

Russia justified the need for those countries to join NATO the moment they invaded their neighbors.

It's hilarious the lengths people go to defending imperialism.

 

[Kthulhu]

Just seems like it'd be easier, and more accurate to say "Fuck Putin" rather than "Fuck Russia."

Usually when someone is referring to a country, they are referring to their government. However, I would say "Fuck you" to the majority of Russians too, considering Putin's approval rating.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...isnt-the-one-donald-trump-seems-to-be-taking/

 

[El_Mau]

It's not a zero sum game, you can criticise the problems in every country. I can criticise racism in my own country, Australia, while also critcising it in the United States, while also criticising the invasion of Ukraine, while also criticising the historical invasion of Iraq.

Mud-slinging is not an argument or justification for one's state-level actions. Institutional racism in the United States has no connection to state-oppression in the Soviet Union, and thus one is not a justification for the other. Hence, why it's pointed out as a useless rhetorical technique that should be called out whenever it's used.

True true, but the op feels like if America is on a higher ground to criticize another country, maybe if he started the conversation with something like "I know America/Our goverment is not perfect, but I want to say fuck Russia cuz bla bla bla bla" would have helped to keep the thread on topic.

But yeah, what Russia is doing is plain stupid.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Just seems like it'd be easier, and more accurate to say "Fuck Putin" rather than "Fuck Russia."

Can you really separate the government of Russia and Putin at this point?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Usually when someone is referring to a country, they are referring to their government. However, I would say "Fuck you" to the majority of Russians too, considering Putin's approval rating.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...isnt-the-one-donald-trump-seems-to-be-taking/

To be fair to the Russian people they are not getting a fair picture of facts. Putin controls state media and there is no actual opposition (they all by coincidence end up dead or in jail). Russians can vote for Putin, Putin light, and Putin bold

 

[Kthulhu]

Obviously the OP:


I know you like to argue semantics, bet let's get real now. The aggressive thread title plus the finger pointing, or as OP puts it, "stirring the pot" clearly implies he believes Russia is behind everything he deems bad.



You don't know that, in fact, it was the U.S. the one that caused ISIS by proxy through the Iraq Invasion, plus the CIA funds some of the jihadist in Syria right now. Please do more research.

Link your sources then instead of making baseless accusations. Yeah the US indirectly created ISIS, but that was a prior administration that is hated by the majority of the population. Unlike Russia, where Putin is loved by many despite his inflammatory actions.

 

[Kevtones]

I'll befriend every Russian citizen right now. Come at me and be my friend, Russians.

 

[ZackieChan]

“You Really Think Someone Would Do That? Just Go Out in the World and interfere with other countries' elections?”

Have I got a book for you, OP: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0307389006/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Krejlooc]

Usually when someone is referring to a country, they are referring to their government.

Eh, it's not so big a deal to me as for me to need to dig my heels in and argue till I'm blue in the face over it, in the end, yeah, I understand what was meant. But the phrasing tends to put people immediately on the defensive, and that clouds some of the conversation.

But in any case, it looks like this topic has been fruitful enough anyways so it really doesn't matter.

 

[ChouGoku]

Member the red scare? The U.S never interferes with other countries political process!

 

[Kthulhu]

“You Really Think Someone Would Do That? Just Go Out in the World and interfere with other countries' elections?”

Have I got a book for you, OP: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0307389006/?tag=neogaf0e-20

The CIA doesn't do that anymore (as far as we know). The Cold War was a shit show that made both sides into monsters.

 

[Carcetti]

Sure, Russia is quite awful with regards to basic human decency, rights, etc. but the USA is kind of guilty in the same regards.

Let us know when USA
- flattens a country the way Russia did Chechnya
- Blatantly invades neighboring countries
- Shoots down passenger liners
- Is run by the same despot for ages through electoral trickery
- Kills critical journalists
- Jails and kills political opposition
- Erases all media critical of the government
- Siphons all the wealth to corrupt oligarchs (wait, okay I'll give you USA there)

I could go on.

 

[Toxi]

Let us know when USA
- flattens a country the way Russia did Chechnya
- Blatantly invades neighboring countries
- Shoots down passenger liners
- Is run by the same despot for ages through electoral trickery
- Kills critical journalists
- Jails and kills political opposition
- Erases all media critical of the government
- Siphons all the wealth to corrupt oligarchs (wait, okay I'll give you USA there)

I could go on.

It has done all those things (except for being ruled by the same despot for ages), though most of them haven't been recent.

Iran Air Flight 655 is one example of things the US should be ashamed of.

 

[Krejlooc]

The CIA doesn't do that anymore (as far as we know)

I would seriously doubt this, personally. Considering the measures our government considers reasonable against it's own people, I honestly believe there is no limit to what countries will attempt to do.

Further, if you are out there currently influencing other elections, would you admit to doing it?

 

[EUA]

You all would be surprised how many of those amazing people can't even think about black people, Arabs, lgbt etc. without casually calling them all kinds of nasty names.

But this also true for a big part of my country (Ukraine).

I'd say an average Putin supporter doesn't fall far from you average Trump supporter, based on what I've seen on US channels and on the Internet.

 

[Mung]

So in retaliation it would be just for the US to invade Canada and Mexico because they're part of an organization that doesn't serve U.S. interests?

It may not be just, but it is definitely what they would do if they couldn't change the regime by other means.

 

[Kthulhu]

I would seriously doubt this, personally. Considering the measures our government considers reasonable against it's own people, I honestly believe there is no limit to what countries will attempt to do.

Further, if you are out there currently influencing other elections, would you admit to doing it?

Well, unless you've got proof, I'm going to assume they don't (not that the CIA is perfect mind you).

 

[Pyrrhus]

I would seriously doubt this, personally. Considering the measures our government considers reasonable against it's own people, I honestly believe there is no limit to what countries will attempt to do.

Further, if you are out there currently influencing other elections, would you admit to doing it?

Would we be letting the Philippines go the way they are right now if we still behaved like it was 1950? We have influence all over the world but we don't operate in nearly so blunt a manner anymore. Probably because it's bad for business. Our control is focused more on economics and culture than direct force. Meanwhile, Putin has domestic critics outlawed, jailed, or murdered and outright invades, conquers, and annexes weaker neighbors in the 21st Century. Can you say the same about even our worst politicians here?

 

[GeoNeo]

What do you guys think will be the outcome of this whole thing if both sides are not willing hash shit out? Will we see wars escalate?

Viewing it from a purely economical perspective it would seem to me this would end up just costing Russia and the U.S a fuck ton of money for very little payoff unless they hope to recoup it from claiming land / resources.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Imagine if the USA lost the cold war and the warsaw part expanded to Canada and Mexico lol

The analogy wouldn't work because NATO expansion wasn't an aggressive military push into countries, it was those countries requesting NATO protection against the possibility of a resurgence in Russian power which might result in them, once again, extinguishing their independence. Neither Canada nor Mexico were puppet regimes installed by force and ruled from the United States. Mexico pursued a neutral foreign policy while Canada was close friends and allies with the United States.

Even situations like Iran aren't directly comparable, because America and Britain did not really care what kind of government you had, so long as you were a pro-west regime. Democracies were preferred, but autocracies of various kinds were also acceptable, so long as they were on their side. The situation in the Baltic states, by contrast, was one where the USSR directly annexed those countries then proceeded to try and stamp out any trace of nation identity and colonise the region with ethnic Russians. The situation in the Warsaw Pact "allies" was that they were ruled by Moscow, and only had autonomy in a very limited sense, they had to model themselves and their economies after the Soviet Union, they had to enforce the will of the USSR in all things, and were militarily subordinate in all matters. The politburo, the secret police, everything.

The sudden collapse of US influence in the 1990's would not have ever created the kind of resentment in America's immediate neighbors, because that relationship never existed in the first place. Why would they seek Russian protection?

 

[Pyrrhus]

What do you guys think will be the outcome of this whole thing if both sides are not willing hash shit out? Will we see wars escalate?

Viewing it from a purely economical perspective it would seem to me this would end up just costing Russia and the U.S a fuck ton of money for very little payoff unless they hope to recoup it from claiming land / resources.

If we go to war, actual war rather than this proxy stuff we're currently doing, we probably all die. Or at least most of our draft age kids do. I really don't think either side wants an actual, full-blown war even at their craziest and most nationalistic.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

It has done all those things (except for being ruled by the same despot for ages), though most of them haven't been recent.

Iran Air Flight 655 is one example of things the US should be ashamed of.

Yeah but we admitted responsibility, we didn't claim the Iranians did it as a false flag operation the way Russia claims that about the Ukrainian military.

Also pretty sure our government has never silenced all critical press and replaced it with state-sponsored and controlled media.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

What do you guys think will be the outcome of this whole thing if both sides are not willing hash shit out? Will we see wars escalate?

Viewing it from a purely economical perspective it would seem to me this would end up just costing Russia and the U.S a fuck ton of money for very little payoff unless they hope to recoup it from claiming land / resources.

Russia's economy is heading to another crash. They have contracted so far that Spain has a larger economy at the moment. Putin has also taken over much of the private areas of the economy where it something like ~74% (??) state owned . The very low oil price and added competition of Iran and North American operations also have put a huge strain on Russia's economy which is reliant on energy production.

US has very little economic interests in Russia and sanctions are continuing to hurt them economically. So realistically US and the west can wait out Putin if he wants to continue to act like North Korea and he will be overthrown by the mobs or step down.

 

[Mung]

The analogy wouldn't work because NATO expansion wasn't an aggressive military push into countries, it was those countries requesting NATO protection against the possibility of a resurgence in Russian power which might result in them, once again, extinguishing their independence. Neither Canada nor Mexico were puppet regimes installed by force and ruled from the United States. Mexico pursued a neutral foreign policy while Canada was close friends and allies with the United States.

Even situations like Iran aren't directly comparable, because America and Britain did not really care what kind of government you had, so long as you were a pro-west regime. Democracies were preferred, but autocracies of various kinds were also acceptable, so long as they were on their side.

Yes, but regardless of the means of influence (imposed or consensual) , the USA would want their backyard to be under their own influence. Cuba is an interesting one as the USA tried and failed to create a change in regime many times.

 

[Barajas_201]

Link your sources then instead of making baseless accusations. Yeah the US indirectly created ISIS, but that was a prior administration that is hated by the majority of the population. Unlike Russia, where Putin is loved by many despite his inflammatory actions.

I'm not gonna do your homework, if you actually care about being objective you'll inform yourself, besides the one that needs to link sources about Russia "loving" Putin is you, going by that bases that by "loved" you actually mean majority approval than you're giving Putin more credit than he deserves after the many fraud election allegations.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah but we admitted responsibility, we didn't claim the Iranians did it as a false flag operation the way Russia claims that about the Ukrainian military.

We certainly did deny responsibility by refusing to apologize for it.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

We certainly did deny responsibility by refusing to apologize for it.

There were court marshals and people held accountable. Russia is still trying to toss conspiracy theories.

 

[Nivash]

Yes, but regardless of the means of influence (imposed or consensual) , the USA would want their backyard to be under their influence. Cuba is an interesting one as the USA tried and failed to create a change in regime many times.

But really, so freaking what? It's quite frankly disgusting to argue that the sovereignty of smaller nations shouldn't be respected because the greater powers are self-interested and in bizarro world, the US would invade Canada. Morality and international law should not be based on Great Game thinking and the whims of superpowers; that's a 19th century view of things.

Because that's what you're arguing. You're essentially saying that the former Warzaw pact countries shouldn't have been allowed to dictate their own foreign policy and been refused to join NATO because they still belonged, in some sense, to Russia. That's what the argument that Russia is "backed into a corner" ends in. Yes, I know that Russia is worried and feels humiliated because of NATO expansion and their own loss of influence. Yes, I know that it wanted special privileges after the war ended and still fancies itself a superpower.

The point is that those are not legitimate points of view. Smaller nations are not playthings or chess pieces. We have a right to make our own decisions. That's the end of it - arguing otherwise is simply condoning imperialism.

 

[ZackieChan]

The CIA doesn't do that anymore (as far as we know). The Cold War was a shit show that made both sides into monsters.

All of the info in that book came out long after the fact, IIRC. I would say that you are incredibly naive if you think the CIA isn't messing about across the world in some way or another.

 

[Mung]

But really, so freaking what? It's quite frankly disgusting to argue that the sovereignty of smaller nations shouldn't be respected because the greater powers are self-interested and in bizarro world, the US would invade Canada. Morality and international law should not be based on Great Game thinking and the whims of superpowers; that's a 19th century view of things.

It is not right. And it isn't about condoning this stuff either. But it is the reality of geopolitics. It hasn't changed from the 19th century.

We are currently heading back towards a bi polar world instead of the uni polar world we've had for 20 years. This sort of thinking is going to be the norm for the big powers.

 

[Forearms]

It is not right. And it isn't about condoning this stuff either. But it is the reality of geopolitics. It hasn't changed from the 19th century.

So what would you suggest a smaller country do to protect itself from a much larger, and aggressive, neighboring nation?

 

[Mr. Sam]

People jumping over themselves to excuse Russia - particularly in regards to their recent actions in Syria, not that that is particularly rife in this thread - is honestly one of the sadder spectacles I've seen in a while. No, the US is not just as bad and even if it was, why should that mean we should turn a blind eye?

 

[Mung]

So what would you suggest a smaller country do to protect itself from a much larger, and aggressive, neighboring nation?

Ally with them, stay neutral or join their enemies. All of these things are happening.

 

[Nivash]

It is not right. And it isn't about condoning this stuff either. But it is the reality of geopolitics. It hasn't changed from the 19th century.

We are currently heading back towards a bi polar world instead of the uni polar world we've had for 20 years. This sort of thinking is going to be the norm for the big powers.

But again, so what? Let's say that's true. Why on Earth do you feel the need to defend it? How about calling out both sides then instead of pulling some bullshit about how if both sides do it that's just the way things are and sorry smaller nations, you don't matter. That's condoning imperialism. You keep bringing these things up as if you think it's some kind of profound revelation the rest of us hasn't thought of but guess what, it's kind of international relations 101. It's neither new nor profound.

What is your motivation for arguing that the eastern European nations should have been told to get back in line and stay under Russia's thumb after the collapse of the USSR?

Ally with them, stay neutral or join their enemies. All of these things are happening.

Considering that those cover all physical possibilities, this is somewhat of a nonsense statement.

 

[Piecake]

It is not right. And it isn't about condoning this stuff either. But it is the reality of geopolitics. It hasn't changed from the 19th century.

We are currently heading back towards a bi polar world instead of the uni polar world we've had for 20 years. This sort of thinking is going to be the norm for the big powers.

Geopolitics has changed pretty significantly since the 19th century. Saying otherwise is just completely ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding of history.

And we aren't moving towards a bi-polar world. Russia certainly isn't going to be that power. If you are referring to China, they are still well behind the United States in both hard and soft power and have a lot more stumbling blocks to get passed before they even have a chance of rivaling the United States' power and influence.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think he has pretty good support. If I were born in a crumbling Soviet Union with minimal freedoms, lived through the country being ruled by criminals, and finally a guy like Putin comes around and stabilizes the country and gets the economy going, I would probably think he's a pretty good option.

Russia is going broke

 

[Toxi]

Russia is going broke

It is however doing a lot better than it was in the 90s.

 

[Kinan]

Why that even a question, OP. Ukrainian people are dying every day in the war started by Putin and supported by majority of the russian population. Killed by russian bullets, russian rockets, russian shells, under direction of russian officers. Syrian people are dying every day, killed by russian bombs and rockets only to provide a "free" field training to the rusty russian army.
I think at this point in time is perfectly valid to say "Fuck Russia" the same it was/is popular to say "Fuck USA" during many of their fuckups. Russia dreams to be in that elite club where USA is the only member now, so guess what? They should be happy now, as they finally reached parity(at least) with USA on induced hatred worldwide.And they look like they are just warming up. Congrats, assholes.

 

[Toxi]

Why that even a question, OP. Ukrainian people are dying every day in the war started by Putin and supported by majority of the russian population. Killed by russian bullets, russian rockets, russian shells, under direction of russian officers. Syrian people are dying every day, killed by russian bombs and rockets only to provide a "free" field training to the rusty russian army.
I think at this point in time is perfectly valid to say "Fuck Russia" the same it was/is popular to say "Fuck USA" during many of their fuckups. Russia dreams to be in that elite club where USA is the only member now, so guess what? They should be happy now, as they finally reached parity(at least) with USA on induced hatred worldwide.And they look like they are just warming up. Congrats, assholes.

Russia is currently less favorably viewed than the US worldwide. Congrats indeed.

 

[MisterFalcon]

It has done all those things (except for being ruled by the same despot for ages), though most of them haven't been recent.

Iran Air Flight 655 is one example of things the US should be ashamed of.

Note how the US did not invent a dozen alternative theories to 'the USS Vincennes shot down flight 655' with Iranian jets, false flags and other bullshit. And what they lied about regarding the position of the Vincennes and the circumstances was demolished by Newsweek later in a devastating article called Sea Of Lies.

What do you think the odds are of a Russian newspaper or magazine invesigating MH17 and exposing the truth ? Zero. The ones who would speak up against Putin are dead or fled the country and what is left follows the party line.

The ease with which the situation in Russia and the West are made equivalent is quite amazing. If you want to sell your car will you accept $50 as easily as $500 ? After all, they are both money and as such the same.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It is however doing a lot better than it was in the 90s.

They're still going broke...

You can't pretend Putin actually fixed anything

 

[Ghost]

I still have the new Adam Curtis documentary in the front of my mind so I'm feeling much more conspiratorial than usual but to me the real difference between Russia and the West is that in Russia, policies and media are designed to protect Putin (take that approval rating graph above and go look at news headlines from the times that it dips, big stories about Putin's strong actions domestically and internationally crop up whenever his numbers are dipping). In the West, just as much manipulation is happening but it's designed around protecting the system. That's why the banks can't fail, why we can't have a president like Bernie (or Trump), it's also why (to reference that Adam Curtis documentary) middle eastern countries can be enemies or friends depending on the narrative that's being driven.

Obviously the system isn't a person or a group of people, it's a natural side effect of democracy where as a society we have come to believe the very fact we vote and elect our leaders directly means the lights will stay on, the banks will stay open and the supermarkets will have food on the shelves. But it's protected as if it were a person because we value stability above everything else, and you can see that when the system is threatened (ie 9/11) pretty much any response is justifiable.

And that's what's happening in Russia now, Putin is threatened by radical islam, not just ISIS but the rebels in Syria as well, he's also threatened by western sanctions and the EU creeping ever closer to his borders (because our system is a direct threat to him as defacto ruler of Russia), so all these actions are his attempt to counteract these threats.

I'm not saying they aren't terrible actions, they are, but what I am saying is that there is a much greater equivalence between the West and Russia than you can see on the surface of the news and responding with 'Fuck Russia' is failing to understand the bigger picture.

 

[Piecake]

It is however doing a lot better than it was in the 90s.

Oil determines the strength of Russia's economy.

Russia's economy sucked in the 90s because oil prices sucked. Russia's economy was good in the 2000s because oil prices were booming. Russia was corrupt and run by oligarchs in the 90s just like it is corrupt and run by oligarchs today.

 

[Mung]

But again, so what? Let's say that's true. Why on Earth do you feel the need to defend it? How about calling out both sides then instead of pulling some bullshit about how if both sides do it that's just the way things are and sorry smaller nations, you don't matter. That's condoning imperialism. You keep bringing these things up as if you think it's some kind of profound revelation the rest of us hasn't thought of but guess what, it's kind of international relations 101. It's neither new nor profound.

What is your motivation for arguing that the eastern European nations should have been told to get back in line and stay under Russia's thumb after the collapse of the USSR?

Again, it's not condoning, or defending. I don't have a horse in this terrible race. I'm happy to say that both sides are in the wrong. And I wish the world wasn't like this. I would prefer a world where no nation is dominant or has hegemony. But, in this situation, it is not that one side is good and totally in the right and the other are evil/bad and totally wrong either, which is often how it is presented. Of course its not new and profound, or a revelation. Yet people still argue completely one dimensionally.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Oil determines the strength of Russia's economy.

Russia's economy sucked in the 90s because oil prices sucked. Russia's economy was good in the 2000s because oil prices were booming. Russia was corrupt and run by oligarchs in the 90s just like it is corrupt and run by oligarchs today.

Didn't Putin kill/marginalize all the oligarchs?

 

[zoukka]

Didn't Putin kill/marginalize all the oligarchs?

No, not at all.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

Give it a rest OP. There are already plenty find plenty of Russia bashing threads in this forum for you to vent

Geopolitics has changed pretty significantly since the 19th century. Saying otherwise is just completely ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding of history.

And we aren't moving towards a bi-polar world. Russia certainly isn't going to be that power. If you are referring to China, they are still well behind the United States in both hard and soft power and have a lot more stumbling blocks to get passed before they even have a chance of rivaling the United States' power and influence.

China should become a true global power in the next few decades. It has more or less everything it needs to accomplish that.
Will they usurp the US any time soon? Probably not. But they will still work as a counterweight for the US.